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20NL - KK, Horrible Flop, Worse Turn

Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
edited June 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Left the villians name in cos it doesn't really give any info out on his play and hopefully he might be nice and tell me what he had :)

Tried to get it shown on 861 tonight but they didn't get round to it.

Good fold, or really nitty?

I didn't c-bet the flop because it just smashes a lot of people's calling ranges pre and I'm just gonna get check/raised loads and hate life. Then the turn card just makes me hate life even more...
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
ulsterfr30 Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £41.88
BigHawk89 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £47.34
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
STR1BS Fold        
Lambert180 Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £45.52
benc Fold        
ulsterfr30 Fold        
BigHawk89 Call   £0.40 £1.30 £46.94
Flop
   
  • 9
  • 10
  • J
     
BigHawk89 Check        
Lambert180 Check        
Turn
   
  • J
     
BigHawk89 Bet   £0.80 £2.10 £46.14
Lambert180 Fold        
BigHawk89 Muck        
BigHawk89 Win   £1.23   £47.37
BigHawk89 Return   £0.80 £0.07 £48.17
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Comments

  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited June 2013
    ummmmm

    That's mad nitty in my book, sure it's a wet flop and turn, but come on- you were preflop aggressor and checked flop, if he's a decent player he's picked up on your lack of love for that board. Call the turn and see what happens on river, kings still rate to be good a lot of the time here.
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited June 2013
    BET.THE.FLOP.

    Why on earth are you checking?

    You charge people 0 for a draw and more importantly get 0 info.

    They could easily have A10, AK, QQ, 88-, A9, K10, Q10....

    BET.THE.FLOP.

    You are beating A LOT of oppos range.  KK has great showdown value too.  For you to fold to one bet is criminal IMO.


    BET.THE.FLOP.
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited June 2013
    YOU EVEN HAVE POSITION

    AHHHHHH

    At least if you get check raised on the flop then youve gained some info. 
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  • LARSON7LARSON7 Member Posts: 4,491
    edited June 2013

    Totally Bizarre!

    There is so much you are still crushing

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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited June 2013
    Meh, thought this might be the response lol.

    FWIW, I don't think it's quite as horrible as the first two posts have said but I can be argued round. Torn about the flop, it's just all over someone's calling range to have made 2pr, pr + draws etc and yes I can charge them for draws but I'm happier to pot control cos if I end up playing a big pot on a board like this I'm gonna be beat.

    Turn is pretty horrible card in terms of the fact I don't think he's taking the betting lead without at least decent equity V me on such a horrible board, don't think he's ever gonna bother bluffing on a board like this when the pot is tiny.

    Thinking about it, I'm probably deep enough to just flat the turn purely to draw to what would be the nut house. That is pretty nitty.

    Urgh the more I look at this, the more it feels horrible folding, but every option seems horrible.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited June 2013
    Out of interest, if we bet the flop and get c/r which I think will happen quite often, what do we do on that turn? Call down again?
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  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive Member Posts: 839
    edited June 2013
    so every time board is 910J with 2 clubs, and oppo checks, they've hit 2 pair?

    They called you preflop. Yes, it's part of their range and they could be trapping you. But FIND OUT!!! If they check/raise that board, it's not nice- you might want to consider folding then, I guess. Way better than folding to a single bet on the turn though. What's more likely is they call or fold, then you have some info and more importantly- position. If he calls you most likely get a check on that turn, you can then check behind and see the river card cheaply.

    It's pretty rare on a non A flop to have a good reason for not c-betting kings, and almost all the exceptions are to hide the strength of your hand, not out of fear.
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  • SmitalosSmitalos Member Posts: 539
    edited June 2013
    mfw



    I saw your flop check-back
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited June 2013
    Sigh, fml for ever starting this thread!

    Not looking forward to seeing in the morning what you've left for me Smit.

