In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : Great contribution to a discussion thread....NOT. If you have nothing to add.....just STFU...(please) Posted by MAXALLY
Stop bringing this socialist garbage into an online poker forum. It's boring. This is a business which operates in a free market, in a regulated industry, within a capitalist society. It has no obligation to incorporate left wing egalitarian dogma into its business strategy.
Good post maxally. It is ashame sky has this promotion, and it is "inclusive to all", if you have a look at the leaederboard for the "lower stakes" then it is filled with players from higher levels. I played a few DYM's and the player who is currently top was on every table, pretty much folding every hand, playing 12 plus tables at a time. Myself i can play 4 tables ata time, cant play anymore due to computer/ size of sky poker tables. Let's be honest, this promotion was only going to benefit players that were able to play this type of game over many tables, 4 plus. There was little to no chance that a regular player could ever achieve anything from this. I'm not saying this is necassirily is bad, but lets just be honest about it. The whole point in this is to promote more play, higher rake as already mentioned. I don't know the stats maybe it will result in more rake, but a part of me thinks it will just have the consqequence of certain players playing a lot of games to win x amount, £300/ £200 or whatever the case may be. It is just ashame that players that otherwise would never play a £1dym are now all of a sudden playing £1DYMS, 30p turbo dyms, and 50p DYM it is rediculouse when you think about it to win £100 odd quid. It's also ashame that certain well known sky poker players have got involved in this thread to justify this promotion, contrary to the OP, when they are playing 1) at a level they would normally never play at 2) are grinding this out for a few hunred quid max. This is unfortunate, that they feel they must do this for a few hundred quid, surely with your rolls, this few hunred quid was not worth your while, yet you are here playing every low stakes game to achieve it. This promotion only benefited those who were already benefited. At the end of the day, it is what it is, but the only ones gaining from this were you reg's no one else Posted by LARSON7
Im a low stakes player who normally only plays cash or tournaments a few tables at a time, but i think this is a great promotion, i know i havwnt got the ability to challenge for the top of the leaderboard but i have managed to get on the leaderboard playing small stake dyms 4 or 5 tables at a time, i only play for a few hours a day and so far i have been making profit as i think the fields are softer as people arent too worried about winning these dyms they are just playing for the hand count.... the players who play 12+ tables at a time deserve the extra money because of the extra rake they bring to sky, i would one day like to be able to play 12 tables profitabably and i think this promotion has given me the impetus to try and do so.
In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : Stop bringing this socialist garbage into an online poker forum. It's boring. This is a business which operates in a free market, in a regulated industry, within a capitalist society. It has no obligation to incorporate left wing egalitarian dogma into its business strategy. Posted by BrownnDog
You seem to be off on a tangent, nothing about this thread has to do with the left wing etc etc, read what you wrote and actually tally it up with the discussion, focue. I know you are probably studying politics/ sociology at uni and are getting excited by using big words on an internet forum. But please go back to what i said above, focus and deal with the issues of the OP and dont go off on some pseudo political nonsense.
In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : Im a low stakes player who normally only plays cash or tournaments a few tables at a time, but i think this is a great promotion, i know i havwnt got the ability to challenge for the top of the leaderboard but i have managed to get on the leaderboard playing small stake dyms 4 or 5 tables at a time, i only play for a few hours a day and so far i have been making profit as i think the fields are softer as people arent too worried about winning these dyms they are just playing for the hand count.... the players who play 12+ tables at a time deserve the extra money because of the extra rake they bring to sky, i would one day like to be able to play 12 tables profitabably and i think this promotion has given me the impetus to try and do so. Posted by jordz16
Mate, people that are playing 12 tables plus, not always, but in regards to this challenge would never be playing these types of games, they are just doing what they can to get this cash. To many of them it's loose change efficetively.
It would be brilliant if someone like you could "win" this, if you "cash" in this i will be delighted for you and hope you do. The people that are 12 plus tabling don't deserve extra money, for a mind numbing hours folding lots of hands to have played the "most" hands.
It is a misguided promotion, which clearly was going to be lacthed onto by certain players.
