Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat

bbMike

It a shame that the last thread got shut down as it 'served no purpose', despite the fact that an interesting discussion could have come of it. Throughout the debate I think we could have ruled out collusion, changed the OP title and removed references to aliases. But no. So I thought I'd try to continue anyway.

I had previously posted that in the BB (1k) if a short stack shoves UTG for 2k, that it's a standard call if you've got about 7k+ behind and are holding anything other than what hot-otomer would describe as 'rubbish' (jeez have you seen the garbage it calls 'top cards'?....).

The_Don90 replied than with 10k+ he'd call with any two cards, and I agree.

But when do we fold?  I omitted to consider the other table in my answer (the complaint had come from the short stack at the other table). I had said that there is value in allowing a small amount of risk for the reward of removing another place, but if we are on the bubble and the other table has other shorter stacks etc then there really is no reason to be the one to make the call, let it go round, we're guaranteed getting through.

These are my thoughts, not structured well enough to generate further discussion perhaps, but I wanted to continue from the other thread that I felt was getting somewhere (given there is a distinct lack of 'useful' poker chat here in Poker Chat).

Rich_Poor

In Response to Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

It a shame that the last thread got shut down as it 'served no purpose', despite the fact that an interesting discussion could have come of it. Throughout the debate I think we could have ruled out collusion, changed the OP title and removed references to aliases. But no. So I thought I'd try to continue anyway. I had previously posted that in the BB (1k) if a short stack shoves UTG for 2k, that it's a standard call if you've got about 7k+ behind and are holding anything other than what hot-otomer would describe as 'rubbish' (jeez have you seen the garbage it calls 'top cards'?....). The_Don90 replied than with 10k+ he'd call with any two cards, and I agree. But when do we fold?  I omitted to consider the other table in my answer (the complaint had come from the short stack at the other table). I had said that there is value in allowing a small amount of risk for the reward of removing another place, but if we are on the bubble and the other table has other shorter stacks etc then there really is no reason to be the one to make the call, let it go round, we're guaranteed getting through. These are my thoughts, not structured well enough to generate further discussion perhaps, but I wanted to continue from the other thread that I felt was getting somewhere (given there is a distinct lack of 'useful' poker chat here in Poker Chat).
Posted by bbMike

Haven't read your earlier post, but my initial thoughts about this are:-

At this stage, with 7k, can we risk over 1/4 of our stack without a descent hand ?

How many people are still to act?

How big are their stacks?

If a bigger stack shoves on us, what we gonna do?

Imo this is never a call!!

SHOVE or FOLD

Tikay10

In Response to Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

It a shame that the last thread got shut down as it 'served no purpose', despite the fact that an interesting discussion could have come of it. Throughout the debate I think we could have ruled out collusion, changed the OP title and removed references to aliases. But no. So I thought I'd try to continue anyway. I had previously posted that in the BB (1k) if a short stack shoves UTG for 2k, that it's a standard call if you've got about 7k+ behind and are holding anything other than what hot-otomer would describe as 'rubbish' (jeez have you seen the garbage it calls 'top cards'?....). The_Don90 replied than with 10k+ he'd call with any two cards, and I agree. But when do we fold?  I omitted to consider the other table in my answer (the complaint had come from the short stack at the other table). I had said that there is value in allowing a small amount of risk for the reward of removing another place, but if we are on the bubble and the other table has other shorter stacks etc then there really is no reason to be the one to make the call, let it go round, we're guaranteed getting through. These are my thoughts, not structured well enough to generate further discussion perhaps, but I wanted to continue from the other thread that I felt was getting somewhere (given there is a distinct lack of 'useful' poker chat here in Poker Chat).
Posted by bbMike

Morning Mike.

Yes, I suuppose all those things COULD have been done, but the whole thrust of the thread suggested that two players had colluded, & it named them, so it was CORRECT to close the thread.

There was no credible evidence of any collusion.

Just because players appear to play, in the view of others, sub-optimally, does not mean they are colluding. There could be a hundred or more valid & legitimate reasons why the hands were played as they were.

It is unforgiveable to name the players in those circumstances. How would the OP have liked being called a cheat because he played in a (possibly) non-optimal way? If the boot were on the other foot........ 

If someone thinks foul play is at hand, they need to report it to Customer Care. I would suggest they need credible evidence before doing so though.
 
Both players have a long history on this site (see the reasoned comments by GaryQQQ) & they deserve to be protected from allegations which lack credible evidence. If someone thinks they were behaving improperly, the ONLY route is Customer Care. 

