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WSOP hand - how would you have played it?

dowzerdowzer Member Posts: 218
edited July 2009 in Poker Chat
As mentioned on last nights phone in and on Tikays excellent blog (https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_blog&plckBlogId=Blog:984622ff-5ae6-4357-a087-da942593ca53&plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&userId=984622ff-5ae6-4357-a087-da942593ca53&plckPostId=Blog%3a984622ff-5ae6-4357-a087-da942593ca53Post%3a16d4732f-cd41-4ec2-8a1c-226e295ca55e&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest) there was an "interesting" early hand played at the WSOP.

I will quote from Tikays blog:

"They started wih 30,000 chips, Blinds 50-100, & this was the THIRD hand of the day, 4 minutes into the first 2 hour (!) Blind Level.

Mid position man (A-K) makes it 350, Button Min-Raises to 700, Mid-Pos man shoves for his entire 29,650, (!) & Button man calls rapido with his Pocket Aces. Flop 10-J-Q."

How would you play AK this early on in the WSOP where it has cost $10k to be sitting there?

Thoughts?
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    Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited July 2009
    In Response to WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    As mentioned on last nights phone in and on Tikays excellent blog ( https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_blog&plckBlogId=Blog:984622ff-5ae6-4357-a087-da942593ca53&plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&userId=984622ff-5ae6-4357-a087-da942593ca53&plckPostId=Blog%3a984622ff-5ae6-4357-a087-da942593ca53Post%3a16d4732f-cd41-4ec2-8a1c-226e295ca55e&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest ) there was an "interesting" early hand played at the WSOP. I will quote from Tikays blog: "They started wih 30,000 chips, Blinds 50-100, & this was the THIRD hand of the day, 4 minutes into the first 2 hour (!) Blind Level. Mid position man (A-K) makes it 350, Button Min-Raises to 700, Mid-Pos man shoves for his entire 29,650, (!) & Button man calls rapido with his Pocket Aces. Flop 10-J-Q." How would you play AK this early on in the WSOP where it has cost $10k to be sitting there? Thoughts?
    Posted by dowzer
    Definitly wouldn't have pushed all-in, just a re-raise then see what happens.
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    dowzerdowzer Member Posts: 218
    edited July 2009
    Thinking about it the blinds are 50/100 and he raises to 350 so standard raise - the button reraises. At this stage the original raiser has only committed 1% of his stack so could easily fold or, like you said, reraise to say 2000 to see where he is and then if the button comes over the top he can fold without losing too many chips.

    Having said that I would probably have just called the reraise and seen a flop fairly cheaply especially as on only the third hand you cant have a read already (unless they knew each other I guess), its the biggest poker event in the world and its only Ace high.
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    phil12ukphil12uk Member Posts: 2,856
    edited July 2009
    It's just a ridiculous play by the AK. End of.
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    mr_mbromr_mbro Member Posts: 1,152
    edited July 2009
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    Thinking about it the blinds are 50/100 and he raises to 350 so standard raise - the button reraises. At this stage the original raiser has only committed 1% of his stack so could easily fold or, like you said, reraise to say 2000 to see where he is and then if the button comes over the top he can fold without losing too many chips. Having said that I would probably have just called the reraise and seen a flop fairly cheaply especially as on only the third hand you cant have a read already (unless they knew each other I guess), its the biggest poker event in the world and its only Ace high.
    Posted by dowzer
    Hi Dowser,
    I agree with you that a call or small reraise is the way to go.
    What hand would you put the reraiser on, not aq but high pair 10s upover, when he got called i bit he thought oh sugar.
    As it was he probably thinks hes the greatest player on hitting the miracle flop and doubling up but it wolud be interesting to see where this player finishes, not to far with play like that, as i can't see that type of luck lasting 7 days.
    col

    col
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    NoseyBonkNoseyBonk Member Posts: 6,167
    edited July 2009
    Good job it wasn't Phil Hellmuth who had the AA, Vegas would have been nuked by now!

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    JingleMaJingleMa Member Posts: 1,319
    edited July 2009
    Crazy play on third hand, although from a purely statistical viewpoint, perhaps not. AA was the only hand against AK which made him an overwhelming dog, even KK meant that button man would be calling his whole tournament life five mins in with a 30% chance of going bust against any ace! Thats a very serious decision to make and any hand from qq down is coin flip at worst for AK. So I'm guessing AK man obviously liked those odds for a quick early double up. Still a crazy play in this structure though! (or was it genius?)
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    _AppleMac__AppleMac_ Member Posts: 126
    edited July 2009
    Definatley wouldnt call it genius... he was dominated...!

    Dunno the exact odds but must but around an 85% underdog... got extremely lucky...!
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    SoLackSoLack Member Posts: 2,736
    edited July 2009
    Would anyone have folded the AA after the all in?  Bearing in mind it was the third hand.
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    dowzerdowzer Member Posts: 218
    edited July 2009
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    Crazy play on third hand, although from a purely statistical viewpoint, perhaps not. AA was the only hand against AK which made him an overwhelming dog, even KK meant that button man would be calling his whole tournament life five mins in with a 30% chance of going bust against any ace! Thats a very serious decision to make and any hand from qq down is coin flip at worst for AK. So I'm guessing AK man obviously liked those odds for a quick early double up. Still a crazy play in this structure though! (or was it genius?)
    Posted by JingleMa
    You can't like those odds -  the best he could hope for was an underpair where he is a 50/50 (more or less) so is it worth an all in pre flop? I don't think he should have folded to the re-raise pre flop and, lets face it, once the flop came down no one bar the guy who lost would grumble as he called the raise and got lucky but I just cant see the logic in going all in pre flop with ace hight when you have only committed 1% of your stack this early on.
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    dowzerdowzer Member Posts: 218
    edited July 2009
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    Would anyone have folded the AA after the all in?  Bearing in mind it was the third hand.
    Posted by SoLack
    Against one opponent pre flop you can never fold Aces IMHO regardless of the circumstances or situation.
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    GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited July 2009
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    Would anyone have folded the AA after the all in?  Bearing in mind it was the third hand.
    Posted by SoLack
    Quite simply, NO

    OK, i know the stakes are high and you start with 300bbs with 2 hour levels, but how can anyone refuse a great chance to double up early with the best possible starting hand.

