Give a little hey. Tbh you will probably learn as much from seeing others opinions than as well as offering any advice/opinion. But if you really want to not bother then don't . Who cares.....it may be incorrect anyway...meh! If you decide on whether to help someone based on whether it benefits you then you are looking at it in the wrong way to my mind.
I'm not saying anybody should do it, or shouldn't do it, or anything. I am simply trying to start something this forum lacks - a discussion.
A discussion about whether it's + or - ev in terms of POKER for us to give advice to lesser players, i.e. forums/training sites/videos on youtube. Not whether it's morally correct
The EV has to be a plus....take the poker clinic on this site..full of advice on every type of hand, position, equity calling and % win scenarios from lots of different players. The way these hands are analysed offers advice for everyone..TOTALLY FREE...and players reading the posts can see errors in their own game or areas in which they can improve, also whats hot and whats not in relation to table position. Apart from all that, it gives you an insight into how to play against those who post in the clinic, should you meet them in a tournament or cash game, which in turn improves and enriches your own game. By helping to improve ''lesser or new players'', the chances are they will continue to play if they are able to win a few quid here and there using what they have learnt from all the available free advice. If there was no help out there then we would end up with the great game of poker becoming a game for the ''elite'' and would damage the game...after all, we all play to try a make a few quid and keeping new players interested by giving out advice, not only helps them improve, but more experienced player too...overall it can only be good for the game..
+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play.
+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability.
Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level?
In general it has to be -ev as it helps poorer players (like myself ) improve reducing the edge experienced players have.
The only positive bit about it is by thinking about situations and particular hands it gets you thinking about how you play them and if thats optimal.
I think if poker was my only source of income (thankfully its not with my game lol) I wouldn't give help to others. Sorry if that sounds callous but to me it's a bit like a pro golfer giving another golfer a tip on the green i.e. watch that putt breaks more than you think.
+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone? Posted by POKERTREV
Would it not be worse because in theory if more players improved to abc level then in general we would be up against better hands more often instead of hands you are a bigger favourite against?
+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone? Posted by POKERTREV
Personally I dont think the 'variance' would be affected by the improvement of players to ABC level... A's will still be busted by lesser hands and players will still call raises with suited cards...With good pocket cards you want customers to build pots..and what looks like an the perfect flop for your hand could also be an even better hand for your opponent.... Variance will not lessen by improving peoples games....it's part and parcel of the game..
P.S. there will also always be 'BadBeats' due to ''Variance''...and in tournies, like B/H's, then short stacks are gonna get called with anything half decent adding to the ''Variances'' of the game
In Response to Re: What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : Would it not be worse because in theory if more players improved to abc level then in general we would be up against better hands more often instead of hands you are a bigger favourite against? Posted by jdsallstar
Hi jdsallstar. I suppose it depends on which way you look at it, but imo it's probably much easier to put an ABC Player on a hand than it is to put a fish or station on a hand for instance.
You would be up against stronger hands in general, but we would gain the ability to narrow it down somewhat and thus make our decisions much easier.
Don't get me wrong - I wish every player was really bad at poker tbh - especially at a cash table, but in MTT's (Which I play the most) it is very difficult to get to know a players ability as we are probably never on the same table long enough or play each other often enough.
+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone? Posted by POKERTREV
Lol I think people are misunderstanding the question....
The question is from the point of view of the advicer giver, it is +EV to help other people improve or is it more +EV to let them carry on being bad and us having a bigger edge.
Saying it will reduce the number of bad beats is awful thinking (no offence Trev) but bad beats is what make winning players money. Bad beats happen when we get it in good and lose when we're favourite, whhy would we ever want to do something that would reduce the number of times we get it in good??
FWIW, I'm obviously a big believer in sharing info, hence my activity level in the clinic. Sharing strat with others is what has improved my games tons, and I genuinely believe that being the advice giver can help you too. Loads of times I've said something about a hand, it's been questioned, I've went and stoved it and realised it's a lot closer than I thought etc.
Truthfully it probably isn't +EV for the game because there will generally always be a new generation of people who turn 18 who can now start playing and will generally be bad, so as long as sites keep doing good promos, encouraging them in etc, then there should always be money at the bottom of the pyramid which will head to the better players at (for example) 4NL, who will lose it to the better players at 10NL, who will lose it to the better players at 20NL and so on. Must be loads of people that win X amount at say 30NL, go and lose £500 at 50NL, so step back down, win more off 30NL, step up etc, and these are feeding the higher levels from the weaker players they beat at the lower levels.