Good post maxally. It is ashame sky has this promotion, and it is "inclusive to all", if you have a look at the leaederboard for the "lower stakes" then it is filled with players from higher levels. I played a few DYM's and the player who is currently top was on every table, pretty much folding every hand, playing 12 plus tables at a time. Myself i can play 4 tables ata time, cant play anymore due to computer/ size of sky poker tables. Let's be honest, this promotion was only going to benefit players that were able to play this type of game over many tables, 4 plus. There was little to no chance that a regular player could ever achieve anything from this. I'm not saying this is necassirily is bad, but lets just be honest about it. The whole point in this is to promote more play, higher rake as already mentioned. I don't know the stats maybe it will result in more rake, but a part of me thinks it will just have the consqequence of certain players playing a lot of games to win x amount, £300/ £200 or whatever the case may be. It is just ashame that players that otherwise would never play a £1dym are now all of a sudden playing £1DYMS, 30p turbo dyms, and 50p DYM it is rediculouse when you think about it to win £100 odd quid. It's also ashame that certain well known sky poker players have got involved in this thread to justify this promotion, contrary to the OP, when they are playing 1) at a level they would normally never play at 2) are grinding this out for a few hunred quid max. This is unfortunate, that they feel they must do this for a few hundred quid, surely with your rolls, this few hunred quid was not worth your while, yet you are here playing every low stakes game to achieve it. This promotion only benefited those who were already benefited. At the end of the day, it is what it is, but the only ones gaining from this were you reg's no one else Posted by LARSON7
Well the bold part is obviously aimed at me, feel free in future to be more direct and call me out if that's how you feel.
I have said in this thread, my diary and in the chatbox that I fancied doing this for the challenge. Take that as truth or garbage, up to you.
Where's the cut off? What roll should you have to play? What is too much? What is too little and you shouldn't be encouraged to play these games with the potential to go bust as per the OP? What are the rules? While people free fine to tell me I shouldn't be going for this, no one is telling me who should be?
This is a completely inclusive promotion. Look at the tiers. A hand at a 60p DYM counts the same as a hand in the mini primo. 60p DYMs run much more often than the £5.50 ones. Yes if you have a very low bankroll (I'm talking sub £25) then maybe you won't have the opportunity at either tier. But it's the most level playing field for a promotion as it could possibly be. Unlike the cash rake races we've had in the past or the old cash leaderboard, the vast majority of players can get a slice of this. It'll take hard work and a lot of grinding obviously, however that would always be the case whether it was a hand count or a leaderboard with points. It's not like some of the old ones which would look purely at the rake spent and calculate from there. This promo is as fair as a tournament promo can be.
You say I'm trying to justify this promotion. Offer me a counter point then. Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point. Find anything I have put on this thread and do that. Gees, it's not like I haven't given you plenty of material to fish in.
Pretend sky poker is a pub,you can enjoy youself with a couple of pints or you can get really drunk every day and end up ill,its all a matter of choice and controll
Well the bold part is obviously aimed at me, feel free in future to be more direct and call me out if that's how you feel.
The post was aimed to people who would not normally play at the lower levels, which does indeed inlcude you Tommy.
I have said in this thread, my diary and in the chatbox that I fancied doing this for the challenge. Take that as truth or garbage, up to you.
So do it for the challenge, what i am saying is all of a sudden we have players that are playing £1, 30p 50 Dyms, just to achieve this goal. Players who would otherwise never be playing this (i don't know if you have been playing these). I would think if you are going to take on this challenge you would be doing it at your own level. I know you play a lot of DYM's £5 - plus, normally the highest level DYMs there are.
Where's the cut off? What roll should you have to play? What is too much? What is too little and you shouldn't be encouraged to play these games with the potential to go bust as per the OP? What are the rules? While people free fine to tell me I shouldn't be going for this, no one is telling me who should be?
To be honest, as per my original post, i don't see why certain players are playing at such micro stakes for what is effictively not a lot of money for them. Ok, it is a "challenge" for you, so keep the "challenge" within your "bankroll", as when a lot of the "top" players are playing at this "lower" level it precludes lower stake players from actually gaining.
