Well, if we're talking about doing it over a limper, we're never talking about doing it over good players. Good players don't limp.
If we're talking about raising into an unopened pot for 40-50% of our stack, to rep big hands... then I don't know what on Earth we're thinking, to be honest.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : This is a good analysis Borin but we are not talking about doing this with a 3bet. I'm talking about raising over 1 limper or doing this by open-raising. Posted by DoubleAAA
So you're talking about open min raising a decent player in the bb with a marginal holding from a small stack to rep a monster?! That is just never working! They are calling with semi decent hands and reraising the top of their range!
If we're raising 1 limper (a poor player) with a monster we're playing our hand face up and they're calling the raise they would likely call the all in anyway! So the small re raise loses value on your premium hand! This situation can't arise with a good player because they aren't limping!
This theory of yours has been shot down from every angle possible time to give it up
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : So you're talking about open min raising a decent player in the bb with a marginal holding from a small stack to rep a monster?! That is just never working! They are calling with semi decent hands and reraising the top of their range! If we're raising 1 limper (a poor player) with a monster we're playing our hand face up and they're calling the raise they would likely call the all in anyway! So the small re raise loses value on your premium hand! This situation can't arise with a good player because they aren't limping! This theory of yours has been shot down from every angle possible time to give it up Posted by jdsallstar
I think wires are crossed here. We're talking about raising almost half of our 10bb stack vs a good player with a marginal hand and doing exactly the same thing but with a monster hand vs a poor player. What has min-raising got to do with this?
Just to clarify, Im talking raising between 45-55% of our 10bb stack. Im not talking anything to do with min-raising.
Guys, it's something that I utilize and it works for me. I tried to explain it as best as I can, raising 45-55% of our 10bb stack with strong hands vs a limper (poor player) and open raising 45-55% of our 10bb stack with a marginal (repping a strong hand) vs a good player in the blinds. That's all I tried to say
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : I think wires are crossed here. We're talking about raising almost half of our 10bb stack vs a good player with a marginal hand and doing exactly the same thing but with a monster hand vs a poor player. What has min-raising got to do with this? Just to clarify, Im talking raising between 45-55% of our 10bb stack. Im not talking anything to do with min-raising. Posted by DoubleAAA
Good player in the big blind is still call/raising your half stack raise with the hands they would call a shove by you anyway!
Again if the poor player is going to flat a half stack raise then 9 times out of 10 they are calling a shove anyway!
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : 1:Good player in the big blind is still call/raising your half stack raise with the hands they would call a shove by you anyway! Again 2:if the poor player is going to flat a half stack raise then 9 times out of 10 they are calling a shove anyway! Posted by jdsallstar
1: Why would the good player still call? Our hand screams a monster, he's surely not calling off with A9s here as he would rightly do so to an open shove is he?
2: I disagree with this statement. You'll find the greater percentage will not. Their happy to call off another 3-4bbs not even thinking that their gonna be committed on the flop but the thought of putting another 9bbs in with K3s or 86s is asking a bit much from them.
Whether we can value-raise more effectively for 50% of our stack against a weak player is going to be read dependent. I agree with jdsallstar that, generally speaking, we should expect them to call a shove just as often as 50% of our stack. However, if we have a particular read to the contrary, so be it.
It's just this idea that raising to 50% of our stack is a good plan against a good player that we have a problem with. Just ask yourself what happens if, say blind v blind, we min-raise out of our 10BB stack.
The good player in the big blind is going to see that we are short and that any shove he makes is going to give us pot odds of 40%. He should think that any hand we're raising with is a hand we're going with and therefore his shoving range should be relatively narrow. Now, since we're only 10BBeff anyway, it is only relatively narrow and won't consist solely of monster hands, so against his shoving range we should probably be calling even if we are holding a marginal hand. If we can't call that shove, knowing that the Big Blind's shoving range is going to be not especially narrow, then we shouldn't be open-raising at all because we're just putting money in the middle then giving up our equity.
So let's take that on and make our raise to 50% of our stack. Now we need to believe that the villain will perceive this is as a monster hand, because he thinks we're bad enough to be so obvious about it. I don't think I've ever played an opponent that is that easily read, to be honest.
Then we have to assume that he's folding his entire range except AA or KK, if he believes we must be holding a monster ourselves, yes? Trouble is that when he does shove, we're getting pot odds of 25% to call.
We have to be holding absolute rags and be absolutely certain that this good player thinks we're super-transparent. If he can ever be making this shove with a single hand that we're 30% or better against, we have to call.
That's the trouble; Good players won't perceive this as being a monster hand unless they think we're absolutely hopeless. They'll just think it's funny and get it in with the same range they'd shove against our min-raise because they wouldn't think we could fold having min-raised from a 10BB stack, either. If we then fold getting 25% pot odds, it's horrendous.
As I say, if we do this against someone we're very familiar with and have a history of this sort of raise with, we might end up levelling them into a fold. That's just way too specific a situation to be worth discussing here.
