In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : The video was by TMoney209 and it was related to sngs when having 10bbs or less and you want to gain folds with your marginal hands as it looks super strong. Of course this will only work against a player who knows what they're doing, so if it's against a random then they're more likely to flat to see a flop without realising they're priced in to calling on the flop as well. Back to the hand in question, it would not be a 3bet as the guy had limped, so it would be a raise vs a limp, and to be quite honest, with him limping his hand is weak and remember he's missing that flop 67% of the time so I don't actually mind that he calls us for us to then donk jam the flop. As this was a DYM, then the emphasis is on survival so I would just shove. Posted by DoubleAAA
ok my bad its not a 3 bet i just auto presumed there was a raise without really looking. doesnt change the fact though thats its still a simple all in shove regardless of whether its a dym or an mtt. things dont need to be made so complicated with stacks like this. you are a massively trying to be to technical in playing a simple shove stack.
This is an example what happened early this evening by not shoving with a 10bb stack against a player who does not recognise that this screams of strength and will call. Although he ended up hitting a nice flop he will have been priced in regardless on the flop.
So you can carry out this play against with a marginal hand against a good player. As a couple of you have already stated, this action makes our hand look super-strong.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : The video was by TMoney209 and it was related to sngs when having 10bbs or less and you want to gain folds with your marginal hands as it looks super strong. Of course this will only work against a player who knows what they're doing, so if it's against a random then they're more likely to flat to see a flop without realising they're priced in to calling on the flop as well. Back to the hand in question, it would not be a 3bet as the guy had limped, so it would be a raise vs a limp, and to be quite honest, with him limping his hand is weak and remember he's missing that flop 67% of the time so I don't actually mind that he calls us for us to then donk jam the flop. As this was a DYM, then the emphasis is on survival so I would just shove. Posted by DoubleAAA
I'm confused - r u wanting a fold or a call now when you make this move? you're trying to induce an all in from randomers but folds against decent players?
Plus he had aq he wasn't that weak he just played it badly.
the last hand is surely an example of why we don't want to do this?!
We started the hand as the 80% fav and on the flop we're now 66% - we've let them catch up considerably. With the 300 bet on the flop they now have to call 300 to win 1400.
and your raise pre does make your hand super strong but then again it IS super strong.
Against decent players you wont get this chance very often because decent players would not limp into the pot and so with your stack you wouldn't scare anyone- they'dhave to call regardless. so the shove achieves the same thing!
the last hand is surely an example of why we don't want to do this?! We started the hand as the 80% fav and on the flop we're now 66% - we've let them catch up considerably. With the 300 bet on the flop they now have to call 300 to win 1400. and your raise pre does make your hand super strong but then again it IS super strong. Against decent players you wont get this chance very often because decent players would not limp into the pot and so with your stack you wouldn't scare anyone- they'dhave to call regardless. so the shove achieves the same thing! Posted by jdsallstar
If I had shoved this hand pre, then this guy would not have called and I would have gained 300 chips, however because he is a poor player I made it so that he calls and without realising he is priced in. When you want a call you do it with a strong hand vs a poor player. When wanting a fold you can do it with a marginal hand vs a good player.
Imagine, I do this with let's say 9Ts and you're holding KTs, would you flat, shove or fold?
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : If I had shoved this hand pre, then this guy would not have called and I would have gained 300 chips, however because he is a poor player I made it so that he calls and without realising he is priced in. When you want a call you do it with a strong hand vs a poor player. When wanting a fold you can do it with a marginal hand vs a good player. Posted by DoubleAAA
but in this hand good players are not folding. say in this example the decent player had raised to 300 you then limit raise to 600 (leaving you 350 back) - they're snapping you off or more likely just raising to put you all in. so your all in with a marginal holding - brilliant!
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : If I had shoved this hand pre, then this guy would not have called and I would have gained 300 chips, however because he is a poor player I made it so that he calls and without realising he is priced in. When you want a call you do it with a strong hand vs a poor player. When wanting a fold you can do it with a marginal hand vs a good player. Imagine, I do this with let's say 9Ts and you're holding KTs, would you flat, shove or fold? Posted by DoubleAAA
i'm not limping k10 and I have to call any raise pre because you have so little back.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : i'm not limping k10 and I have to call any raise pre because you have so little back. Posted by jdsallstar
No you're not ever limping but what if you're in the blinds and I have done this from the CO or BTN? The poor players are the ones who limp and they are the ones whom we price in with strong hands.
A lot of you said shove all-in pre-flop. I did consider this but (if I remember rightly) I had the second biggest stack with the top three getting paid. I didn't want to go all-in incase I lost the pot and therefore lost most of my chips. Would then probably end up not cashing in that situation. Everyone who had to act after me had a smaller chipstack so I felt the raise was fine, why be super aggressive and risk not cashing when I'm comfortable on chips in comparison to others? Don't forget the aim in a DYM is not to win, but come in the top three. Having said that, if one of them went all-in pre-flop, then I would have called. As played, I shoved when I hit the flop. Posted by peter27
We cant see all the stack sizes in the hand you posted but we can see 3 (940, 810 and 885) all are below the 1k starting stack so that means at least 1 of the remaining 3 has a bigger stack than us so by no means are we a lock on cashing.
