I thought the reads I've been given off thread were on the thread, apparently guy leading is a maniac, and the guy behind is a rock solid nit type. If it's a HU pot v the guy with the lead, do we still raise? Seems a no brainer flat otf to me. Guy behind prob folding a lot anyway, but it'd be nice for him to get involved too. If we raise, the 'maniac' betting cud fold hands that we beat, that he wud barrel turn with. (for stacks) Guy behind can fold hands he might call with if we just call in front of him as opposed to raising. Turn even easier flat. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Think we are making a lot of assumptions.
What do we have? A low flopped flush. Is our hand vulnerable to a lot of cards? Yes. Do we want to build massive pot to stack both players if they have made hands or draws? Yes Do we want to give a cheap turn away to Mr Nit? No not really. Do we like money? Yes
We raise.
Its not like its a dry flop... we could be raising anything so raising doesn't even tell villains you have a massive made hand for sure. And knowing Larsons rep he probably wouldn't get credit anyway .
I genuinely don't see the benefit of flatting, when all we do is give villains a chance to catch up for pittance.
In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line? : Think we are making a lot of assumptions. What do we have? A low flopped flush. Is our hand vulnerable to a lot of cards? Yes. Do we want to build massive pot to stack both players if they have made hands or draws? Yes Do we want to give a cheap turn away to Mr Nit? No not really. Do we like money? Yes We raise. Its not like its a dry flop... we could be raising anything so raising doesn't even tell villains you have a massive made hand for sure. And knowing Larsons rep he probably wouldn't get credit anyway . I genuinely don't see the benefit of flatting, when all we do is give villains a chance to catch up for pittance. Posted by gazza127
What do our opponents have?
How do different hands within their ranges respond to the different plays we can make?
And therefore, why is raising flop better than flatting flop?
We're not scared of playing turns deepstacked, that's the only reason I can think of for raising flop with the reads given.
Can happily c/f club turns. doesn't make the flop flat bad just because the best line didn't work out this time.
In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line? : Think we are making a lot of assumptions. What do we have? A low flopped flush. Is our hand vulnerable to a lot of cards? Yes. Do we want to build massive pot to stack both players if they have made hands or draws? Yes Do we want to give a cheap turn away to Mr Nit? No not really. Do we like money? Yes We raise. Its not like its a dry flop... we could be raising anything so raising doesn't even tell villains you have a massive made hand for sure. And knowing Larsons rep he probably wouldn't get credit anyway . I genuinely don't see the benefit of flatting, when all we do is give villains a chance to catch up for pittance. Posted by gazza127
No. There are 8 clubs left in the deck and 39 non clubs, so no we're not vulnerable to a lot of cards. We can't be that scared of him housing up cos if he flopped a set, he'd almost certainly raise this flop after a bet and a call then we could decide to GII v his range of sets/bigger flushes or not. Why are we scared of 8/39 shots?
Yes but how many big draws or big hands will a nit playing 200xBB deep stack off with here? Sets, yes but he'd raise behind so we'd want to flat. Ax of clubs probably.... Kx of clubs, maybe but it's pushing it... Qx of clubs, no. So pretty narrow range we're trying to get value from
Well it's already been covered that he hasn't a pretty narrow range of hands that can catch up. Question should be, do we want to give him an easy fold with KQ/KJ maybe AK, 99-QQ? Remember he didn't 3bet when he had the chance or 4bet given the chance, and he's a nit apparently.
if seen as a nit then maybe flatting makes sense, but if seen as more creative and willing to steal then surely that increases the chances of getting value from a flop bet.
I thought the reads I've been given off thread were on the thread, apparently guy leading is a maniac, and the guy behind is a rock solid nit type. If it's a HU pot v the guy with the lead, do we still raise? Seems a no brainer flat otf to me. Guy behind prob folding a lot anyway, but it'd be nice for him to get involved too. If we raise, the 'maniac' betting cud fold hands that we beat, that he wud barrel turn with. (for stacks) Guy behind can fold hands he might call with if we just call in front of him as opposed to raising. Turn even easier flat. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
+1
Although I don't agree with the implication of an earlier post that the tight villain raising the turn to take advantage of his image as a nit would be a mark of a good player. How many good players would you describe as a nit and how many hands would a nit get to the turn with, that have so little equity that they need to bluff?
Even then, he'd be bluffing into a dry side pot and couldn't win the main pot without a value hand.
When we're flatting this flop we shouldn't be assuming that the nitty villain is going to have anything. We don't want to raise, not just because it gives that nitty villain an even easier opportunity to fold his marginal hands, but because we're preventing the shorter-stacked aggressor the chance to continue bluffing or betting his weaker value hands.
It's really easy to play for his stack on later streets when we flat, too.
If we want the nit behind us to continue in the hand, we need to flat the flop. Otherwise he has an easy fold with the entire weaker portion of his range. That means he only continues with the stronger portion of his range that F_Ivanovic has detailed. We don't like narrowing his range to hands that beat us or have good equity. As Lambert has said, there aren't that many scare cards and, even if one hits on the turn or river, we have an easy decision.