This is a completely inclusive promotion. Look at the tiers. A hand at a 60p DYM counts the same as a hand in the mini primo. 60p DYMs run much more often than the £5.50 ones. Yes if you have a very low bankroll (I'm talking sub £25) then maybe you won't have the opportunity at either tier. But it's the most level playing field for a promotion as it could possibly be. Unlike the cash rake races we've had in the past or the old cash leaderboard, the vast majority of players can get a slice of this. It'll take hard work and a lot of grinding obviously, however that would always be the case whether it was a hand count or a leaderboard with points. It's not like some of the old ones which would look purely at the rake spent and calculate from there. This promo is as fair as a tournament promo can be.
Tell me, how is it "inclusive" when certian players can play 8 plus tables at the same time? This could consist of 4 30p Turbo DYMs and 4 50p DYMs, sometimes more than 8 tables of these types of games. If you need me to elaborate on this, i post you the names of players that never play at this level, yet are for this promo, and are within the top 20. Indeed the vast majority are regulars from the higher levels.
You say I'm trying to justify this promotion. Offer me a counter point then. Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point. Find anything I have put on this thread and do that. Gees, it's not like I haven't given you plenty of material to fish in.
Quite simply this promo is to increase rake. 10k is offered as prizes, so sky needs to make in excess of the 10k in rake the meet there costs. I've not done the sums, so don't know if they are making a profit from this or not, I take it they will. "offer me a counter point"But, let's not call it a promotion open to all, you and i both know well there was only ever going to certain players would gain from this for the reasons mentioned above.
"Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point."
I am pretty sure i have done this, i have not been disrespectful or dissmissive and i apologise if youfeel that.
Everyone has opinions, i have included mines herein.
You are an intelligent, free thinking person Tommy, you have put up your case, as i have mine. No disrespect is meant, however i feel it was something worth saying.
I also feel it was a very worthwhile post by the OP the highlight the issues of this current promotion,
In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : You seem to be off on a tangent, nothing about this thread has to do with the left wing etc etc, read what you wrote and actually tally it up with the discussion, focue. I know you are probably studying politics/ sociology at uni and are getting excited by using big words on an internet forum. But please go back to what i said above, focus and deal with the issues of the OP and dont go off on some pseudo political nonsense. Posted by LARSON7[/QUOTE
Actually my time at university ended a long time ago and, as it happens, I read English and History. I would also add I neither consider any of the words I used in my original post to be 'big' nor did I get 'excited' by using them (what a strange thing that would be). And I don't think most people would either (if you do, may I suggest a thesaurus and, in regards to the latter, perhaps find something more stimulating)
I notice instead of having any actual arguments regarding my post, you resort to some sloppy and quite pathetic ad hominem insults. Thanks (but do try harder).
I'mgrateful for your suggestion that I review my post and 'tally it up' with the op. I did. And guess what? It still weighs up perfectly well (thanks again!)
You end with 'don'tgo off on some pseudo political nonsense'(are these 'big' words too? Was it exciting?) er, thanks for the recommendation.
People are responsible for their own actions. If someone falls of a cliff it is because they got too close not because the council didnt put a fence up at the end of the cliff. Posted by jonjo75
You, obviously have limited experience of punters with gambling conditions!
Some people have a chemical reaction in the brain, commonly known as a red mist, where common sense goes into oblivion. All they can think about is gambling to get there money back!
Promotions that encourage excessive game play, are fine for most players, but for a small minority can be likened to the crack co caine of poker.
In my opinion, responsible gambling, is not excessive play, sleep deprivation and exceeding personal bank rolls.
I've played a number of sit and go's since the promotion started and there are many players who seem to be on every table 24 hours a day. There are a finite number of prizes!
So, many participants are going to end up exhausted and disappointed.
If a prize is to be awarded to encourage increased play on the site should it not reflect skill as well as volume?
I am not having a dig! I have played against you in MTTs and know you aquit yourself well at the table!
But you are fortunate to have good bankroll management skills.
Bud you were being rude to Maxally, and your post was completetely pointless and futile. You were talking about the "left" and "socialism" which is no where mentioned in this forum until you brought it up. Posted by LARSON7
It was never my intention to be rude to the OP.
