I am firmly in the better to win a small pot than lose a big pot brigade. Maybe horrendously was a bad choice of words but to my mind he had 2 golden opportunities to take a good size pot down, by reraising allin on the flop or by betting allin on the turn.If he had done either of these and you had called then he could rightfully called you fishy and complained about a badbeat but in this situation he opened himself up to a bad beat so it was more his play that caused it. I dont like the whole check on the turn because the board has become very draw heavy with 1 flush draw and 2 straight draw on offer. For me this is take the money and run territory. But i will add one disclaimer to any comment i have made, i am a really bad cash player so maybe my comments should be viewed with that in mind
I agree millhouse! - He played it well in parts but very poorly in other parts.. I appreciate ur response. No1 can call me a fish tho, i didnt call once.
Pre flop i think he played it poorly, I wud do the same on the flop, but I wouldnt check the turn!
Well chuffed with ur reply, hope to hear more from u!
DOHHHHHH, your after honesty so i will give it you, your play their in my opinion was just dreadful, i have watched you play a few times and i thought to myself very very loose and likes to get involved in every hand? you must have known you were way behind and thats why it was such bad play in my mind, just my opinion
Talon u cannot possibly be a bad cash player if u understand the game as seem to!
Ure replies are always structured and justified with explanations, u wud make mincemeat of the cash games, I hesitate to say particuarly the lower levels, as I think they wud be BELOW your level and do u an injustice.
Unless ur either quoting a book, or suffer from huge adrenaline rushes that make u do crazy things, I really dont understand why u cannot beat the cash game!
Id like to come have a game with u at whatever level, and see whats going wrong, coz u obviously know ur stuff!
DOHHHHHH, your after honesty so i will give it you, your play their in my opinion was just dreadful, i have watched you play a few times and i thought to myself very very loose and likes to get involved in every hand? you must have known you were way behind and thats why it was such bad play in my mind, just my opinion Posted by webby234
Thanx webby Im after opinions, but with some backup. I obviously know im behind, so checking is no good, hes checked to me, im nt guna fold, so whats my other option? Raise..... Small raise? prices in draws, Big raise, Same thing, All in? my only option? no? what would u do?
when he called your raise of £16.50 after flop you must have known you were behind yes? then he checks again to trap you even further and you fell straight into his trap by betting £31, the other player has been extremely unlucky in my opinion here
He could have pocket 2s im miles behind, Im not sure ure getting the point im trying to make about aggression.......
He could have limp called with 23, played it the same way up to the turn, bet the turn, and I run a mile.
Please understand.....its not all about the hand I posted. It just raises issues that I find fascinating. I know my cards, he knows his, neither really matter until they r turned over. - Its the plays before this happens im interested in.
when he called your raise of £16.50 after flop you must have known you were behind yes? then he checks again to trap you even further and you fell straight into his trap by betting £31, the other player has been extremely unlucky in my opinion here Posted by webby234
That was my school of thought, once that raise had been called alarm bells would be ringing. But the other player had the opportunity to come over the top an show strength and put dohhh off! or am i talking rubbish?
No maf, ur thinking is spot on, I wud flat call the flop in his position, but id move in on the turn. I was hoping for opposition to my play and his, and ive gotten it.
I question the pre flop play and the turn play. - Pre flop more so.
i think other player was trying to milk DOHHHHH, and i'm no expert on cash but i think he did a pretty good job till that river card dropped dohhh what do you want me to say about your hand? my thought on the hand you played was poor no matter which way i look at it Posted by webby234
Im looking at playing aggressive poker in genral bud, I just thought this hand was a good one to raise 3/4 issues about aggressive cash play.
U may think I played it terribly, but what if he had TJ here? QJ? kj? AJ? even queens or kings?
Look at the pre flop action, check call 6x bb? what do u put him on there? small pair?
I think the play is successful; alot of the time, dont u? if not y not?
Doh how he got to allin is fantasic play by stanley u cannt question his play as all the cash went in on the turn and he was light years ahead u had 4 outs
the fact that u bet and he didnt doesnt change the fact that with one card to go and all the cash in (out of a possible 43 cards) u had 4 outs 4/43 u do the maths i will take them odds every time
people are critizing stanley for not frightening an aggressive player away when he is so far ahead
-If u dont bet the turn and your straight comes then the cash goes in then its bad play by stanley -If u give the option to stanley 100 times with that pot and them odds stanley is laughing all the way to the bank
Dont fool yourself Doh that u played this well and Stanley played poorly because of the outcome Use this as a tool and a learning experience players check against aggressive players not just because they are weak or are on a draw
No maf, ur thinking is spot on, I wud flat call the flop in his position, but id move in on the turn. I was hoping for opposition to my play and his, and ive gotten it. I question the pre flop play and the turn play. - Pre flop more so. DOH Posted by DOHHHHHHH
glad i am just a doughnut then an not one with a hole in the middle!! So if he had re-raised your raise you would of backed off an mucked the hand? would you of put him on a pair of jacks or trips? or AJ like webby suggested?