So imo it's probably -EV poker wise but I still do it.
can help you improve as a player though as you have to be more confident in everything you do and your understanding of it so you can explain it properly to people who don't get a concept.
+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game then maybe we would be less likely to suffer at the mercy of so many "BadBeats" Due to poor play. +EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability. Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level? Thoughts Anyone? Posted by POKERTREV
Point one, dude no.
Bad beats happen when villain sucks out after getting the money in way behind.
We want villains to be putting the money in way behind.
-ev ldo increases variance ldo can help you improve as a player though as you have to be more confident in everything you do and your understanding of it so you can explain it properly to people who don't get a concept. Posted by beaneh
This..... I have often tried giving advice to "lesser" players only to realise I have stopped implementing them myself
Think it's obviously -ev to help players you play against on a regular basis
But because I feel the learning process is a ladder with sooooo many steps, it doesn't hurt your EV to help others lower down the ladder. infact you should want to encourage learning in poker and get people instrsted in learing more about the game so they get into more and play more and basically fill the player pool. I am a big beleiver in the poker money goes upwards - so money won at nl4 eventually finds it's way to nl100 for example.
You can't teach someone step 5 before they learn step 1.
The only benefit you should look at when discussing in equal minded groups is what benefit are you getting out of it while sharing ideas and helping out others. If you are getting nothing out of it and you just give give give - then it's not +EV for you.
In Response to What is the EV of helping lesser poker players for free? : Hi Percival. Most (If not All) Poker Players have differing styles, some good poker advice that works for one may not work for all. There are certain things we can teach players regarding simple ABC Poker basics which will help them improve, however, there are so many individual styles and methods that not one size fits all. If we could teach every player to play every hand the exactly the same way, regardless of circumstance then the game would be very predictable and boring imo, which is why poker is so fascinating. There will never be a right or wrong way to play a hand. The only "right way" to play poker is to have a good understanding of the basics, after that it's really very much down to the individuality of players, cards dealt & table dynamics. What works for one may not work for another, every player will always be unique, some stronger or weaker than others, but always unique. Fascinating subject is the mindset of a poker player. Posted by POKERTREV
Ok so IMO, purely based on the EV of the game, it's good to share information with other players because it's good to get more players TRYING to play the same game as you.
- Not entirely accurate on both 'Liquidity EV' and 'EV for yourself at the tables'. Poker is a game of information. The more you have and the less your opponents have, the more money you should win at the tables. By giving away information to others you decrease liquity to those that are already playing the game, and increase the skill levels of your ops at the tables.
It's good for the micro players that new players join the game, it's then good for the low limit cash players that the micro limit players eventually become good enough to play at low limits, but will then be a fish @ those limits, and so forth. It's almost like an evolutionary poker cycle that players become good enough to beat a certain level, but then they aren't good enough to beat the level above until they learn more and more - long process!
- Can't make heads nor tails of this
Other than that though, sharing information with other players is fun
- Invalid, just b/c 'Fun' in this context doesn't fall within EV.
and helps yourself improve, as well as developing your poker theory!
- Purely conjecture , with proof of many becoming elite who not discuss strat with others. More likely rephrased as "talking strategy with players of a roughly equal ability"?
It's also important to keep the poker economy healthy and helping players improve certainly does that imo!
- Increasing the overall player strength of the player pool does the exact opposite. Making players better, if anything, is harmful to the poker economy.
You learn by sharing so overall I think it's +ev in just poker,
- Fallacy. Learning from sharing information with lesser players could be argued that... well, it isn't learning at all. It's more so just talking things out loud to yourself so you get a better understanding of it, or practicising at being able to think critically.
but it's also fun and helps you develop your own game! Posted by percival09
- See Point 3
Bluh, 1st attempt was a little blunt, and it's wasn't meant to sound like I'm against people discussing cool poker spots, sowwwwwiiiiiiiuh. Had just woke up, and points were made purely to show that the arguments made don't really add that much to arguing for the motion. So, this is me tweaking that post for better reading. Apologies, guys.
How about feeling good about yourself for helping others?- may not be poker related +ev, but +ev in life in terms of mindset, personally i enjoy helping others if i can and feel good about myself it it directly helps them improve as i can empathize with them and appreciate all the help i have had so like to try and help others like i have been helped. I understand as a poker player you have too be ruthless and from a purely poker point of view then its -ev, but a valid point nonetheless also feeling good about ourselves may also have an influence over our perfomance long term, just a thought though coming from someone who plays the game as a hobby.