    I blame it all on running/playing bad for like 3 weeks straight... bound to mess with your head.
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  • LARSON7LARSON7 Member Posts: 4,491
    edited June 2013

    In Response to Re: 20NL - KK, Horrible Flop, Worse Turn:

    Sigh, fml for ever starting this thread! Not looking forward to seeing in the morning what you've left for me Smit. I blame it all on running/playing bad for like 3 weeks straight... bound to mess with your head.
    Posted by Lambert180
    At the end of the day, it was one hand. Don't worry about it.

    Could be an inspired fold! Either way, wouldn't dwell on it.

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  • liamboi11liamboi11 Member Posts: 2,141
    edited June 2013
    we can`t play every hand perfectly so wouldn`t worry about it but defo think your confidence is playing a big part in the way you have played it I have done the same in the past so know where you are and how you are feeling.

    but yeah defo c-bet I get that that board hits a big part of opponents range but their is also so many other hands we are ahead of to get value.but as played checking flop then folding to one bet is terrible yeah sometimes you may well beat but never folding turn I would call and re-assess river depending on what card arrives and what the opponents bet sizing will be like etc.

    but as larson said it`s one hand we learn from mistakes.
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  • BigHawk89BigHawk89 Member Posts: 627
    edited June 2013
    Soul read......think so anyway can't find the hand history to see what I had lol 
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited June 2013
    Here ya go Hawk :)

    Hand History #665652812 (21:59 23/06/2013)

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  • TommyDTommyD Member Posts: 4,389
    edited June 2013
    Ok, concerning the check back.  There is a time to check back with KK and there is a time to bet it.  I don't think this is it.  There is a time to do it sometimes, on a 227r (when it's hard for oppo to have something and they are peeling decently wide, i.e. not just pairs and Axs) or on a 578dd (the sort of board we sometimes do not Cbet when we have Ax so we should sometimes not cbet when we have KK to remain balanced and hard to define down).  Of course if you're from 2007 and your cbet percentage with the lead is 95%+ then it's pointless to check any of the above back.  And there is a different strategy for going through the streets than just 'Get it in.'

    However this one is naughty wet and bang in the range of the oppo to have 1 pair/ 2 pair and strong draws, possibly combo draws.  I think we have to bet it.

    As played a ninja would have had to had stabbed me through the throat, THROUGH THE THROAT, TWICE, to make me pass to that one bet.  We're under repped and my default line is call turn call river.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited June 2013
    The fact that it hit's oppo range should be more of a reason to c bet, check giving up is just horrible......you could hit a king right ) I mean it's also a flop that's hit both of yor ranges....

    Your probably more concerned with getting one pr over the line with 200bigs on this flop, nothing to say we can't just play streets.



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  • BigHawk89BigHawk89 Member Posts: 627
    edited June 2013
    Wow i had a full house, thought id remember that one. Still though i think my lead out on the turn could be worse hands/draws. Im not that much of a nit that i have to have a full house.......am i? lol.

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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited June 2013
    so you enjoy stabbing your own genetalia? how interesting
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  • Glen17Glen17 Member Posts: 26
    edited June 2013
    AWH **** NO, WHY ARE YOU CHECKING BACK THE FLOP?

    it's a DRAW heavy flop your crushing ALOT of range here ... if you get c/r'd then yeah you can give it up or re evaluate turn you dont check fold jesus AWFUL play
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited June 2013
    Lol wtf. 

    Bet flop

    Call turn

    Not a nit apparently 
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited June 2013
    Sigh sigh sigh, it's been a really long time since I've posted a hand where I've just got torn to shreds.

    It was obv a sick soul read people, you heard Hawk say he had a FH so it was a good fold*

    Yes I agree, it was badly played and Liamboi has probably touched on why, definitely lacking confidence after not having a winning session for like 3+ weeks (excluding last night where I did make a profit). Meh, glad such a terrible mistake on this occasion only led to me gifting someone 3xBB as appose to my usual mistakes that involve barrelling 3 streets w/ air and gifting someone 100+ BBs.

    Will not be doing this again, rest assured :)

    *I'm joking!
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