If you shove here you're getting folds more times than not. This hand you wouldn't have but then we're happy to get the call as 70% favourite. We need 60% wins in these so if we get our money in as 70% favourite every time we're laughing. If they fold our stack is now 1200 and our stack is quite big compared to the rest.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : No you're not ever limping but what if you're in the blinds and I have done this from the CO or BTN? The poor players are the ones who limp and they are the ones whom we price in with strong hands. Posted by DoubleAAA
Depends how good a player I rate you to begin with (the fact your short stacked and your making small raises from it wouldn't help your cause). If it's from the button/co and I have AJ+, 8s+ - I'm having a stab at getting your whole stack. I'm a dym nit as well a lot of people would shove you a lot lighter.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : Depends how good a player I rate you to begin with (the fact your short stacked and your making small raises from it wouldn't help your cause). If it's from the button/co and I have AJ+, 8s+ - I'm having a stab at getting your whole stack. I'm a dym nit as well a lot of people would shove you a lot lighter. Posted by jdsallstar
You should be shoving far wider than this. But like I said earlier, if I did this from the CO and you were in the bb with KTs, you're more likely to fold. Flatting would be meehh, so you would either have to fold or shove. Now a bad player would more than likely flat.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : You should be shoving far wider than this. But like I said earlier, if I did this from the CO and you were in the bb with KTs, you're more likely to fold. Flatting would be meehh, so you would either have to fold or shove. Now a bad player would more than likely flat. Posted by DoubleAAA
i'm saying i'm shoving these hands to your weird bet in the cut off/button. As for k10 and not calling this raise, I'm probably not calling half my stack either in a sng should you have shoved instead of the weird bet.
furthermore say I do fold this hand then I'll give your future shoves less respect because you play monsters by under-betting them pre and if you do this stunt again you are also more likely to get looked up because you will not be given the credit for continual monsters.
I have no idea what you're trying to prove with that AA hand.
It's a ridiculous raise. I don't care about the outcome of the hand, playing AA (or indeed any premium hand) like that is simply awful out of that stack size.
And if were gonna play our hand as backwards as that, surely we just shove the flop?
I have no idea what you're trying to prove with that AA hand. It's a ridiculous raise. I don't care about the outcome of the hand, playing AA (or indeed any premium hand) like that is simply awful out of that stack size. And if were gonna play our hand as backwards as that, surely we just shove the flop? Posted by hhyftrftdr
Really? On a side note, are you going to the spt - Nottingham?
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : Yes really and no. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Firstly learn to conduct yourself in a way that you can lay-off with the insults. It's easy to disagree about poker and how we should play a hand but there really is not a need to be insulting. It's a shame you won't be going, would've given us the opportunity to speak about poker and I have this funny feeling that somehow you wouldn't be speaking in the same tone that you type.
Okay, let's take a situation with us in the small blind with AA and 10BB:
There's a limper in the pot and we believe that they will call a raise to 4BB-5BB but will fold if we shove. Clearly raising to 5BB is the correct play (without ICM considerations). Easy game when we have a good read.
Now we're in the small blind and a good player has min-raised in front of us. We say raised because good players aren't limping. We must have a bigger stack to make the theory fit, so let's say we have 13BB-15BB.
Now we decide to stick in a 5BB 3-bet with our marginal hand. We believe that the villain can only continue with a big hand, since we're leveraging our stack against them. Clearly he's going to believe he has no fold equity so he's folding or playing for stacks, right?
The trouble with those pesky good players is that they take notice of what we're doing. So this particular trick won't work very many times or they'll just figure out that our range is not strong. We also have the problem that if they do shove, even if we believe they haven't figure out our weak range, we genuinely are priced in to make the call most of the time, despite believing we've strengthened our opponent's range for getting it in.
What's worse is that we won't want to make this play when we actually have a big hand, because we won't want to make it look like a big hand. So as soon as our opponents realise what we're doing - that we have a strong 3-bet shove range and a weak small 3-bet range - we're stuffed... and if they know we're a thinking player the first thing they'll ask themselves is "Why would you want to make yourself look so strong?"
We're better off disguising our hand by 3-bet shoving with all our hands in a vacuum against good players.
When we're not in a vacuum and we're doing this sort of thing against good players we're familiar with, we're just levelling against them. We can't really discuss that as a particular strategy because it's all based on that history and "I know that you know that I know" etc... We still have to be aware that we're either pricing ourselves in to make the call when shoved on or we're putting a huge proportion of our stack in and then giving up our equity by folding, so doing this with hands that we're not happy getting it in with is not a good plan.