Such threads will ALWAYS be closed you cannot "name & shame" without proof. 

The mere fact that you consider there is room for an interesting discussion about calling ranges says it all. We ALL play poker differently, & we have every right to spend our money any way we like, as long as it is within the Rules.   

I am sure someone, intolerant & oblivious to the views of others, will come along & say Player X HAD to call. They'd be wrong. They did not HAVE to do anything.

Tikay10

PS - Good luck Mike if you are playing any of the Summer UKOPS. I'll be playing a couple of them again tonight, maybe see you then.

bbMike

Top of the morning Tikay.

the whole thrust of the thread suggested that two players had colluded, & it named them, so it was CORRECT to close the thread.

Yes I agree, just thought it was a shame as the conversation had moved on, maybe a mod edit would have been better but I can see why it was closed.

There was no credible evidence of any collusion. Just because players appear to play, in the view of others, sub-optimally, does not mean they are colluding. There could be a hundred or more valid & legitimate reasons why the hands were played as they were.

Absolutely agree, and thought it might be beneficial to allow people to discuss some of those reasons.

I am sure someone, intolerant & oblivious to the views of others, will come along & say Player X HAD to call. They'd be wrong. They did not HAVE to do anything.

There was probably some emotional bias from the OP who was a short-stack on another table and looking for some help to ladder, worth flipping the roles in this situation and consider what they would do (again, all good stuff to debate.

bbMike

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

In Response to Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat : Haven't read your earlier post, but my initial thoughts about this are:- At this stage, with 7k, can we risk over 1/4 of our stack without a descent hand ? How many people are still to act? How big are their stacks? If a bigger stack shoves on us, what we gonna do? Imo this is never a call!! SHOVE or  FOLD
Posted by Rich_Poor

We're talking 1k more from an 8k stack say, we are last to act (let's also say we are 4/10 with 9 getting through). CALL or FOLD!!

bbMike

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

PS - Good luck Mike if you are playing any of the Summer UKOPS. I'll be playing a couple of them again tonight, maybe see you then.
Posted by Tikay10

Have had great fun playing more than I should have, boy's birthday today so had to promise the Mrs an amnesty tonight! Run well.

Tikay10

Hi Mike,

Yes, it was a shame it had to be closed, but the Mod acted perfectly correctly.

There is an odd sort of role-reversal here. The Mod is criticised for closing the thread, but the OP had potentially libelled two players .....! In no way should the Mod be taking criticism here, it was not him that spoke out of turn.

The world of Online is a very odd & unbalanced place! 
 
Anyway, I'm glad you have raised the general discussion about ranges, it is a good debate.

The_Don90

I didn't even know the other thread was closed. 

However i have no interests in discussing Sky Mods. I think they have an appaulingly hard and annoying job and on the whole the do a good job. Even if we do disagree with some. 

As for the subject i think this thread was for. I play alot of sats, I speak with alot of proffessional sat grinders from other sites too. 

The situation Mike describes, is the blinds are 500/1k and we're on BB and i also believe we are chip leader (from a comment on other thread). So I'm going to assume we have around 15k on a sky sat for that to be the case in most of these UKOPs style sats. 

Someone shoves - for 2k or less, and everyone else folds. We're on the BB and have 1k invested. I call with literally any two cards. The reason for this is, at worst we're 20%, but often going to be 40% with a random two cards, we're not going to make it 100% of the time if we fold to the seat (purely because if everyone does that variance gets insane) so around 30% of the time we can guarentee it now, without damamging our stack. Given that we already have a chunk invested in relation to oppos stack, i think a call with as low as 72o makes perfect sense. 

Now if the villian has 2.5k and we can consider folding some of the worse dribble. If we have slightly less or are in the danger zone our selves i think we can fold. 

However in the instance of OP i think its a standard call. 

Now that is not to say i dislike the accused players play. He might think he had a seat 100% locked up, and he played accordingly. I will not critise that 

Batkin88

Depends on the format and sat/cash bubble placing in comparison to your stack. If e.g there are 2 tables left and you are mid stacked with 2 to go prior to the bubble this should be a fold as you are stacking up a shorty more than needed and you don't need to risk with a free orbit coming round. If 10 bigs is the equivalent to a big stack then yes you can call as your stack still dominates the rest of the table if you miss out. But calling with any 2 whilst only considering your own and the villain stack size isn't optimal. You need to get the average stack and consider where you will be when you don't win the hand in comparison to the leader board.