The thing is a few people on here said that my suggestion to Peter27 on page 1 screamed of us holding a monster hand and it would gain a greater chance of a fold as compared to an all in which has less credit. Agreed it's player dependant.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : 1: Why would the good player still call? Our hand screams a monster, he's surely not calling off with A9s here as he would rightly do so to an open shove is he? 2: I disagree with this statement. You'll find the greater percentage will not. Their happy to call off another 3-4bbs not even thinking that their gonna be committed on the flop but the thought of putting another 9bbs in with K3s or 86s is asking a bit much from them. Posted by DoubleAAA
Depending on your image I may or may not call half my stack (and effectively my tournament) with a9. The same decision would apply to the shove. It would all depend on my reads on you. As I said earlier this may work in isolation but your future shoves will then be called lighter and you can't repeat the same stunt because will have lost respect.
Regarding poorer players folding to a shove but flatting a half stack raise, as borin says this might work given perfect reads but only the poorest of players will do this - the same ones who'll call a shove with their k3 anyway! I've played 3000 of these sng's and predicting what the weakest players will do is near impossible! Some will fold, some will call, some will shove- I personally go for max value everytime
The thing is a few people on here said that my suggestion to Peter27 on page 1 screamed of us holding a monster hand and it would gain a greater chance of a fold as compared to an all in which has less credit. Agreed it's player dependant. Posted by DoubleAAA
Yes that's what I'm saying if this does work and you steal the blinds you'll get called lighter the next time you pull this move or you shove! Given that you'll only have 11bb's after stealing the blinds you'll have to make a move again soon and chances are it will be with a less than premium hand! If we shove and steal the blinds are table image is still intact and our future shoves should get the appropriate respect.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : Yes that's what I'm saying if this does work and you steal the blinds you'll get called lighter the next time you pull this move or you shove! Given that you'll only have 11bb's after stealing the blinds you'll have to make a move again soon and chances are it will be with a less than premium hand! If we shove and steal the blinds are table image is still intact and our future shoves should get the appropriate respect. Posted by jdsallstar
When we keep shoving, our shoves also gain less respect. I understand what you're trying to say in regards in trying to keep things simple and to shove our entire range and this is perfectly fine. I just tried to share a different strategy
I understand you're trying to share a different strategy and whilst I agree in isolation it may work long term the better +ev decision is the shove IMO!
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : Firstly learn to conduct yourself in a way that you can lay-off with the insults. It's easy to disagree about poker and how we should play a hand but there really is not a need to be insulting. It's a shame you won't be going, would've given us the opportunity to speak about poker and I have this funny feeling that somehow you wouldn't be speaking in the same tone that you type. Posted by DoubleAAA
When have I insulted you? And I have zero interest in discussing any aspects of poker with you.
I have many friends on this forum, and I'm pretty comfortable in the way I conduct myself. Perhaps look a little closer to home when it comes to conduct.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : When have I insulted you? And I have zero interest in discussing any aspects of poker with you. I have many friends on this forum, and I'm pretty comfortable in the way I conduct myself. Perhaps look a little closer to home when it comes to conduct. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Describing the way I play a hand as 'Backwards' is not really on is it? That for me is insulting.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : Describing the way I play a hand as 'Backwards' is not really on is it? That for me is insulting. Posted by DoubleAAA
If you find that insulting, you really need to get out more.
Isnt it 2k starting stacks? So 12k in chips, how can you be in the top 3 with that stack? Even if it's 1k starting stack (so 6k in play), you still have less than starting stack, how can you be one of the safe stacks? Posted by Lambert180
1k starting stack, and one guy had a lot of chips haha :-)
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here? : We cant see all the stack sizes in the hand you posted but we can see 3 (940, 810 and 885) all are below the 1k starting stack so that means at least 1 of the remaining 3 has a bigger stack than us so by no means are we a lock on cashing. If you shove here you're getting folds more times than not. This hand you wouldn't have but then we're happy to get the call as 70% favourite. We need 60% wins in these so if we get our money in as 70% favourite every time we're laughing. If they fold our stack is now 1200 and our stack is quite big compared to the rest. Posted by jdsallstar
I understand everything you've said but I'm not sure I agree with the pre-flop shove still. Of course with my stack size I'm not a lock on cashing, but I do have the second highest stack. Given the size of the blinds, and the chipstacks of the other five players, surely there is no harm in playing more cautiously and waiting for others to get knocked out?
I'm not being sarcastic but if you wanna be cautious and are scared of busting, then just fold pre. That would be better imo than raising with any intention of folding later in the hand
Raising a large % of your stack and expect folds with 10bb against limpers is slightly optimistic.
To actually acheive this I have a big hand illusion then you need to play against good players, needless to say your not going to be playing against players that will fold.
