So 8 times you call and probably fold (sometimes the best hand) or lose so over these 8 times you lose £4.80
1 time you flop a set, and let's assume you stack him 100% of the time (which you won't) you win £4.15
= losing play
AND that's based on a pretty perfect scenario, sometimes you won't stack him when you hit, sometimes you'll hit and still lose, sometimes you'll miss but still put more money on certain flops and lose more than just 60p.
Imo, shoving will definitely be +EV against your average bad short stacker. Occasionally you'll be crushed with only 20% equity, but you'll be flipping alot, 70/30 a fair amount, and probably a few times be 80/20 v a few smaller PPs. You also will get folds sometimes.
For the most part, forget about feel and think about maths.
In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : all of which makes perfect sense, dev, if he had a bigger stack to win. but Rancid's point about implied odds is that against a small stack, calling WILL lose you money over time, however you play on the flop, because you won't win enough on those times you get his stack to pay for all the misses. Posted by GELDY
yes I get it mate, I do. i'm just saying that i'm always willing to go up against a short stack,even if i'm not getting the exact odds. yes i'm only flopping a set 1 in 7.5 not I in 9 but i'm not always going to have to hit that to win.
You can take a horse to water, but you can't force them to drink it - keep calling then gl Posted by rancid
i'm not going to 'keep calling' as you put it. I realise the maths side of the game is important and maybe I've got it wrong here..just. I don't think with the 30p I've already invested that it's out by very much though,taking that into consideration 8 or 9 times,as well.
I always try to play optimally and I know that to 'keep calling' here is not. I've tried to explain to you all that at the time it felt the right play and I was going for stacks.
I think you have taken my 'tongue in cheek' remark about calling again the wrong way,Rancid.with your sarcastic reply. I said I would hope to fold this hand in the future but knowing me i'm likely to call though as I like going for the small stack in general,was what I meant. dev
In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : yes I get it mate, I do. i'm just saying that i'm always willing to go up against a short stack,even if i'm not getting the exact odds. yes i'm only flopping a set 1 in 7.5 not I in 9 but i'm not always going to have to hit that to win. dev Posted by devonfish5
Funny how this debate has revolved around the flop when pre is probably a leak
You make this very hard Dev )
If you think oppo has overpairs because your not shoving pre, than why do you think your going to be good post flop ?
By calling your creating dead money that you have little chance of winning, this in itself is -EV Our post flop play is limited when playing 3 bet pots because of the stack to pot ratio
Seems like you have no intrest in taking this on board and trying to improve - seems like you quite happy to continue making bad plays- IDK
I like you but...gotta stop dismissing good advice )
In Response to Re: tv hand told by TK to post it for debate. : i'm not going to 'keep calling' as you put it. I realise the maths side of the game is important and maybe I've got it wrong here..just. I don't think with the 30p I've already invested that it's out by very much though,taking that into consideration 8 or 9 times,as well. I always try to play optimally and I know that to 'keep calling' here is not. I've tried to explain to you all that at the time it felt the right play and I was going for stacks. I think you have taken my 'tongue in cheek' remark about calling again the wrong way,Rancid.with your sarcastic reply. I said I would hope to fold this hand in the future but knowing me i'm likely to call though as I like going for the small stack in general,was what I meant. dev Posted by devonfish5
People aren't suggesting folding, don't fold, just shove
i like checking back, . wouldnt be worried about flush draws as i would expect the opponent to bet himself, i'd assume they have something like tt-kk or a weak Ax when they check the flop
i'd only bet the flop if i didnt think i could get all the money in over 2 streets
Surely its simple, we bet flop if we can get called by worse if not then check is fine.
2 clubs is very unlikely so its not terrible to check back
Dunno why there is soo much debate
Bottom line is pre calling is bad you should be shoving or folding end of, you dont have enough implied odds for sets. Also the chance overcard comes on flop and you fold its just not good IMO
Shoving pre seems bad to me. Doubt he 3b/f often enough and don't think we fare too well v his 3b/c range, but I'm not playing enough or at this level to say for sure
We can flat if not solely setmining, just fold readless imo though
Comments
keep calling then
gl
You flop a set 1in9 times (roughly)
So 8 times you call and probably fold (sometimes the best hand) or lose so over these 8 times you lose £4.80
1 time you flop a set, and let's assume you stack him 100% of the time (which you won't) you win £4.15
= losing play
AND that's based on a pretty perfect scenario, sometimes you won't stack him when you hit, sometimes you'll hit and still lose, sometimes you'll miss but still put more money on certain flops and lose more than just 60p.
Imo, shoving will definitely be +EV against your average bad short stacker. Occasionally you'll be crushed with only 20% equity, but you'll be flipping alot, 70/30 a fair amount, and probably a few times be 80/20 v a few smaller PPs. You also will get folds sometimes.
For the most part, forget about feel and think about maths.
I do.
i'm just saying that i'm always willing to go up against a short stack,even if i'm not getting the exact odds.
yes i'm only flopping a set 1 in 7.5 not I in 9 but i'm not always going to have to hit that to win.
dev
I realise the maths side of the game is important and maybe I've got it wrong here..just.
I don't think with the 30p I've already invested that it's out by very much though,taking that into consideration 8 or 9 times,as well.
I always try to play optimally and I know that to 'keep calling' here is not.
I've tried to explain to you all that at the time it felt the right play and I was going for stacks.
I think you have taken my 'tongue in cheek' remark about calling again the wrong way,Rancid.with your sarcastic reply.
I said I would hope to fold this hand in the future but knowing me i'm likely to call though as I like going for the small stack in general,was what I meant.
dev
You make this very hard Dev )
If you think oppo has overpairs because your not shoving pre, than why do you think your going to be good post flop ?
By calling your creating dead money that you have little chance of winning, this in itself is -EV
Our post flop play is limited when playing 3 bet pots because of the stack to pot ratio
Seems like you have no intrest in taking this on board and trying to improve - seems like you quite happy to continue making bad plays- IDK
I like you but...gotta stop dismissing good advice )
i'd only bet the flop if i didnt think i could get all the money in over 2 streets
2 clubs is very unlikely so its not terrible to check back
Dunno why there is soo much debate
Bottom line is pre calling is bad you should be shoving or folding end of, you dont have enough implied odds for sets. Also the chance overcard comes on flop and you fold its just not good IMO