Comments
By helping to improve ''lesser or new players'', the chances are they will continue to play if they are able to win a few quid here and there using what they have learnt from all the available free advice.
If there was no help out there then we would end up with the great game of poker becoming a game for the ''elite'' and would damage the game...after all, we all play to try a make a few quid and keeping new players interested by giving out advice, not only helps them improve, but more experienced player too...overall it can only be good for the game..
+EV - If we teach players a better understanding of the game, but then they don't actually ever learn to progress to a very much higher level, we will still have an edge against ABC Poker ability.
Q - Is poker variance affected by other players skill level? ie...would we suffer less variance if more players improved to ABC Level?
Thoughts Anyone?
The only positive bit about it is by thinking about situations and particular hands it gets you thinking about how you play them and if thats optimal.
I think if poker was my only source of income (thankfully its not with my game lol) I wouldn't give help to others. Sorry if that sounds callous but to me it's a bit like a pro golfer giving another golfer a tip on the green i.e. watch that putt breaks more than you think.
Variance will not lessen by improving peoples games....it's part and parcel of the game..
P.S. there will also always be 'BadBeats' due to ''Variance''...and in tournies, like B/H's, then short stacks are gonna get called with anything half decent adding to the ''Variances'' of the game
I suppose it depends on which way you look at it, but imo it's probably much easier to put an ABC Player on a hand than it is to put a fish or station on a hand for instance.
You would be up against stronger hands in general, but we would gain the ability to narrow it down somewhat and thus make our decisions much easier.
Don't get me wrong - I wish every player was really bad at poker tbh - especially at a cash table, but in MTT's (Which I play the most) it is very difficult to get to know a players ability as we are probably never on the same table long enough or play each other often enough.
The question is from the point of view of the advicer giver, it is +EV to help other people improve or is it more +EV to let them carry on being bad and us having a bigger edge.
Saying it will reduce the number of bad beats is awful thinking (no offence Trev) but bad beats is what make winning players money. Bad beats happen when we get it in good and lose when we're favourite, whhy would we ever want to do something that would reduce the number of times we get it in good??
FWIW, I'm obviously a big believer in sharing info, hence my activity level in the clinic. Sharing strat with others is what has improved my games tons, and I genuinely believe that being the advice giver can help you too. Loads of times I've said something about a hand, it's been questioned, I've went and stoved it and realised it's a lot closer than I thought etc.
Truthfully it probably isn't +EV for the game because there will generally always be a new generation of people who turn 18 who can now start playing and will generally be bad, so as long as sites keep doing good promos, encouraging them in etc, then there should always be money at the bottom of the pyramid which will head to the better players at (for example) 4NL, who will lose it to the better players at 10NL, who will lose it to the better players at 20NL and so on. Must be loads of people that win X amount at say 30NL, go and lose £500 at 50NL, so step back down, win more off 30NL, step up etc, and these are feeding the higher levels from the weaker players they beat at the lower levels.
So imo it's probably -EV poker wise but I still do it.
Bad beats happen when villain sucks out after getting the money in way behind.
We want villains to be putting the money in way behind.
This is a reason not to help "lesser" players.
But because I feel the learning process is a ladder with sooooo many steps, it doesn't hurt your EV to help others lower down the ladder. infact you should want to encourage learning in poker and get people instrsted in learing more about the game so they get into more and play more and basically fill the player pool. I am a big beleiver in the poker money goes upwards - so money won at nl4 eventually finds it's way to nl100 for example.
You can't teach someone step 5 before they learn step 1.
The only benefit you should look at when discussing in equal minded groups is what benefit are you getting out of it while sharing ideas and helping out others.
If you are getting nothing out of it and you just give give give - then it's not +EV for you.
Bluh, 1st attempt was a little blunt, and it's wasn't meant to sound like I'm against people discussing cool poker spots, sowwwwwiiiiiiiuh. Had just woke up, and points were made purely to show that the arguments made don't really add that much to arguing for the motion. So, this is me tweaking that post for better reading. Apologies, guys.
I think I have found a +ve for helping "lesser players"
Free information
If you/the forum as a whole helps bad players, they will be inclined to keep coming back for more.
This means more hand histories.
Handhistories are a great source of free information that might be worth noting down.
If we didnt help the "lesser players" they would stop posting all this information.
So, Smitalos, can you rebuke that one........?