The only benefit in raising larger is with hands you don't really want to shove and race against a range where they get to realise all there equity. By raising 3,4 or 5x will look stronger and you may fold out a certain % of range. The only drawback is when you do this with top of range good villians are going to fold. On the reverse bad villians are going to call/shove.
All in all it's a terrible overall strategy.
It may work in a vaccum but I can't see how you would implement it against good players without it being totally transparent.
I'm not being sarcastic but if you wanna be cautious and are scared of busting, then just fold pre. That would be better imo than raising with any intention of folding later in the hand Posted by Lambert180
I wouldn't say I was scared of busting, I did eventually move all-in when hitting the flop, just showing a little caution pre-flop. If I didn't hit the flop, and he raised, I could have folded and still had a good chance of cashing?
Raising a large % of your stack and expect folds with 10bb against limpers is slightly optimistic. To actually acheive this I have a big hand illusion then you need to play against good players, needless to say your not going to be playing against players that will fold. The only benefit in raising larger is with hands you don't really want to shove and race against a range where they get to realise all there equity. By raising 3,4 or 5x will look stronger and you may fold out a certain % of range. The only drawback is when you do this with top of range good villians are going to fold. On the reverse bad villians are going to call/shove. All in all it's a terrible overall strategy. It may work in a vaccum but I can't see how you would implement it against good players without it being totally transparent. Posted by rancid
But I wasn't expecting a fold - I expected him to call, but I had the AK so knew I was in a strong position.
Comments
If we're talking about raising into an unopened pot for 40-50% of our stack, to rep big hands... then I don't know what on Earth we're thinking, to be honest.
Just to clarify, Im talking raising between 45-55% of our 10bb stack. Im not talking anything to do with min-raising.
Guys, it's something that I utilize and it works for me. I tried to explain it as best as I can, raising 45-55% of our 10bb stack with strong hands vs a limper (poor player) and open raising 45-55% of our 10bb stack with a marginal (repping a strong hand) vs a good player in the blinds. That's all I tried to say
2: I disagree with this statement. You'll find the greater percentage will not. Their happy to call off another 3-4bbs not even thinking that their gonna be committed on the flop but the thought of putting another 9bbs in with K3s or 86s is asking a bit much from them.
It's just this idea that raising to 50% of our stack is a good plan against a good player that we have a problem with. Just ask yourself what happens if, say blind v blind, we min-raise out of our 10BB stack.
The good player in the big blind is going to see that we are short and that any shove he makes is going to give us pot odds of 40%. He should think that any hand we're raising with is a hand we're going with and therefore his shoving range should be relatively narrow. Now, since we're only 10BBeff anyway, it is only relatively narrow and won't consist solely of monster hands, so against his shoving range we should probably be calling even if we are holding a marginal hand. If we can't call that shove, knowing that the Big Blind's shoving range is going to be not especially narrow, then we shouldn't be open-raising at all because we're just putting money in the middle then giving up our equity.
So let's take that on and make our raise to 50% of our stack. Now we need to believe that the villain will perceive this is as a monster hand, because he thinks we're bad enough to be so obvious about it. I don't think I've ever played an opponent that is that easily read, to be honest.
Then we have to assume that he's folding his entire range except AA or KK, if he believes we must be holding a monster ourselves, yes? Trouble is that when he does shove, we're getting pot odds of 25% to call.
We have to be holding absolute rags and be absolutely certain that this good player thinks we're super-transparent. If he can ever be making this shove with a single hand that we're 30% or better against, we have to call.
That's the trouble; Good players won't perceive this as being a monster hand unless they think we're absolutely hopeless. They'll just think it's funny and get it in with the same range they'd shove against our min-raise because they wouldn't think we could fold having min-raised from a 10BB stack, either. If we then fold getting 25% pot odds, it's horrendous.
As I say, if we do this against someone we're very familiar with and have a history of this sort of raise with, we might end up levelling them into a fold. That's just way too specific a situation to be worth discussing here.
Thank you for the advice. I'll ignore you from now on.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?: I understand everything you've said but I'm not sure I agree with the pre-flop shove still. Of course with my stack size I'm not a lock on cashing, but I do have the second highest stack. Given the size of the blinds, and the chipstacks of the other five players, surely there is no harm in playing more cautiously and waiting for others to get knocked out?
To actually acheive this I have a big hand illusion then you need to play against good players, needless to say your not going to be playing against players that will fold.
The only benefit in raising larger is with hands you don't really want to shove and race against a range where they get to realise all there equity. By raising 3,4 or 5x will look stronger and you may fold out a certain % of range.
The only drawback is when you do this with top of range good villians are going to fold.
On the reverse bad villians are going to call/shove.
All in all it's a terrible overall strategy.
It may work in a vaccum but I can't see how you would implement it against good players without it being totally transparent.
In Response to Re: Did I make mistakes here?: But I wasn't expecting a fold - I expected him to call, but I had the AK so knew I was in a strong position.
I think I actually didn't address the OP either, so I'll do that now.