My post was in reference to the sense of entiltment some people have on here. That people who spend more money and time here should be treated equally to those who dont. i.e people who have less money to spend here should be equal, in the eyes of the business, to those customers that actually generate them more profit.
In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : Stop bringing this socialist garbage into an online poker forum. It's boring. This is a business which operates in a free market, in a regulated industry, within a capitalist society. It has no obligation to incorporate left wing egalitarian dogma into its business strategy. Posted by BrownnDog
I dont mean to be rude, but I have read many posts on the forum written by Maxally.
Most are relevant, contain humour and are positive contributions.
He is a popular member of the community!
The few posts you've written IMHO are condescending, malicious and offer destructive rather than constructive criticism.
I agree there will always be two sides to a story but do you have to be so rude with your thoughts?
I did not read English and my spelling is attrocious but at least I understand the words and the feelings in Maxally's posts. I have great difficulty saying the same about yours.
In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : I dont mean to be rude, but I have read many posts on the forum written by Maxally. Most are relevant, contain humour and are positive contributions. He is a popular member of the community! Of the few posts you've written Posted by DUNMIDOSH
Im sure he is. And I hold nothing against him personally. But surely that doesnt mean I cant disagree with him?
In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : Im sure he is. And I hold nothing against him personally. But surely that doesnt mean I cant disagree with him? Posted by BrownnDog
You can disagree with anyone, but not be rude at the same time. You just seem like a negative person.
I agree with the person above in relation to your posts.
In Response to Re: THE BIG DEAL - The bigger issue discussion thread. : You can disagree with anyone, but not be rude at the same time. You just seem like a negative person. I agree with the person above in relation to your posts. Posted by LARSON7
You seem to take great satisfaction from calling people negative...
Well the bold part is obviously aimed at me, feel free in future to be more direct and call me out if that's how you feel. The post was aimed to people who would not normally play at the lower levels, which does indeed inlcude you Tommy. I have said in this thread, my diary and in the chatbox that I fancied doing this for the challenge. Take that as truth or garbage, up to you. So do it for the challenge, what i am saying is all of a sudden we have players that are playing £1, 30p 50 Dyms, just to achieve this goal. Players who would otherwise never be playing this (i don't know if you have been playing these). I would think if you are going to take on this challenge you would be doing it at your own level. I know you play a lot of DYM's £5 - plus, normally the highest level DYMs there are. Where's the cut off? What roll should you have to play? What is too much? What is too little and you shouldn't be encouraged to play these games with the potential to go bust as per the OP? What are the rules? While people free fine to tell me I shouldn't be going for this, no one is telling me who should be? To be honest, as per my original post, i don't see why certain players are playing at such micro stakes for what is effictively not a lot of money for them. Ok, it is a "challenge" for you, so keep the "challenge" within your "bankroll", as when a lot of the "top" players are playing at this "lower" level it precludes lower stake players from actually gaining. This is a completely inclusive promotion. Look at the tiers. A hand at a 60p DYM counts the same as a hand in the mini primo. 60p DYMs run much more often than the £5.50 ones. Yes if you have a very low bankroll (I'm talking sub £25) then maybe you won't have the opportunity at either tier. But it's the most level playing field for a promotion as it could possibly be. Unlike the cash rake races we've had in the past or the old cash leaderboard, the vast majority of players can get a slice of this. It'll take hard work and a lot of grinding obviously, however that would always be the case whether it was a hand count or a leaderboard with points. It's not like some of the old ones which would look purely at the rake spent and calculate from there. This promo is as fair as a tournament promo can be. Tell me, how is it "inclusive" when certian players can play 8 plus tables at the same time? This could consist of 4 30p Turbo DYMs and 4 50p DYMs, sometimes more than 8 tables of these types of games. If you need me to elaborate on this, i post you the names of players that never play at this level, yet are for this promo, and are within the top 20. Indeed the vast majority are regulars from the higher levels. You say I'm trying to justify this promotion. Offer me a counter point then. Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point. Find anything I have put on this thread and do that. Gees, it's not like I haven't given you plenty of material to fish in. Quite simply this promo is to increase rake. 10k is offered as prizes, so sky needs to make in excess of the 10k in rake the meet there costs. I've not done the sums, so don't know if they are making a profit from this or not, I take it they will. "offer me a counter point"But, let's not call it a promotion open to all, you and i both know well there was only ever going to certain players would gain from this for the reasons mentioned above. "Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point." I am pretty sure i have done this, i have not been disrespectful or dissmissive and i apologise if youfeel that. Everyone has opinions, i have included mines herein. You are an intelligent, free thinking person Tommy, you have put up your case, as i have mine. No disrespect is meant, however i feel it was something worth saying. I also feel it was a very worthwhile post by the OP the highlight the issues of this current promotion, Posted by LARSON7
First up when I said I thought you were being disrespectful, what I meant by this was the first post I replied to in my opinion had quite a passive aggressive tone which intimated that Regs such as myself were scraping around for a few extra pennies in an unseemly manner. To be honest what you said wasn't the most offensive thing I have read on the matter, you were just the one at the point I had had enough. The post I am replying to is a much better and reasoned reply and as such I withdraw my earlier comments about you being disrespectful.
