My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play

DoubleAAA

THEThe logic behind me calling here was to play my position and play against him post-flop, something which Jac35 did not factor in when berating me for calling him with K6s pre-flop.  I have to question his call with top pair, 2nd kicker, calling off 5.6k into 8.8k pot.  He's losing to JJJ, KJ, 666, QTd. Ruled out AQd as he'd expect me to ship it pf.He's flipping against ATd,A6d 50/50 and is marginally ahead 55/45 vs all Ax flush draws.Now does he really think Im shipping here with KT, QTo?I got lucky and spiked 2 pair, shoved on him making him think it's a flush draw, knowing he's going to call me off with AK, and KQ.Thoughts on the hand?  Hand History #696444924 (21:52 04/10/2013)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancenachocheesSmall blind 75.0075.0013850.00scousestarBig blind 150.00225.0015860.00 Your hole cardsK6   cullumFold    MRLUCKYCall 150.00375.0011545.00Jac35Raise 510.00885.0022845.00DoubleAAACall 510.001395.006362.50nachocheesFold    scousestarFold    MRLUCKYCall 360.001755.0011185.00Flop  K6J   MRLUCKYCheck    Jac35Bet 750.002505.0022095.00DoubleAAAAll-in 6362.508867.500.00MRLUCKYFold    Jac35Call 5612.5014480.0016482.50Jac35ShowKQ   DoubleAAAShowK6   Turn  6   River  3   DoubleAAAWinFull House, 6s and Kings14480.00 14480.00

DoubleAAA

Just looking at the entire range he's 50.7/49.2% and that's IF he really thinks I would do this with KT and QTo.

A2s-ATs
KTs,KJs,KTo,KJo
QTs,QTo
66,JJ

If we remove KT and QT then it's 33/67 to me.

F_Ivanovic

If you were a tight player and didn't call with hands like K6s OTB then he might have reason to fold it because you will only have strong hands in your range.

 You forget that when you shove all in here he only needs 38.7% vs your range to actually make the call because of pot odds. Therefore he's obliged to call unless he somehow puts you on a really tight range that doesn't include weaker kings/jacks or QT.

When you call with K6s pre-flop, what do you do when the flop comes KJ4 with a FD, do you just call him down? What about when you miss, do you ever try and bluff-raise? The fact is K6s is not a profitable call pre-flop unless your willing to a) make moves and b) go with hands when you do flop top pair. Even then it's not neccessarily profitable but just calling pre to hit 2 pair or a flush draw is not going to be winning in the long run. The point I'm making though is that if he knows you call this loose pre he knows you're forced to get it in wider, otherwise you will be folding too much post flop and burning way too many chips.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

If you were a tight player and didn't call with hands like K6s OTB then he might have reason to fold it because you will only have strong hands in your range.  You forget that when you shove all in here he only needs 38.7% vs your range to actually make the call because of pot odds. Therefore he's obliged to call unless he somehow puts you on a really tight range that doesn't include weaker kings/jacks or QT. When you call with K6s pre-flop, what do you do when the flop comes KJ4 with a FD, do you just call him down? What about when you miss, do you ever try and bluff-raise? The fact is K6s is not a profitable call pre-flop unless your willing to a) make moves and b) go with hands when you do flop top pair. Even then it's not neccessarily profitable but just calling pre to hit 2 pair or a flush draw is not going to be winning in the long run. The point I'm making though is that if he knows you call this loose pre he knows you're forced to get it in wider, otherwise you will be folding too much post flop and burning way too many chips.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

He did not know that I would call him that loose as he had not seen me show down any weak hands.  I did not call to hit 2 pair, that was just lucky.  If we hit the K top pair then I'm going with the hand as that was what I had decided pf. Any A lands then I'm giving up so if it's K high I'm hoping he doesn't have Ak, KQ, if so then I'm out, but I would expect a shove to fold out KJ KQ and all lower pairs. I'm shoving all non A flops with a face card and floating flop to shove all non A turns.

Possibly it's a call but to berate my play just showed a lack of understanding upon his part of what I set out to achieve when playing the hand.  Does my plan make sense?

