Raise flop? Best line?

LARSON7

Opponent is spewy and bluffy, i want to keep in the aggressor, i'm not to worried about opponent behind so i just call the flop. I'm confident, they will barrell the turn... thoughts?

marge	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£9.02
moyle06	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£25.22
	Your hole cards	4 3
greydeath1	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£42.19
Max	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£24.57
marge	Raise		£0.85	£1.60	£8.17
moyle06	Fold
LARSON7	Call		£0.60	£2.20	£41.59
Max	Call		£0.60	£2.80	£23.97
Flop
		6 8 K
marge	Bet		£1.40	£4.20	£6.77
LARSON7	Call		£1.40	£5.60	£40.19
Max	Call		£1.40	£7.00	£22.57
Turn
		9
marge	All-in		£6.77	£13.77	£0.00
LARSON7	All-in

Slipwater

You've got to be a little concerned, because you have the lowest possible flush. You've called an all-in (over a fifth of your stack) and there is still someone to act. I guess you put the shover on a high club? I think I would actually be tempted to shove over the top, to possibly get rid of the third guy in the pot, in case he is the one drawing to the higher flush.

DOHHHHHHH

Flatting flop is perfect, flatting turn is perfect

If you flat turn and get raised behind, pass the puke bucket !

gazza127

I've already said this to you, but I'll say it again.

I'm raising flop everytime.  Our flopped flush is vulnerable to a turn card - the last thing we want to see is another club.  Even if the opponent is spewy its hard to see him barrelling a club turn without a better club in his hand - even if he barrels without a club can we call? The second villain also could be drawing - I think we need to be building the pot to play for both villains stacks.

Too many cards kill our action on the turn when we flat so we should be trying to get as much money in now.  Nut flush draws come along for the ride, as do sets and weird two pairs.  Even top pairs with no clubs might call thinking you are on a draw yourself and the allusive overpair.

I remember playing a hand much like this months ago almost identical, which I stuck on my diary - TommyD was quick to perk up and ask me why I didn't raise the flop.  I justified it by saying I knew villain was barrelling any turn, but as it turns out I have since found out that this is not the optimal way to play it.  Many times I've missed out on value by not raising the flop and charging for already made hands and draws, and a lot of the time I end up letting the villain get there just by flatting.  I ended up stacking yoyo not too long ago by raising a flop like this convincing him I was on a draw - but I built a pot and could play for stacks by the river.

So yeah I raise even with villains stack size - if he jams over I snap call because a lot of the time he has a nut flush draw or a set and not a higher made flush, plus we can charge villain 2 for whatever made/unmade hand he has.

F_Ivanovic

Whilst raising flop is definitely standard, we have to account for the specific situation we're in gazza. Here we have a read that opponent is barrelling any turn AND he doesn't have much left. So we can definitely decide to slow play - It'd be much different if villain had a bigger stack though although you could consider then flatting flop and then raising turn. Or even slow playing all 3 streets and raising river if he really would 3 barrel recklessly.

Lambert180

FWIW, there's only a 16% chance that the turn is going to be another club, and that is pretty much the only card that will kill our action/make us fear we've gone behind.

I don't hate raising the flop either, but I think flatting is fine too. When we flat flop, then turn is deffo a flat.

BTW, Larson, you should be worried about the guy behind cos he's the guy that has 200xBB+!! He's the one we'd love to stack.

gazza127

In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line?:

FWIW, there's only a 16% chance that the turn is going to be another club, and that is pretty much the only card that will kill our action/make us fear we've gone behind. I don't hate raising the flop either, but I think flatting is fine too. When we flat flop, then turn is deffo a flat. BTW, Larson, you should be worried about the guy behind cos he's the guy that has 200xBB+!! He's the one we'd love to stack.
Posted by Lambert180

Ergo Raise />Call

LARSON7

I never put in any reads about "Max", he plays 2 hands an hour, only hand he has won in 2 hours is set of 5s over a shortish stack who had top pair top kicker.

Quite happy on the turn i have the best hand 99% of the time.

The fact a tightish player has called flop, he must have AK AQ with one club, possibly 10s jacks with 1 club.

Re Flop. i like the smooth call, i'm purely doing it because of their stack. They only have about £7 behind. Most of their range they have to fold to a raise.

Re Turn, i really like Dohhhhs idea, smooth calling, if max calls, shoving any blank river.

I just shoved when i knew i was good. Definatly missed out on value from Max, for maybe abnother 7 quid, though i wuld never get his stack unless i coolered him,

Lambert180

Yeah but Gazza we don't NEED to raise to play for stacks at all. Look at the SPR.

Say we flat the turn, and that villian flats behind... the pot will now be £26 and he only has about £15 left for the river. If he's got a hand he'll stack off with then he's getting stacked, if he doesn't then it's useless raising the flop/turn anyway.

Actually, now I've explained that, I like a flat even more lol

gazza127

In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line?:

Yeah but Gazza we don't NEED to raise to play for stacks at all. Look at the SPR. Say we flat the turn, and that villian flats behind... the pot will now be £26 and he only has about £15 left for the river. If he's got a hand he'll stack off with then he's getting stacked, if he doesn't then it's useless raising the flop/turn anyway. Actually, now I've explained that, I like a flat even more lol
Posted by Lambert180

Not unless he has the nut flush draw.  If we raise flop and he calls behind we can commit much more of his stack on the turn if he wants another card.  We aren't getting another penny on the river if he airballs. 