Any resistance I dnt care what he has he cud have 22 for me I aint calling here.
The cards irrelevant in this specific hand.....all im trying to do is make him fold! Thats my objective as soon as he calls me on the flop. If I cant make him fold, I cant win? - wud anyone disagree with that?
Leaves me with 2 options, give it up, or move in - again, what wud u do when its checked to u? TK shud use this scenario for a mastercash poll. lol
My post was sposed to be more genral than specific though, hes not got top set everytime has he.
Other people have already stated this but I just wanted to add my opinion. After the flop, both players played this fine.
Dohhhhhhh did what he does and stanley08 played it perfectly knowing that there was a good chance that this was going to happen. Dohhhhhhh obviously got lucky (hitting a 4-outer for a 10/1 shot) but aggressive players will get lucky at times and many times they gain massive equity by getting timid players to fold superior but non-nut hands.
The arguments for saying that stanley08 should have been more aggressive are really -EV in my opinion. When you hit a massive hand against an aggro player you want to get paid the maximum so you almost always slow-play them. Having said that, I tend to bet out with big hands on the flop after being passive pre-flop (given deep enough stacks) because I like the odds that a LAG will re-raise me which means that I have more chance of getting all the cash in. Players like Annette Obrestad call betting out on the flop (after being passive pre-flop) a "donk" because it almost always shows weakness and people who do this will almost always fold to an aggressive raise - that's why I like to do it against aggressive opponents (but not always!).
Arguments about getting your money in first here (and protecting your hand) are irrelevant - if you are stanley08 you are praying to get all the money in by whatever means. Obviously Dohhhhhhh could have taken a free card to hit his draw but I'm pretty sure that stanley08 was confident that Dohhhhhhh was going to bet.
It's a pretty standard cash hand to be honest - a LAG plays like a LAG and gets lucky against a trapping passive player. We pay our money and take our chances. Then, when we get out-drawn we have to take our beats - I guess that Phil Hellmuth would be crying like a baby after a beat like that.
P.S. Dohhhhhhh obviously wasn't a fish in this hand, a luckbox yes, but not a fish. :-)
Good hand analysis novice, I agree with all of it.
His pre flop play tho, u missed that? And my play here over a period of time rather than this specific hand when Im trying to bluff a fella off the nuts?
Aye Id love to make him cry the wimp! lol Good hand analysis novice, I agree with all of it. His pre flop play tho, u missed that? And my play here over a period of time rather than this specific hand when Im trying to bluff a fella off the nuts? Cheers for reading and replying, DOHH Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Thankyou.
I don't like his play pre-flop but I'm not going to castigate him for it. I didn't comment on it because I don't have strong feelings on it. Against you, I'm 3-betting big and am happy to take an aipf race if that is what happens. The reason that I'm happy to do this is that I think that I'm ahead of your range and letting another player into the pot is -EV for me.
I think that we can all agree that aggressive play like yours wins more pots. The skill is required to balance this against losing the really big pots. It's simple maths that given two players with random hands over an extended period of time then the player who gets the other to fold most will win most pots - but he won't win most of the big pots. Depending on the skill level (and image) of your opponents you have to adjust your play to be optimal. It's a fine balance to achieve but I agree that on many tables out-and-out aggression is effective and simple to implement so long as you have the temperament to accept the variance.
Ur willing to take a race pre here? Thats krazy? I think it is, Ive raised 3 quid, ur willing to tank for ur stack, or re raise, and call for the rest if/when I move?? so much in my favour! If im winning I know Im winning and I snap. If Im losing, its pretty obvious too, so I fold, n lose 3 quid. Surely shoving pre here isnt an option, ur ahead of my range sure I hate the word range, but ur making it easy for me.
Comments
I dont like the whole check on the turn because the board has become very draw heavy with 1 flush draw and 2 straight draw on offer. For me this is take the money and run territory. But i will add one disclaimer to any comment i have made, i am a really bad cash player so maybe my comments should be viewed with that in mind
I agree millhouse! - He played it well in parts but very poorly in other parts.. I appreciate ur response. No1 can call me a fish tho, i didnt call once.
Pre flop i think he played it poorly, I wud do the same on the flop, but I wouldnt check the turn!
Well chuffed with ur reply, hope to hear more from u!
DOHH
Talon u cannot possibly be a bad cash player if u understand the game as seem to!
