Rancid - Your so wrong on this it's madness. lets take your range vs. range example and see why you're so wrong about not considering the rake. Effective stacks are 100bb. Action folds to me in the SB and I open shove a range of AA, QQ. You have KK in the BB, call or fold? KK vs. my range has 50% equity. Folding has an ev of -1bb, Calling has an ev of -7.5bb. Hopefully you can see the massive difference Posted by dub1
ok this is getting silly I am never folding KK:)
Why would I put you on such a narrow range and fold, cmon bad example. If anyone starts playing like that then surely we should all be shot
But anyway maybe it has come across like I am saying rake is not a consideration. Because somewhere it obviously is and if read through my posts I lean towards saying it must be considered somehwere.
But you gotta think about range first and because these situations where you really have to look at a very thin spot and take rake into account are rare I don't think people need to start thinking about rake first. Otherwise it's going to have such a negative effect on people game where they giving up so many spots because they range them so narrow and then think - o yes I can fold because of rake.
For this QQ -ev spot for example where I gotta fold because I narrow villian & readless is just so stoopid it beggers beleive. How can people readless assign a range and fold because of rake. Your going to need 100% concrete read to fold spots like that, seriously do you guys think it has a massive implication on your pre flop game that your going to start folding premium hands.
So yes I will continue to warn the micros that putting rake first is not the way to go. If people want to disagree then fine.
Makes me chuckle that a lot of people are using anti rake strat anyway but don't even know it, they just think they value betting.
But anyway think about range pre and post before rake.
If anyone wants to rubbish what I am saying then come on bring it on. Might actuaally get some decent poker talk rarther then someone posting "x2"
How is the ev -5bb when we have only invested 1bb into the pot (the big blind)?
It's hard to prove a point without writing a book so it's not a bad example just a simple one. The point of this isn't about what the OP should do in the hand they posted or what's the villains range etc, but to prove that rake should be a factor in calculating the ev. I'll try again.
I'm SB, your BB, rake is 7.5%
If I tell you before we play that my strategy against you is to open shove a range of AA,QQ and I can't deviate from that, then :-
What would your strategy be when it's folded to me in the SB, I shove and you have KK in the BB?
What's the highest ev play for you in the above example and what is the ev of both calling and folding? (Just work out the ev of this situation and not for our whole strategies).
This just depends where you start looking from. If you start looking from before the blinds are posted it's -1bb and if you start looking from after the blinds are posted it's 0.
This makes no difference, except to the equation for working out ev.
In Response to Re: Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold? : This just depends where you start looking from. If you start looking from before the blinds are posted it's -1bb and if you start looking from after the blinds are posted it's 0. This makes no difference, except to the equation for working out ev. Posted by dub1
It's expected value, we can not base the calcualtion on money we have already lost.
ie. when we flip a coin we calucalte the ev on the next flip and do not factor in the last flip
In Response to Re: Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold? : It's expected value, we can not base the calcualtion on money we have already lost. ie. when we flip a coin we calucalte the ev on the next flip and do not factor in the last flip Posted by rancid
Okay, so were hu, 100bb effective. I raise every hand to 99bb and always fold when you shove. So what your saying is that my strategy is 0ev or slightly +ev (from the times you fold) because folding is 0ev?
How is the ev -5bb when we have only invested 1bb into the pot (the big blind)? It's hard to prove a point without writing a book so it's not a bad example just a simple one. The point of this isn't about what the OP should do in the hand they posted or what's the villains range etc, but to prove that rake should be a factor in calculating the ev. I'll try again. I'm SB, your BB, rake is 7.5% If I tell you before we play that my strategy against you is to open shove a range of AA,QQ and I can't deviate from that, then :- What would your strategy be when it's folded to me in the SB, I shove and you have KK in the BB? What's the highest ev play for you in the above example and what is the ev of both calling and folding? (Just work out the ev of this situation and not for our whole strategies). Posted by dub1
btw yes get it, but's it's a toy game
I don't feel comfortable with toy games because they suggest that certain plays are fine based on very specific circumstances which in the most part do not apply to real world poker. And can suggest to some that it's actually ok to fold in what they now deem to be similar spots.
In Response to Re: Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold? : btw yes get it, but's it's a toy game I don't feel comfortable with toy games because they suggest that certain plays are fine based on very specific circumstances which in the most part do not apply to real world poker. And can suggest to some that it's actually ok to fold in what they now deem to be similar spots. Posted by rancid
It's not a toy game. I told you my strategy so you have perfect information to work out the ev. My post have nothing to do with the OP's question, just that rake should always be included when calculating ev.
