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20NL Mastercash - C/R Turn w/ GS + FD
Lambert180
Member Posts: 12,197
No notes on villian but I think we can say they probably aren't particularly great just from the 3b size.
Thoughts on my line here? Didn't see any benefit in 4betting pre and obv just never folding 9Ts for that price this deep.
C/C I think is fine on this flop, don't think we should be check/folding or donking or c/r.
The turn, I pick up a little extra equity with my GS on the turn, don't really wanna be taking a passive C/C line hoping to hit, playing fit or fold, and it's also a spot where I'd often take a similar line flop and turn with big hands like sets.
What do you think about the turn check/raise? My only concern was something that I think Lnarinoo mentioned on one of Ivan's hands recently that check/raising could potentially force ourselves to get blown off the hand if they come back over the top... just seems like such a super narrow range of hands they can come back over the top of me though.
EDIT: Looking back at it now, dya think if I do c/r, it shuold be a bit bigger, more like £11?
Thoughts on my line here? Didn't see any benefit in 4betting pre and obv just never folding 9Ts for that price this deep.
C/C I think is fine on this flop, don't think we should be check/folding or donking or c/r.
The turn, I pick up a little extra equity with my GS on the turn, don't really wanna be taking a passive C/C line hoping to hit, playing fit or fold, and it's also a spot where I'd often take a similar line flop and turn with big hands like sets.
What do you think about the turn check/raise? My only concern was something that I think Lnarinoo mentioned on one of Ivan's hands recently that check/raising could potentially force ourselves to get blown off the hand if they come back over the top... just seems like such a super narrow range of hands they can come back over the top of me though.
EDIT: Looking back at it now, dya think if I do c/r, it shuold be a bit bigger, more like £11?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Diminuendo | Small blind | £0.10 | £0.10 | £71.75 | |
| rancid | Big blind | £0.20 | £0.30 | £41.43 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| Chrissy_C | Fold | ||||
| middys | Fold | ||||
| Lambert180 | Raise | £0.60 | £0.90 | £52.09 | |
| X | Raise | £1.60 | £2.50 | £37.41 | |
| Diminuendo | Fold | ||||
| rancid | Fold | ||||
| Lambert180 | Call | £1.00 | £3.50 | £51.09 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| Lambert180 | Check | ||||
| X | Bet | £1.75 | £5.25 | £35.66 | |
| Lambert180 | Call | £1.75 | £7.00 | £49.34 | |
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| Lambert180 | Check | ||||
| X | Bet | £3.50 | £10.50 | £32.16 | |
| Lambert180 | Raise | £9.10 | £19.60 | £40.24 | |
Comments
I know I have to barrel alot of rivers, I'm prepared for that
I kind of agree that flatting with 66/JJ is never going to be good on such a wet board on the flop. So when you do flat its less likely you have them IMO. You dont have 77 - why would you call the flop if you did?
Best made hand we rep IMO is A7.
So if I was villain... id be convinced you either had A7 or a hand with decent equity. A7 less likely as you called a 3 bet out of position pre.
I dont like the turn raise for this reason... we cant rep many made hands well enough to get a fold from Ax. As played i'd flat the turn and depending on river either fold or raise (either as bluff or value depending on river).
Also what can I play for stacks with this deep if I c/r the flop? If he has AJ and I've coolered him, yes, he's deffo gonna continue with the NFD as he'll have TP too but other than that, even if he has like AKo, I doubt he's gonna get 200xBB in w/ TPTK.
I reckon raising the turn gets folds from pretty much every non-2pr Ax and definitely Jx which imo are hands that are obv ahead now but I don't think would even pay me off if I do hit anyway. Whereas c/r the flop I don't think is ever getting folds from Ax
Also, don't think the implied odds are great with the more passive line, if I C/C x 2 and then donk lead a completed flush card or c/r a completed flush card, I'm probably never getting paid off cos it's looks so much like what it is. An 8 I can get paid but that is a smaller part of my equity.
Do you C/R on the turn now? There are now way more hands that beat you that you let get there and a whole bunch of others with decent enough equity to call on the turn too.
Do you not think that C/R the flop then barrelling the turn and possibly river gets many people off many one pair Ax hands? You certainly rep a stronger range from the outset. I think we need to playing this hand OOP very aggressively from the outset. As you said you didnt want to just call down for our draw but I do think we do this a street too late.