I raise flop to circa £4-£4.50.  Say Max and marge both come along, then the pot is about £16 by the turn instead of the £7.  We can then bet the turn a lot bigger to charge for draws - I mean if he's got a big hand anyway that he'll stack off with what's the harm in raising and committing more money earlier.  Say we raise to £4.50 max calls and marge shoves in the rest (after all he is spewy).  We can call and max will feel obliged to call behind.  Pot is now  £27 with max having less than £16 behind.  We can get all of this in on the turn for nut flush draws and hands which would have paid us off anyway.

I'm playing for max's stack, not marges and if he has a made hand I want to get value.  If he has a draw I want to get value.  I definitely raise flop as I see that as the most optimal line to get Maxs stack whether he has a draw or a made hand.

F_Ivanovic

Is nobody worried that if Max comes along to a raise he could easily have us beat? Yes, we have a flush but it is only 4 high. Think about what hands Max is probably calling a 3bet pre-flop. Is he really going to have a bare Ac and be chasing the flush that often? This is a guy that Larson has said plays like 2 hands per hour and has only got it in with a set. If he has Ac it's most likely a suited ace unless it's AcK. His range for getting it in here/continuing to a flop raise is probably sets/flushes and AcK.

HandEquityWinsTiesAcK, 88, 66, AcQc, AcJc, JcTc50.58%5,9491203c4c49.42%5,811120

(not sure if that has come out right - just realised I forgot KK, but basically against a tight range like that we only have slightly more than 50%) - so by raising flop we're isolating ourselves against a range of hands that has close to 50% equity vs us. Against that range we are barely making any money through raising flop. I haven't even included many flushes in there - with more flushes in his range we are probably going to be less than 50%. And we also might lose marge as a customer.

If we raise the turn instead we're going to be doing much better against that same range with 36.82% equity. But then again he may also decide to fold his sets to a turn raise since we look very much like a flush and he won't be getting odds to set-mine. He might also fold his AcK. So yeah even though we have the best hand we probably won't get any more value from him by raising the turn.

rancid

even folding pre verus that effective is probbaly gonna be best

raise flop 100% - get some more money in the middle

if villian has flopped flush then haha - reverse implied odds anyone

would rarther raise  flop for a number of reasons

can't think of one good reason to flat

gazza127

Finally someone agrees with me.

DOHHHHHHH

Under-repping is under-rated. ask bearlyther 

rancid

In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line?:

Under-repping is under-rated. ask bearlyther 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

if ya gonna under rep don't puke when someone raises ^

DOHHHHHHH

That's ott tho!

And the guy is vvvvv tight according to the OP. So he only has a value range to raise the turn and there's not a single hand in that range that we can beat or even have any equity against.

So puke/fold the flush. Wud be a fairly easy fold really if folding a flopped flush wasn't so hard!!!!

But we can get him to call worse by clicking call alot

gazza127

In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line?:

That's ott tho! And the guy is vvvvv tight according to the OP. So he only has a value range to raise the turn and there's not a single hand in that range that we can beat or even have any equity against. So puke/fold the flush. Wud be a fairly easy fold really if folding a flopped flush wasn't so hard!!!! But we can get him to call worse by clicking call alot
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Scared poker much?

Can't always give a perceived tight person credit - our game is so exploitable by this person if we just fold to any of his raises.

DOHHHHHHH

Very few people attempt to exploit others @ these stakes.

Doesn't matter if we're exploitable. (fwiw it wud be pretty sick for him to turn hands into bluffs ott in this spot, to make us fold yet remain ahead of the range of the maniac in front of us)

Don't think anyone on the site is that good, nvm 10nl.

rancid

In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line?:

That's ott tho! And the guy is vvvvv tight according to the OP. So he only has a value range to raise the turn and there's not a single hand in that range that we can beat or even have any equity against. So puke/fold the flush. Wud be a fairly easy fold really if folding a flopped flush wasn't so hard!!!! But we can get him to call worse by clicking call alot
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

fact that we under rep a flopped flush giving villian license to raise turn with sets/two prs/overprs now a safe turn card has dropped

folding to a turn raise would be really bad

what are the reason's for flatting flop/turn -
flop is like the best street for injecting some monies and extracting from villians on a monotone flop

basically by not raising flop we are basically happy not getting more money in while ahead
akin to not 3 betting AK pre

your going to have some super dooper reason for flating here versus these stack sizes

LARSON7

Thanks everyone for the responses, always interesting to hear others opinions, and differing opinions.

Potentially did lose out on value by shoving turn. "max" in likely hood would fold turn anyway with a smooth call.

It would have been £7 to win £20. He would have needed Ace clubs to call, and even still he's going to fold that right?

My thinking was maybe a bit back to front here,

I felt smooth call, to keep in villain, let them barrel the turn, which I was always shoving on a non club turn. A bet would really commit them given their stack.

Smooth calling the turn kept the pot small should a bad turn card come, a club. I didn't expect Max  could get involved (if I raise) he folded more than an origami pro. So also in smooth calling I atleast got another call from him which was some more value for the pot.

It's been highlighted quite a lot in this thread about Max, I didn't really look at that to be honest, I was focussed on vilian. Getting money from Max was like getting blood from a stone. But had he the Ace Clubs for sure I missed out on value. 

And raising could result in 2 folds, when I want to get some value from the hand.

DOHHHHHHH

I thought the reads I've been given off thread were on the thread, apparently guy leading is a maniac, and the guy behind is a rock solid nit type.

If it's a HU pot v the guy with the lead, do we still raise?

Seems a no brainer flat otf to me. Guy behind prob folding a lot anyway, but it'd be nice for him to get involved too.

If we raise, the 'maniac' betting cud fold hands that we beat, that he wud barrel turn with. (for stacks)

Guy behind can fold hands he might call with if we just call in front of him as opposed to raising.

Turn even easier flat.