Going back to original post if you have 10 bigs should you really be calling anything? If they are UTG and shove you could say they have anything they just don't want the bb to hit them, but far likely they have picked up an ACE,KING or QUEEN and stuck it in.

Rich_Poor

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat : We're talking 1k more from an 8k stack say, we are last to act (let's also say we are 4/10 with 9 getting through). CALL or FOLD!!
Posted by bbMike

Sat here by the pool in Lanzarote with any 2 half descent cards I'd call and book everyone their seat :-)

At the table with only 7 bigs, same 2 cards, I fold.

Don't want 2 double the short stack, leaving me with only 5k.

I shut down, sit tight, the rest can fight it out!!

Thank the guy who busts out next :-p

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

Depends on the format and sat/cash bubble placing in comparison to your stack. If e.g there are 2 tables left and you are mid stacked with 2 to go prior to the bubble this should be a fold as you are stacking up a shorty more than needed and you don't need to risk with a free orbit coming round. If 10 bigs is the equivalent to a big stack then yes you can call as your stack still dominates the rest of the table if you miss out. But calling with any 2 whilst only considering your own and the villain stack size isn't optimal. You need to get the average stack and consider where you will be when you don't win the hand in comparison to the leader board. Going back to original post if you have 10 bigs should you really be calling anything? If they are UTG and shove you could say they have anything they just don't want the bb to hit them, but far likely they have picked up an ACE,KING or QUEEN and stuck it in.
Posted by Batkin88

Yeah but 72o even has 34% equity against say A4 and we're calling 1k to win the 3k in the middle. Obv a satellite changes the situation, but in a normal MTT then yeh we can't fold any hand really if we're in the BB and a player has gone all in for 2xBB and we're last to act/everyone else has folded cos we'll always be getting 3to1 on our money and will always have the right price unless we could say that he's only shoving his 2xBB with a very tight range (which would be stupid)

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat : Yeah but 72o even has 34% equity against say A4 and we're calling 1k to win the 3k in the middle. Obv a satellite changes the situation, but in a normal MTT then yeh we can't fold any hand really if we're in the BB and a player has gone all in for 2xBB and we're last to act/everyone else has folded cos we'll always be getting 3to1 on our money and will always have the right price unless we could say that he's only shoving his 2xBB with a very tight range (which would be stupid)
Posted by Lambert180

Understand what your saying but in an MTT format you will get this scenario likely only once an MTT. You are taking a punt that you are going to get 34% equity but can easily lose 10% of your stack with a terrible hand. Granted MTT's play different to sats as I don't think the call should be made in a sat format (which is op question I think) but even on an MTT format I would rather double up to 14 bigs say rather than have this punt and then double up to 12. Also you are removing possible orbits from the table to find the cards to shove with. Maybe im just a nit but I would need a half decent hand to call but not any 2.

bbMike

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat : Yeah but 72o even has 34% equity against say A4 and we're calling 1k to win the 3k in the middle. Obv a satellite changes the situation, but in a normal MTT then yeh we can't fold any hand really if we're in the BB and a player has gone all in for 2xBB and we're last to act/everyone else has folded cos we'll always be getting 3to1 on our money and will always have the right price unless we could say that he's only shoving his 2xBB with a very tight range (which would be stupid)
Posted by Lambert180

If we have a good deal of chips behind, and a win guarantees the seat I think it being a Sat makes it more of a call than in an MTT. Batkin's assessment of 'where you are in relation to other stacks AFTER you lose the hand I think is very important'. Giving a small stack a walk and another orbit could come back to bite you if no-one is making these calls.  I think it's interesting.

Certainly meant no malice to the mod, I said it was a shame that the thread was closed.  It was also a shame that the original thread named players and asked whether collusion was involved, as they could have easily vanilla coated their question and started this very discussion.

rubydu

i posted the other thread, maybe i shouldnt have named names or said i suspected collusion.

But on at least 4 occasions on the bubble 9 players left with 8 winning seats to the £110 main, at 2K 4K blinds the BB folded to the SB when the shove only cost the BB another call of  beetween 1K AND 2k each time,i was on the other table hanging in with a short stack as were another 3 players. +2 on my table shortish and the said SB from the table in question. said player was really short the same as me i.e 1-2 BBs.

if the BB player in question had called on any of the 4 occasions,he would still have been the tourney chip leader and in no danger what so ever, if he had lost the hand,with as i have said 2 short and 2 other players on 1-2 BBs. 