I just dont think the turn C/R is going to work a bunch of the time as to me at least it doesnt make too much sense. It certainly looks like a hand you have or a KJ type hand of diamonds for example.
Sorry Lambert but you did ask...
Have you actually got any reads, can vill fold top pair will they have draws/2nd pr/2 prs when they get to turn
also when you raise turn, if you can't call a shove your actually setting money on fire
doing this readless is a bit spewy, you say they are bad because of 3 bet size - does this mean they gonna fold!
Also how do you rep a wider range on the turn than on the flop ?
Gotta say you make a lot of population reads, some spots where you just need specific reads.
You say you dont have any reads. You are OOP and have no idea what villain is holding. You dont know if villain is capable of folding top pair if you miss and barrel again. IMO you've just turned your hand with decent equity onto the turn into a massive bluff, praying oppo folds (but have no idea if he's capable of doing so) if you miss the river, and just getting quite lucky if you hit with just the one card to come.
The slightly small 3b isn't a big deal tbh and I'm not playing the hand based on that, was just pointing out I have no reads on opponent and this was the only obversation I could make. It's not even a big deal, but it's slightly smaller than standard and would expdect if anything to go a little bigger 200xBB deep
I'm readless so obv I don't have any reads on bet sizing, or whether they can get off certain hands so I have to paly the hand the best I can in a vacuum, and imo without reads I think we have to assume people are not stacking off 200xBB deep with TPNK/2ndpr etc. Doubt they'll be making light call downs until they have reads on me which they wont have
Anyway, we could very easily rep a set here. The one thing we can say, and which is demonstrated by some of the comments in this thread, is that we don't look like we're taking a typical drawing line. Generally speaking, turn check-raises are stronger than flop check-raises, too.
I'd also agree that we can take some basic reads on villain's play that he's unlikely to be delighted with his hand. Yes, he might just be sizing his bets poorly with a set of Aces, but most of the time this line is going to be exactly what it looks like: Relative weakness.
I agree that specific reads would be nice and it would be very helpful indeed to know that this guy isn't just going to station us off with his Ax hands.
The one argument I would make against this plan to check-raise the turn is that when we wait until the turn, we're check-raising against a stronger range than on the flop. If villain is holding QQ, JJ or maybe even TT, he could very well c-bet the flop but most of the time villains are going to check-back the turn on an Ace-high flop. So when check-raising the flop we can believe we're getting the villain off those pairs, but check-raising the turn we're only hoping to get him off his Ax hands... and we don't know if he can fold those.
Of course if he checks back those QQ or JJ then on the flop we're getting 25% pot odds with 38% equity when we see two cards, so check-calling flop to check turn is fine.
We're very much repping a narrow value range with the check-raise, especially on a turn that can't have helped us, but then we're not calling pre-flop just to check-call down on a draw. We do have decent pot odds to make the call on the turn, though, and we have the problem of him coming over the top when we raise, stealing our equity by forcing us to fold... If we call the turn we don't have to get a lot more on the river to make it +EV.
I don't mind the delayed check-raise and I don't think it's unbalanced. I do think it's repping a narrow range against someone we don't know can fold, though.
Whereas if I c/r the flop then I think he will still call with Ax cos it's more likely I'm on a draw and he can be just hoping I slow down
By the way, as you ask; I would make my check-raise a little bigger on the turn. It's tough to work out in fifteen seconds, of course, but if we can make the pot ever-so-slightly smaller than the size of the effective stack, that's what we should want to do, I think.
Although we do lose more when he 3-bets the turn... that's not something we love.
Basically it's a semi bluff, and how does this work - they gotta fold a % of the time or we still get it with a decent amount of equity to make the play +EV given the % they fold
so your repping a set/2 pr becuae your line is super stroung - I agree you do look stroung but can villian fold enough of the time - without reads your still bobbing for apples
Give Mr Loner a badge for his sick soul read
I'm still getting the right price for this, right? If we assume we're calling £8.40 to win £51.76 cos I just don't think he's ever folding.
I only went to scouts for about two weeks as a kid before deciding it was terrible and refusing my parents' demands to go back. I never got a badge... until now. Woop, woop!
What would a "Soul read" badge look like, anyway?
so u want 20%
u have 25% equity
o sry if u say 100% sets you have to remove 7s so.......................your still ok to call