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play : He did not know that I would call him that loose as he had not seen me show down any weak hands.  I did not call to hit 2 pair, that was just lucky.  If we hit the K top pair then I'm going with the hand as that was what I had decided pf. Any A lands then I'm giving up so if it's K high I'm hoping he doesn't have Ak, KQ, if so then I'm out, but I would expect a shove to fold out KJ KQ and all lower pairs. I'm shoving all non A flops with a face card and floating flop to shove all non A turns. Possibly it's a call but to berate my play just showed a lack of understanding upon his part of what I set out to achieve when playing the hand.  Does my plan make sense?
Posted by DoubleAAA

Just because he hasn't seen you show weak hands on this table doesn't mean he can't have pegged you as being somewhat loose (maybe in position) - he could have taken notes from playing with you previously. OR he could just be going on the general population in this spot and against an avg range in this spot KQ is completely fine to call with and has more than the required equity. You'll see plenty of players shoving worse K's and 2nd pairs here. As I said the fact you're willng to shove non A flops and go with it on K high proves that he didn't make the wrong decision here vs your range.

Obviously it's wrong for him to berate you and he should know better, but at the same time saying his call was bad is wrong!

DoubleAAA

Like I said its marginal but it's ignorant to label my play donkish when if he bothered.  To shark scope me he would see I'm a winning player and that obviously I set out with a plan, just that I got lucky with the 2 pair.  Remember he misses the flop 67% of the time and small pairs only flop a set 1in 8 so my plan is a profitable one at that.

The reason I questioned his call is because he berated my play and if anything, his call is more difficult to make than my plan pre flop.

Please note, I did not say his call was wrong, I said it was questionable.

Talon

  Quite funny looking through this thread.

 Only one conclusion comes to mind. Berating someone in the chatbox in front of 4 or 5 witnesses is not good at all and shouldnt really happen. But then in revenge to go onto a public forum to berate the player back shows a considerable lack of class.

 So the conclusion his berating of you was bad, the whole purpose of this thread is far worse though

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

Like I said its marginal but it's ignorant to label my play donkish when if he bothered.  To shark scope me he would see I'm a winning player and that obviously I set out with a plan, just that I got lucky with the 2 pair.  Remember he misses the flop 67% of the time and small pairs only flop a set 1in 8 so my plan is a profitable one at that. The reason I questioned his call is because he berated my play and if anything, his call is more difficult to make than my plan pre flop. Please note, I did not say his call was wrong, I said it was questionable.
Posted by DoubleAAA

wrong- 

he's not correct for berating and ur not doin much justice trying to make his play/call look bad- your plan was flawed from the start- as you stated that if u hit a king ur goin with it- so should you of hit a K high board without makin 2pairs u were playing this exactly the same- so his call is correct.. by jus playing this way gives villan an easy chance to hero fold big pairs and worse hands wen u do hit a King but the RIO when u hit and he has better is not a winning play regardless of your sharkscope (which i havnt bothered to look at either)

Phantom66

Just talking about the hand...

Calling in position pf with a wide range is ok - K6 maybe a bit too wide for my taste - but ok, Personally to get that wide I would rather be raising an unopened pot or a passive limper.

If you were planning to c-bet a check and take most pots down then that's a reasonable strategy for accumulating chips mid-tourney. 2nd caller makes the odds of getting away with that a bit thin though.

Given likely tight range of your villain and having another player in the hand, overall I think your call has -ve expectation long term.

You were lucky to hit 2 pair and have opponent hit TP/2nd Kicker and then you got it all-in good so wp there.

Back to the ethics...

Don't agree with the bad chat

Don't agree with the named post here either.

I think an unnamed analyse my hand post would be better received on this forum.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play : wrong-  he's not correct for berating and ur not doin much justice trying to make his play/call look bad- your plan was flawed from the start- as you stated that if u hit a king ur goin with it- so should of of hit a K high board without makin 2pairs u were playing this exactly the same- so his call is correct.. by jus playing this way gives villan an easy chance to hero fold big pairs and worse hands wen u do hit a King but the RIO when u hit and he has better is not a winning play regardless of your sharkscope (which i havnt bothered to look at either)
Posted by LnarinOO

So when it's a K high board most of the time he stacks me in this given situation, but how often does the K or Q land? 33% of the time but even less as we already have one of his K so we are taking down this flop most of the time as he cannot call a shove with K high.  Now what if villain had AJs or AQ, what would he be doing on this exact flop when we shove? Again he will fold.