    If the person that shoved all in has KK and spikes a set so be it, if he has AA too and four flushes it, well thats horrific, and if he has AK..... then he is a fool and you got hideously unlucky.


    I doubt anyone would fold AA here. Correct me if im wrong.


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    JingleMaJingleMa Member Posts: 1,319
    edited July 2009
    Yes Apple, he was an 89% dog if suited and 94% if not, but thats looking at it purely from hindsight. its very hard for the other guy to call with anything other than aa (and as solack is hinting, maybe hard even with aa in such a high stake, long structured tournie), with kk he is 30% dog and any other hand 45% dog at worst! So those were the odds he was considering. Only two hands where he is less than 45% dog and only one hand less than 30%.

    Dowser, totally agree with you, in this tournie at this stage, with the respective chip stacks of both players, I dont think there is any logic in the move he made. Therefore, its gotta be either crazy or genius! 8- />

    And Solack, good question, but I agree with greg on this, I would have a small think and then would have to call.
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    JingleMaJingleMa Member Posts: 1,319
    edited July 2009
    Sorry Apple, in previous post I obviously meant "against kk", not "with kk"
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    lemster127lemster127 Member Posts: 41
    edited July 2009
    what a pointless thread!!!

    He won the hand didnt he,took a gamble,it paid off,isnt that what more than half of this game about,calculating gambles?

    It was obviously the right play yestaday becase he won the hand.
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    FBSFBS Member Posts: 131
    edited July 2009
    WSOP main event ...

    I fold the Aces,

    I've only put in 700 chips so regardless of what I hold there is no way I want to risk my entire tournament so early.

    Yes,  I'm a big favourite to double up, but I'd much rather pick up a string of small pots than try to get one big one witth such a penalty for getting unlucky.

    If all in guy is still around later I know I'll get my chips back sooner or later so whats the rush ?

    It's a long tourney
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    J-HartiganJ-Hartigan Member Posts: 2,756
    edited July 2009
    The punchline to this story?

    After the hand, the A-K donkey was overheard muttering, "I would have made the same move with nines!"

    Jeez!!!

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    dowzerdowzer Member Posts: 218
    edited July 2009
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    The punchline to this story? After the hand, the A-K donkey was overheard muttering, "I would have made the same move with nines!" Jeez!!!
    Posted by J-Hartigan
    I bet every player in the place is hoping for him on their table - talk about giving tells!
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    GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited July 2009
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    WSOP main event ... I fold the Aces, I've only put in 700 chips so regardless of what I hold there is no way I want to risk my entire tournament so early. Yes,  I'm a big favourite to double up, but I'd much rather pick up a string of small pots than try to get one big one witth such a penalty for getting unlucky. If all in guy is still around later I know I'll get my chips back sooner or later so whats the rush ? It's a long tourney
    Posted by FBS

    OK, I can see where you are coming from, you would rather outplay this guy over a longer period  than risk it ALL on one hand, but how far do you want to take this cautious approach?
     
    Say in the same situation the guy flat calls your min reraise preflop and you see a flop with your AA. It comes down 6 10 A rainbow. You have the stone cold nuts with little danger to your hand. Will you fold here if the guy shoves all in on the flop? Would you seriously fold and keep your 29000 odd behind? Silly question, its an insta call, but you see my point?

    By the way, you call, he turns over 89 o/s and spikes a 7 on the river...to give him the winning hand.

    It may be the WSOP, but its a poker tournment at the end of the day... you have to take a big gamble at some point so why not with AA preflop on your first hand? A chance to double up and dominate the table... yes please:)
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    EyemanEyeman Member Posts: 1,039
    edited July 2009
    I fully agree with Greg.
    Anyone seriously saying that they fold the AA pre-flop against a single opponent is, in my opinion, playing worse poker than the guy who shoved all in the AK 3rd hand. In this tournament, after a day or so, you might be forced to shove with Q3 or similar - I bet you'd wished you'd shoved with AA and got a tidy stack instead.
    In poker, you want to put your chips in ahead - preferably well ahead. If you lose it's just bad luck - you play the percentages. Good players will always win more than chancers, that why I can smile when my aces get cracked by 3 5 - next time I know I'm getting his chips...and the time after....
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    J-HartiganJ-Hartigan Member Posts: 2,756
    edited July 2009
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it?:
    In Response to Re: WSOP hand - how would you have played it? : OK, I can see where you are coming from, you would rather outplay this guy over a longer period  than risk it ALL on one hand, but how far do you want to take this cautious approach?   Say in the same situation the guy flat calls your min reraise preflop and you see a flop with your AA. It comes down 6 10 A rainbow. You have the stone cold nuts with little danger to your hand. Will you fold here if the guy shoves all in on the flop? Would you seriously fold and keep your 29000 odd behind? Silly question, its an insta call, but you see my point? By the way, you call, he turns over 89 o/s and spikes a 7 on the river...to give him the winning hand. It may be the WSOP, but its a poker tournment at the end of the day... you have to take a big gamble at some point so why not with AA preflop on your first hand? A chance to double up and dominate the table... yes please:)
    Posted by GREGHOGG

    Spot on analysis from a WSOP veteran :-)
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