Okay, let's take a situation with us in the small blind with AA and 10BB: There's a limper in the pot and we believe that they will call a raise to 4BB-5BB but will fold if we shove. Clearly raising to 5BB is the correct play (without ICM considerations). Easy game when we have a good read. Now we're in the small blind and a good player has min-raised in front of us. We say raised because good players aren't limping. We must have a bigger stack to make the theory fit, so let's say we have 13BB-15BB. Now we decide to stick in a 5BB 3-bet with our marginal hand. We believe that the villain can only continue with a big hand, since we're leveraging our stack against them. Clearly he's going to believe he has no fold equity so he's folding or playing for stacks, right? The trouble with those pesky good players is that they take notice of what we're doing. So this particular trick won't work very many times or they'll just figure out that our range is not strong. We also have the problem that if they do shove, even if we believe they haven't figure out our weak range, we genuinely are priced in to make the call most of the time, even though we believe we've strengthened our opponent's range for getting it in. What's worse is that we won't want to make this play when we actually have a big hand, because we won't want to make it look like a big hand. So as soon as our opponents realise what we're doing - that we have a strong 3-bet shove range and a weak small 3-bet range - we're stuffed... and if they know we're a thinking player the first thing they'll ask themselves is "Why would you want to make yourself look so strong?" We're better off disguising our hand by 3-bet shoving with all our hands in a vacuum against good players. When we're not in a vacuum and doing this sort of thing against good players we're familiar with, we're just levelling against them. We can't really discuss that as a particular strategy because it's all based on that history and "I know that you know that I know" etc... We still have to be aware that we're either pricing ourselves in to make the call when shoved on or we're putting a huge proportion of our stack in and then giving up our equity by folding, so doing this with hands that we're not happy getting it in with is not a good plan. Posted by BorinLoner
This is a good analysis Borin but we are not talking about doing this with a 3bet. I'm talking about raising over 1 limper or doing this by open-raising.
Comments
So 12k in chips, how can you be in the top 3 with that stack?
Even if it's 1k starting stack (so 6k in play), you still have less than starting stack, how can you be one of the safe stacks?
This is an example what happened early this evening by not shoving with a 10bb stack against a player who does not recognise that this screams of strength and will call. Although he ended up hitting a nice flop he will have been priced in regardless on the flop.
So you can carry out this play against with a marginal hand against a good player. As a couple of you have already stated, this action makes our hand look super-strong.
Plus he had aq he wasn't that weak he just played it badly.
We started the hand as the 80% fav and on the flop we're now 66% - we've let them catch up considerably. With the 300 bet on the flop they now have to call 300 to win 1400.
and your raise pre does make your hand super strong but then again it IS super strong.
Against decent players you wont get this chance very often because decent players would not limp into the pot and so with your stack you wouldn't scare anyone- they'dhave to call regardless. so the shove achieves the same thing!
If I had shoved this hand pre, then this guy would not have called and I would have gained 300 chips, however because he is a poor player I made it so that he calls and without realising he is priced in. When you want a call you do it with a strong hand vs a poor player. When wanting a fold you can do it with a marginal hand vs a good player.
Imagine, I do this with let's say 9Ts and you're holding KTs, would you flat, shove or fold?
If you shove here you're getting folds more times than not. This hand you wouldn't have but then we're happy to get the call as 70% favourite. We need 60% wins in these so if we get our money in as 70% favourite every time we're laughing. If they fold our stack is now 1200 and our stack is quite big compared to the rest.
Firstly learn to conduct yourself in a way that you can lay-off with the insults. It's easy to disagree about poker and how we should play a hand but there really is not a need to be insulting. It's a shame you won't be going, would've given us the opportunity to speak about poker and I have this funny feeling that somehow you wouldn't be speaking in the same tone that you type.
There's a limper in the pot and we believe that they will call a raise to 4BB-5BB but will fold if we shove. Clearly raising to 5BB is the correct play (without ICM considerations). Easy game when we have a good read.
Now we're in the small blind and a good player has min-raised in front of us. We say raised because good players aren't limping. We must have a bigger stack to make the theory fit, so let's say we have 13BB-15BB.
Now we decide to stick in a 5BB 3-bet with our marginal hand. We believe that the villain can only continue with a big hand, since we're leveraging our stack against them. Clearly he's going to believe he has no fold equity so he's folding or playing for stacks, right?
The trouble with those pesky good players is that they take notice of what we're doing. So this particular trick won't work very many times or they'll just figure out that our range is not strong. We also have the problem that if they do shove, even if we believe they haven't figure out our weak range, we genuinely are priced in to make the call most of the time, despite believing we've strengthened our opponent's range for getting it in.
What's worse is that we won't want to make this play when we actually have a big hand, because we won't want to make it look like a big hand. So as soon as our opponents realise what we're doing - that we have a strong 3-bet shove range and a weak small 3-bet range - we're stuffed... and if they know we're a thinking player the first thing they'll ask themselves is "Why would you want to make yourself look so strong?"
We're better off disguising our hand by 3-bet shoving with all our hands in a vacuum against good players.
When we're not in a vacuum and we're doing this sort of thing against good players we're familiar with, we're just levelling against them. We can't really discuss that as a particular strategy because it's all based on that history and "I know that you know that I know" etc... We still have to be aware that we're either pricing ourselves in to make the call when shoved on or we're putting a huge proportion of our stack in and then giving up our equity by folding, so doing this with hands that we're not happy getting it in with is not a good plan.