As he had the K that only leaves two more in the deck, so it is fair to say that we hardly ever hit our K on that flop right?

I'm not trying to make his play bad, I just posted with an explanation of why I played the hand.  I never once stated his call was bad or poor, I only said its questionable as it's not an easy call IMO.

@telon

I did not post this to berate him as his call is by far not the worst call in the world, it's marginal but I wanted to explain why I played it. This is a poker clinic after all right? Surely we are here to give an insight into played hands etc in which I think I have explained in depth my reasoning.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

Just talking about the hand... Calling in position pf with a wide range is ok - K6 maybe a bit too wide for my taste - but ok, Personally to get that wide I would rather be raising an unopened pot or a passive limper. If you were planning to c-bet a check and take most pots down then that's a reasonable strategy for accumulating chips mid-tourney. 2nd caller makes the odds of getting away with that a bit thin though. Given likely tight range of your villain and having another player in the hand, overall I think your call has -ve expectation long term. You were lucky to hit 2 pair and have opponent hit TP/2nd Kicker and then you got it all-in good so wp there. Back to the ethics... Don't agree with the bad chat Don't agree with the named post here either. I think an unnamed analyse my hand post would be better received on this forum.
Posted by Phantom66

Point taken with leaving the name in, my bad so apologies there.

This actually makes my shove look stronger IMO.  

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play : So when it's a K high board most of the time he stacks me in this given situation, but how often does the K or Q land? 33% of the time but even less as we already have one of his K so we are taking down this flop most of the time as he cannot call a shove with K high.  Now what if villain had AJs or AQ, what would he be doing on this exact flop when we shove? Again he will fold. As he had the K that only leaves two more in the deck, so it is fair to say that we hardly ever hit our K on that flop right? I'm not trying to make his play bad, I just posted with an explanation of why I played the hand.  I never once stated his call was bad or poor, I only said its questionable as it's not an easy call IMO. @telon I did not post this to berate him as his call is by far not the worst call in the world, it's marginal but I wanted to explain why I played it. This is a poker clinic after all right? Surely we are here to give an insight into played hands etc in which I think I have explained in depth my reasoning.
Posted by DoubleAAA

ok so ur entire plan was to jam any flop? please show me how this is goin to ever be good? 

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play : ok so ur entire plan was to jam any flop? please show me how this is goin to ever be good? 
Posted by LnarinOO

Any non A high flop or Q high, unless checked to me in which I would cbet and give up if called.  I only ever lose my stack if it comes k high.  My stack was 6k and. The pot before he bets the flop is around 1.6k. Now how often does the A or K land? Around 28% of the time so the K lands around 11% of the time. We pick up 1.6k chips 72% of the time and lose 6k 11% of the time unless of course we spike the 6or the flush.  That to me is +ev.

LnarinOO

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play : Any non A high flop or Q high, unless checked to me in which I would cbet and give up if called.  I only ever lose my stack if it comes k high.  My stack was 6k and. The pot before he bets the flop is around 1.6k. Now how often does the A or K land? Around 28% of the time so the K lands around 11% of the time. We pick up 1.6k chips 72% of the time and lose 6k 11% of the time unless of course we spike the 6or the flush.  That to me is +ev.
Posted by DoubleAAA

your wrong- ur not the aggressor in the pot - i will not get check to you 72% of the time. so the times it comes
any board where your gonna have to float to take it away or rarley 3way get the opportunity where it does get checked to you there probally not c/folding. your now trying to make excuses for your pre flop call with 45bb , and giving incorrect math to try and back it up- your not going to make me change my mind when i know im right no matter what %% your throw in your arguments-

Lambert180

You're missing a MASSIVE piece of information though... you don't KNOW he has KQ!!

It's all very good now saying I won't get stacked unless it's K-high, but how dya know he hasn't flatted with JJ/TT/99 and isn't gonna fold, or flatted with 22-88 and flops a set, or flats with something that gives him a strong enough draw to call off (which may still have you beat with just A-high). Or he has KJ and you're crushed, or a million other possibilties.