In Response to Re: Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold? : Okay, so were hu, 100bb effective. I raise every hand to 99bb and always fold when you shove. So what your saying is that my strategy is 0ev or slightly +ev (from the times you fold) because folding is 0ev? Posted by dub1
I love your games
I will concede and say their are very specifc circumstances where folding is not zero EV But jesus I can't remember the specific situation or even remember the calc, would have to look back at stuff.
But in the above example if I fold then for me it's 0ev If your folding when you raise 99bb then that's not good is it
In Response to Re: Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold? : It's not a toy game. I told you my strategy so you have perfect information to work out the ev. My post have nothing to do with the OP's question, just that rake should always be included when calculating ev. Posted by dub1
Then obviously it's a toy game cause no one will tell you their strategy.
Look I agree obviously that if you assign range and do the ev calc and your looking at a slightly 0ev play then you have to factor in rake % espcially at micros where they punish you for taking thin spots.
But all this still revolves around one thing and that's range assignment. Like I suggested earlier your going to have to be so sure you have that range correct for folding pre hands in this spots. You could even take it a lot further and suggest folding big combos draws versus top set.
If only everyone was that good that they could range people correct 100% of the time.
I wouldn't advise anyone playing micros to make these massive folds in game.
Like I said, It just depends at what point you look from. It's always from before the blinds are posted which makes more sense to me as you start before the blinds are posted with 100bb and if you fold when in the big blind you end with 99bb. 99bb - 100bb = -1bb.
In Response to Re: Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold? : ok this is getting silly I am never folding KK:) Why would I put you on such a narrow range and fold, cmon bad example. If anyone starts playing like that then surely we should all be shot Posted by rancid
There are a lot of players I have notes on at 4nl. A lot of nit regs will not raise over 20p all in with less than QQ/AK
In Response to Re: Pocket Queens, facing all in pre for 100 bb plus, call or fold? : There are a lot of players I have notes on at 4nl. A lot of nit regs will not raise over 20p all in with less than QQ/AK so we have AA/KK/AK/QQ Its a fold against these players Fact. Posted by calcalfold
It's a 3 bet shove over 21bb of dead money If you really can lay down QQ here and narrow villian as above then well done you
Comments
ok this is getting silly I am never folding KK:)
Why would I put you on such a narrow range and fold, cmon bad example.
If anyone starts playing like that then surely we should all be shot
But anyway maybe it has come across like I am saying rake is not a consideration. Because somewhere it obviously is and if read through my posts I lean towards saying it must be considered somehwere.
But you gotta think about range first and because these situations where you really have to look at a very thin spot and take rake into account are rare I don't think people need to start thinking about rake first.
Otherwise it's going to have such a negative effect on people game where they giving up so many spots because they range them so narrow and then think - o yes I can fold because of rake.
For this QQ -ev spot for example where I gotta fold because I narrow villian & readless is just so stoopid it beggers beleive. How can people readless assign a range and fold because of rake.
Your going to need 100% concrete read to fold spots like that, seriously do you guys think it has a massive implication on your pre flop game that your going to start folding premium hands.
So yes I will continue to warn the micros that putting rake first is not the way to go.
If people want to disagree then fine.
Makes me chuckle that a lot of people are using anti rake strat anyway but don't even know it, they just think they value betting.
But anyway think about range pre and post before rake.
If anyone wants to rubbish what I am saying then come on bring it on.
Might actuaally get some decent poker talk rarther then someone posting "x2"
EV of folding is already -5bb.
It's expected value, we can not base the calcualtion on money we have already lost.
ie. when we flip a coin we calucalte the ev on the next flip and do not factor in the last flip
I don't feel comfortable with toy games because they suggest that certain plays are fine based on very specific circumstances which in the most part do not apply to real world poker. And can suggest to some that it's actually ok to fold in what they now deem to be similar spots.
I love your games
I will concede and say their are very specifc circumstances where folding is not zero EV
But jesus I can't remember the specific situation or even remember the calc, would have to look back at stuff.
But in the above example if I fold then for me it's 0ev
If your folding when you raise 99bb then that's not good is it
Look I agree obviously that if you assign range and do the ev calc and your looking at a slightly 0ev play then you have to factor in rake % espcially at micros where they punish you for taking thin spots.
But all this still revolves around one thing and that's range assignment. Like I suggested earlier your going to have to be so sure you have that range correct for folding pre hands in this spots.
You could even take it a lot further and suggest folding big combos draws versus top set.
If only everyone was that good that they could range people correct 100% of the time.
I wouldn't advise anyone playing micros to make these massive folds in game.
Unless like you say someone shows you their cards
so we have AA/KK/AK/QQ
Its a fold against these players
Fact.
It's a 3 bet shove over 21bb of dead money
If you really can lay down QQ here and narrow villian as above then well done you
readless you just can't fold this can you
I am never readless. I have a nitdar.