However I do feel it's unfair to say that a certain amount of money is or isn't a lot to someone. None of us have an idea who is under it, what rolls people are playing, what debts they have etc. I was taught by D the Elder long ago that a pound is a ton of money for someone who doesn't have it.
You said that if I wanted a challenge just do a higher tier. To be frank I felt that wasn't tricky enough. It's become clear that I won't win both tiers now but I'm much happier trying to have a go at both than just going for one.
Finally for now I don't think it's fair that people such as myself and many others who have supported STTs and pushed for more promotions in this area be excluded from areas of said promotion due to a perceived moral boundary which in my opinion doesn't exist.
That all being said you raise valid points and argument in this post and I respect your opinion which differs from mine.
That'll probably be my last word on this subject. This isn't aimed at Larson but I am very disappointed with some of the comments made in this thread and elsewhere. I don't want to lose friends over this so I'm drawing a line under it and walking away.
It's brought another dimenstion to low stakes DYMs, players from higher stakes dropping down and trying to lengthen the duration of each tourney so more hands are played (giving short stacks "walks" on the bubble etc.). In other circumstances it would be noted as possible collusion, but this is not the case here.
Comments
Peace and love, folks. Peace and love.
It would be brilliant if someone like you could "win" this, if you "cash" in this i will be delighted for you and hope you do. The people that are 12 plus tabling don't deserve extra money, for a mind numbing hours folding lots of hands to have played the "most" hands.
It is a misguided promotion, which clearly was going to be lacthed onto by certain players.
I have said in this thread, my diary and in the chatbox that I fancied doing this for the challenge. Take that as truth or garbage, up to you.
Where's the cut off? What roll should you have to play? What is too much? What is too little and you shouldn't be encouraged to play these games with the potential to go bust as per the OP? What are the rules? While people free fine to tell me I shouldn't be going for this, no one is telling me who should be?
This is a completely inclusive promotion. Look at the tiers. A hand at a 60p DYM counts the same as a hand in the mini primo. 60p DYMs run much more often than the £5.50 ones. Yes if you have a very low bankroll (I'm talking sub £25) then maybe you won't have the opportunity at either tier. But it's the most level playing field for a promotion as it could possibly be. Unlike the cash rake races we've had in the past or the old cash leaderboard, the vast majority of players can get a slice of this. It'll take hard work and a lot of grinding obviously, however that would always be the case whether it was a hand count or a leaderboard with points. It's not like some of the old ones which would look purely at the rake spent and calculate from there. This promo is as fair as a tournament promo can be.
You say I'm trying to justify this promotion. Offer me a counter point then. Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point. Find anything I have put on this thread and do that. Gees, it's not like I haven't given you plenty of material to fish in.
Pretend sky poker is a pub,you can enjoy youself with a couple of pints or you can get really drunk every day and end up ill,its all a matter of choice and controll
Well the bold part is obviously aimed at me, feel free in future to be more direct and call me out if that's how you feel.