Cold calling 3bets with K6s this shallow just won't be good.

Phantom66

Situational question.

did you have any history with this opponent?

You seemed keen to play him post flop.

Presumably you had used aggression+position to get him off hands before?

Jac35

I'm pretty disappointed that some of you have just been happy to take doubleaaa's word for it regarding the chat.

Not sure exactly what I said, think it was "sigh, good call pre" or such like. Obviously shouldn't have said anything.  Certainly didn't say he was donkish or anthing else.I admit I did respond when I was told it was an "horrific call" and said that "it was an easy call, sure you're doing that with weaker k's or draws"

Obviously shouldn't have commented in the first place. However,  after that I was certainly not the aggressive one in the chat bix.

Apologies if I did offend you greatly. I would hope from playing with many of you regulary over the last couple if years, you would accept that this is the exception rather than the norm with me. 

Slipwater

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

I'm pretty disappointed that some of you have just been happy to take doubleaaa's word for it regarding the chat. Not sure exactly what I said, think it was "sigh, good call pre" or such like. Obviously shouldn't have said anything.  Certainly didn't say he was donkish or anthing else.I admit I did respond when I was told it was an "horrific call" and said that "it was an easy call, sure you're doing that with weaker k's or draws" Obviously shouldn't have commented in the first place. However,  after that I was certainly not the aggressive one in the chat bix. Apologies if I did offend you greatly. I would hope from playing with many of you regulary over the last couple if years, you would accept that this is the exception rather than the norm with me. 
Posted by Jac35

Nicely put, Jac.

Triple A - breathe and move on.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

You're missing a MASSIVE piece of information though... you don't KNOW he has KQ!! It's all very good now saying I won't get stacked unless it's K-high, but how dya know he hasn't flatted with JJ/TT/99 and isn't gonna fold, or flatted with 22-88 and flops a set, or flats with something that gives him a strong enough draw to call off (which may still have you beat with just A-high). Or he has KJ and you're crushed, or a million other possibilties. Cold calling 3bets with K6s this shallow just won't be good.
Posted by Lambert180

He did not 3bet, he opened and I. Flatted.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play : your wrong- ur not the aggressor in the pot - i will not get check to you 72% of the time. so the times it comes any board where your gonna have to float to take it away or rarley 3way get the opportunity where it does get checked to you there probally not c/folding. your now trying to make excuses for your pre flop call with 45bb , and giving incorrect math to try and back it up- your not going to make me change my mind when i know im right no matter what %% your throw in your arguments-
Posted by LnarinOO

He only flops a pair 28% of the time, so when he debts and I shove he has to fold unless he hit his K or Q. How is this not clear?  I'm not making excuses for my play, it was my intentions from the outset. Go do the maths yourself and then show me where mathematically I'm wrong. Now if he has AA or QQ then that's just bad timing on my part but overall imo the play is +cEV.

DoubleAAA

In Response to Re: My Favourite hand of the night for being berated because of my play:

I'm pretty disappointed that some of you have just been happy to take doubleaaa's word for it regarding the chat. Not sure exactly what I said, think it was "sigh, good call pre" or such like. Obviously shouldn't have said anything.  Certainly didn't say he was donkish or anthing else.I admit I did respond when I was told it was an "horrific call" and said that "it was an easy call, sure you're doing that with weaker k's or draws" Obviously shouldn't have commented in the first place. However,  after that I was certainly not the aggressive one in the chat bix. Apologies if I did offend you greatly. I would hope from playing with many of you regulary over the last couple if years, you would accept that this is the exception rather than the norm with me. 
Posted by Jac35

I just typed a long response to this and it didn't post grrrr lol. Anyway jacks no offence was intended, hope you understand my logic behind my play whether it was right or wrong. You were not rude to me but your response was sarcastic and so I responded with, yes it was a good call, although unsure about your all in call. It's small stuff, just when someone is sarcastic I'll usually really respond back, I did so in chat and then I posted this hand to explain my play. I was in no way rude to you though and am always friendly at the tables. 

I know you have many friends here and that's good. No hard feelings pal and look forward to seeing you at the tables. Peace?