Ure replies are always structured and justified with explanations, u wud make mincemeat of the cash games, I hesitate to say particuarly the lower levels, as I think they wud be BELOW your level and do u an injustice.
Unless ur either quoting a book, or suffer from huge adrenaline rushes that make u do crazy things, I really dont understand why u cannot beat the cash game!
Id like to come have a game with u at whatever level, and see whats going wrong, coz u obviously know ur stuff!
Get stuck in!
DOHH
I really wud love to know, thanx for ur feeback
DOHH
He has, but how often does he have top set here??
He could have limp called with 23, played it the same way up to the turn, bet the turn, and I run a mile.
Please understand.....its not all about the hand I posted. It just raises issues that I find fascinating. I know my cards, he knows his, neither really matter until they r turned over. - Its the plays before this happens im interested in.
DOHH
dohhh what do you want me to say about your hand? my thought on the hand you played was poor no matter which way i look at it
I question the pre flop play and the turn play. - Pre flop more so.
DOH
U may think I played it terribly, but what if he had TJ here? QJ? kj? AJ? even queens or kings?
Look at the pre flop action, check call 6x bb? what do u put him on there? small pair?
I think the play is successful; alot of the time, dont u? if not y not?
DOHH
the fact that u bet and he didnt doesnt change the fact that with one card to go and all the cash in (out of a possible 43 cards) u had 4 outs 4/43 u do the maths i will take them odds every time
people are critizing stanley for not frightening an aggressive player away when he is so far ahead
-If u dont bet the turn and your straight comes then the cash goes in then its bad play by stanley
-If u give the option to stanley 100 times with that pot and them odds stanley is laughing all the way to the bank
Dont fool yourself Doh that u played this well and Stanley played poorly because of the outcome
Use this as a tool and a learning experience players check against aggressive players not just because they are weak or are on a draw
The cards irrelevant in this specific hand.....all im trying to do is make him fold! Thats my objective as soon as he calls me on the flop. If I cant make him fold, I cant win? - wud anyone disagree with that?
Leaves me with 2 options, give it up, or move in - again, what wud u do when its checked to u? TK shud use this scenario for a mastercash poll. lol
My post was sposed to be more genral than specific though, hes not got top set everytime has he.
DOHH
Dohhhhhhh did what he does and stanley08 played it perfectly knowing that there was a good chance that this was going to happen. Dohhhhhhh obviously got lucky (hitting a 4-outer for a 10/1 shot) but aggressive players will get lucky at times and many times they gain massive equity by getting timid players to fold superior but non-nut hands.
The arguments for saying that stanley08 should have been more aggressive are really -EV in my opinion. When you hit a massive hand against an aggro player you want to get paid the maximum so you almost always slow-play them. Having said that, I tend to bet out with big hands on the flop after being passive pre-flop (given deep enough stacks) because I like the odds that a LAG will re-raise me which means that I have more chance of getting all the cash in. Players like Annette Obrestad call betting out on the flop (after being passive pre-flop) a "donk" because it almost always shows weakness and people who do this will almost always fold to an aggressive raise - that's why I like to do it against aggressive opponents (but not always!).
Arguments about getting your money in first here (and protecting your hand) are irrelevant - if you are stanley08 you are praying to get all the money in by whatever means. Obviously Dohhhhhhh could have taken a free card to hit his draw but I'm pretty sure that stanley08 was confident that Dohhhhhhh was going to bet.
It's a pretty standard cash hand to be honest - a LAG plays like a LAG and gets lucky against a trapping passive player. We pay our money and take our chances. Then, when we get out-drawn we have to take our beats - I guess that Phil Hellmuth would be crying like a baby after a beat like that.
P.S. Dohhhhhhh obviously wasn't a fish in this hand, a luckbox yes, but not a fish. :-)
Aye Id love to make him cry the wimp! lol
Good hand analysis novice, I agree with all of it.
His pre flop play tho, u missed that? And my play here over a period of time rather than this specific hand when Im trying to bluff a fella off the nuts?
Cheers for reading and replying, DOHH
I don't like his play pre-flop but I'm not going to castigate him for it. I didn't comment on it because I don't have strong feelings on it. Against you, I'm 3-betting big and am happy to take an aipf race if that is what happens. The reason that I'm happy to do this is that I think that I'm ahead of your range and letting another player into the pot is -EV for me.
I think that we can all agree that aggressive play like yours wins more pots. The skill is required to balance this against losing the really big pots. It's simple maths that given two players with random hands over an extended period of time then the player who gets the other to fold most will win most pots - but he won't win most of the big pots. Depending on the skill level (and image) of your opponents you have to adjust your play to be optimal. It's a fine balance to achieve but I agree that on many tables out-and-out aggression is effective and simple to implement so long as you have the temperament to accept the variance.
DOHH