The post was aimed to people who would not normally play at the lower levels, which does indeed inlcude you Tommy.
I have said in this thread, my diary and in the chatbox that I fancied doing this for the challenge. Take that as truth or garbage, up to you.
So do it for the challenge, what i am saying is all of a sudden we have players that are playing £1, 30p 50 Dyms, just to achieve this goal. Players who would otherwise never be playing this (i don't know if you have been playing these). I would think if you are going to take on this challenge you would be doing it at your own level. I know you play a lot of DYM's £5 - plus, normally the highest level DYMs there are.
Where's the cut off? What roll should you have to play? What is too much? What is too little and you shouldn't be encouraged to play these games with the potential to go bust as per the OP? What are the rules? While people free fine to tell me I shouldn't be going for this, no one is telling me who should be?
To be honest, as per my original post, i don't see why certain players are playing at such micro stakes for what is effictively not a lot of money for them. Ok, it is a "challenge" for you, so keep the "challenge" within your "bankroll", as when a lot of the "top" players are playing at this "lower" level it precludes lower stake players from actually gaining.
This is a completely inclusive promotion. Look at the tiers. A hand at a 60p DYM counts the same as a hand in the mini primo. 60p DYMs run much more often than the £5.50 ones. Yes if you have a very low bankroll (I'm talking sub £25) then maybe you won't have the opportunity at either tier. But it's the most level playing field for a promotion as it could possibly be. Unlike the cash rake races we've had in the past or the old cash leaderboard, the vast majority of players can get a slice of this. It'll take hard work and a lot of grinding obviously, however that would always be the case whether it was a hand count or a leaderboard with points. It's not like some of the old ones which would look purely at the rake spent and calculate from there. This promo is as fair as a tournament promo can be.
Tell me, how is it "inclusive" when certian players can play 8 plus tables at the same time? This could consist of 4 30p Turbo DYMs and 4 50p DYMs, sometimes more than 8 tables of these types of games. If you need me to elaborate on this, i post you the names of players that never play at this level, yet are for this promo, and are within the top 20. Indeed the vast majority are regulars from the higher levels.
You say I'm trying to justify this promotion. Offer me a counter point then. Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point. Find anything I have put on this thread and do that. Gees, it's not like I haven't given you plenty of material to fish in.
Quite simply this promo is to increase rake. 10k is offered as prizes, so sky needs to make in excess of the 10k in rake the meet there costs. I've not done the sums, so don't know if they are making a profit from this or not, I take it they will. "offer me a counter point"But, let's not call it a promotion open to all, you and i both know well there was only ever going to certain players would gain from this for the reasons mentioned above.
"Bring anything I have stated under scrutiny but offer a reasoned argument against it other than such disrespectful dismissive without any sort of counter point."
I am pretty sure i have done this, i have not been disrespectful or dissmissive and i apologise if youfeel that.
Everyone has opinions, i have included mines herein.
You are an intelligent, free thinking person Tommy, you have put up your case, as i have mine. No disrespect is meant, however i feel it was something worth saying.
I also feel it was a very worthwhile post by the OP the highlight the issues of this current promotion,
You were talking about the "left" and "socialism" which is no where mentioned in this forum until you brought it up.
I agree with the person above in relation to your posts.
However I do feel it's unfair to say that a certain amount of money is or isn't a lot to someone. None of us have an idea who is under it, what rolls people are playing, what debts they have etc. I was taught by D the Elder long ago that a pound is a ton of money for someone who doesn't have it.
You said that if I wanted a challenge just do a higher tier. To be frank I felt that wasn't tricky enough. It's become clear that I won't win both tiers now but I'm much happier trying to have a go at both than just going for one.
Finally for now I don't think it's fair that people such as myself and many others who have supported STTs and pushed for more promotions in this area be excluded from areas of said promotion due to a perceived moral boundary which in my opinion doesn't exist.
That all being said you raise valid points and argument in this post and I respect your opinion which differs from mine.
That'll probably be my last word on this subject. This isn't aimed at Larson but I am very disappointed with some of the comments made in this thread and elsewhere. I don't want to lose friends over this so I'm drawing a line under it and walking away.
Good luck everyone.