If as i was and im sure they were,watching the other table on the bubble,then they would both have known the bubble situation.

I personally rightly or wrongly under the BB players circumstances cannot fold any hand whatsoever to these SB players shoves.

Imyself haveplayed pokerfor many years live and online,and i say things how i see them,in poker and in life.

this situation tottally stank to me.

And if these players are friends then i would bet my mortgage on my original threads statement being correct.

And although i have nothing but total respect for TKAYthe comment that both players have a long history with sky poker is completely irrelivent,other it may suggest that there is a chance that they do know each other. I myself am quite new to sky poker,but as ive said i am a poker player of 12 years with a great deal of experience,but this sitution was new to me i must say. the folds in those positions were wrong which ever way you careto look at it.

bbMike

If there are 2 or more players really short on the other table, this is more reason to fold IMO.

GaryQQQ

If you're the big stack on the bubble of a satellite and folding every hand 100% guarantees you a seat then you should do exactly that; fold every hand. Including pocket AA.

Poker is a dog-eat-dog game, to maximise profits you have to be selfish and do what's best for you, not what's best for short stacks on other tables.

Batkin88

As Gary says above if you are the chippy and guaranteed a seat by folding you should insta fold every hand regardless, you certainly shouldn't be the one trying to knocl the one out on the bubble anyway. Let the little stacks fight it out if there is a shorty in the SB then he is lucky as you are playing your own game at this point. All it takes is double him up once and then he is going to be a nuisance on the next orbit.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

i posted the other thread, maybe i shouldnt have named names or said i suspected collusion. But on at least 4 occasions on the bubble 9 players left with 8 winning seats to the £110 main, at 2K 4K blinds the BB folded to the SB when the shove only cost the BB another call of  beetween 1K AND 2k each time,i was on the other table hanging in with a short stack as were another 3 players. +2 on my table shortish and the said SB from the table in question. said player was really short the same as me i.e 1-2 BBs. if the BB player in question had called on any of the 4 occasions,he would still have been the tourney chip leader and in no danger what so ever, if he had lost the hand,with as i have said 2 short and 2 other players on 1-2 BBs.  If as i was and im sure they were,watching the other table on the bubble,then they would both have known the bubble situation. I personally rightly or wrongly under the BB players circumstances cannot fold any hand whatsoever to these SB players shoves. Imyself haveplayed pokerfor many years live and online,and i say things how i see them,in poker and in life. this situation tottally stank to me. And if these players are friends then i would bet my mortgage on my original threads statement being correct. And although i have nothing but total respect for TKAYthe comment that both players have a long history with sky poker is completely irrelivent,other it may suggest that there is a chance that they do know each other. I myself am quite new to sky poker,but as ive said i am a poker player of 12 years with a great deal of experience,but this sitution was new to me i must say. the folds in those positions were wrong which ever way you careto look at it.
Posted by rubydu

Hi Ruby,

I see that in a different light.

At least one of the 2 players has been here for ever, & is known by just about every player on the site. He also plays at most of the SPT's.  That was my (perhaps badly made) point. It was a secondary point, but relevant, imo - if he was the sort of chap to collude, I think he would have been sussed a long time ago. That excepted, of course, you would be perfectly correct.  

My primary point was that you strongly suggested they were colluding. Without credible evidence, you just cannot & should not say such things. You can very easily damage a man's reputation for life. Repairing his reputation is much harder.

Saying he played badly (in your opinion) is a COMPLETELY different thing. As many have suggested, the situation on the other Table was also very relevant. One of the two players you were cross with is a VERY experienced Satellite player, & once won a £10,0000 WSOP Package via Satellites here.

I just think we should not rush to judgement in such matters, & we definitely should not make such accusations in public. It is not at all nice to be on the wrong end of such accusations . 

If you have concerns as to the game play of the 2 players, I strongly urge you to complain to Customer Care. That is the correct, & only, course of action.

Anyway, that was yesterday - hope you are in a few of tonight's UKOPS Events. If so, see you shortly, I hope, & good luck. 

 

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Calling ranges of a big stack late in a Sat:

If you're the big stack on the bubble of a satellite and folding every hand 100% guarantees you a seat then you should do exactly that; fold every hand including pocket AA. Poker is a dog-eat-dog game, to maximise profits you have to be selfish and do what's best for you, not what's best for short stacks on other tables.
Posted by GaryQQQ

WRONG

FCHD

How so Don? What GaryQQQ has described is standard satellite theory, isn't it?