We're not playing the hand like we have the nuts. We're playing the hand in the best way to exploit out opponents. If we had the nuts we'd play it the same way but we still have a hand that's ahead of the villain's ranges for continuing in the hand if we flat the flop.
Geldy, our image does matter, of course. However, nits generally are nits because they're playing their own hand and need a big one to be happy. We also have an apparently solid read on the early position aggressor that he likes to barrel. Presumably that read applies to when we're in the pot.
I do agree with something I think rancid said earlier: We should fold pre-flop.
If we know that the EP player is going to 3-bet and then barrel a lot, we want to be getting involved with solid value hands more often than not. 34s is not a value hand.
seriously we have four high flush, villians have between them a bucket load of equity with a bare club against us if we flat we have the best hand now, raise - it's really that simple if rock type comes over the top then we have to have a little think about life your playing this hand by flatting like you have the nuts Posted by rancid
In Response to Re: Raise flop? Best line? : aiosdjcvioasdjfvioasdfjuiocvjadfiovjdfivjf level? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
The most intresting thing about this hand is how we are saying we have villians
1. nit with a 200bb stack
2. maniac with 80bb stack
totally opposing forces,mmmmmmm wtf do we do omg idk i am so confused - like having AA pre facing a raise omfg wat do i do - do i flat and keep in weaker hands !
raise for valoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
fwiw i think the nits contuation range if he flats is the same ifhe flats our raise if we size it properly and don't smash any buttons
Raise flop if u want maniac to fold A8 of diamonds Posted by DOHHHHHHH
+1 again.
Raising the flop is nothing like 3-betting pre-flop with AA.
When we 3-bet pre-flop with AA, we narrow our opponents' ranges down to hands that we have crushed and have poor equity against us. That's because we have the nuts and nothing has good equity against us. Every time we build the pot, we're gaining value. Sometimes the villains fold but we know that means we probably couldn't have got much more value anyway.
In this hand; if we raise the flop we narrow the deep-stacked villain's range to hands that beat us or have good equity against us. We fold out many hands that we have beat. We end up building the pot in a situation where we know our equity isn't too good. We also lose value from the pre-flop aggressor who we believe will pay us off on later streets if we do just flat, against whom we don't need to raise to play for stacks.
I think your forgetting we playing versus two ranges not one
i think we disagree where our continuation range and also both villians c ranges are wider
futher down the streets our ranges narrow
sorry but heavily crossing our fingers and hoping villian will barrel off versus two is slightly optismic where only reasons for flatting are for maniac to barrel and nit to flat behind
don't think you even considering turn action, where you want mainiac to barrel off into two so u can get your value
Comments
What do we have? A low flopped flush.
Is our hand vulnerable to a lot of cards? Yes.
Do we want to build massive pot to stack both players if they have made hands or draws? Yes
Do we want to give a cheap turn away to Mr Nit? No not really.
Do we like money? Yes
We raise.
Its not like its a dry flop... we could be raising anything so raising doesn't even tell villains you have a massive made hand for sure. And knowing Larsons rep he probably wouldn't get credit anyway
I genuinely don't see the benefit of flatting, when all we do is give villains a chance to catch up for pittance.
How do different hands within their ranges respond to the different plays we can make?
And therefore, why is raising flop better than flatting flop?
We're not scared of playing turns deepstacked, that's the only reason I can think of for raising flop with the reads given.
Can happily c/f club turns. doesn't make the flop flat bad just because the best line didn't work out this time.
Yes but how many big draws or big hands will a nit playing 200xBB deep stack off with here? Sets, yes but he'd raise behind so we'd want to flat. Ax of clubs probably.... Kx of clubs, maybe but it's pushing it... Qx of clubs, no. So pretty narrow range we're trying to get value from
Well it's already been covered that he hasn't a pretty narrow range of hands that can catch up. Question should be, do we want to give him an easy fold with KQ/KJ maybe AK, 99-QQ? Remember he didn't 3bet when he had the chance or 4bet given the chance, and he's a nit apparently.
we have the best hand now, raise - it's really that simple
if rock type comes over the top then we have to have a little think about life
your playing this hand by flatting like you have the nuts
Although I don't agree with the implication of an earlier post that the tight villain raising the turn to take advantage of his image as a nit would be a mark of a good player. How many good players would you describe as a nit and how many hands would a nit get to the turn with, that have so little equity that they need to bluff?
Even then, he'd be bluffing into a dry side pot and couldn't win the main pot without a value hand.
It's really easy to play for his stack on later streets when we flat, too.
If we want the nit behind us to continue in the hand, we need to flat the flop. Otherwise he has an easy fold with the entire weaker portion of his range. That means he only continues with the stronger portion of his range that F_Ivanovic has detailed. We don't like narrowing his range to hands that beat us or have good equity. As Lambert has said, there aren't that many scare cards and, even if one hits on the turn or river, we have an easy decision.
We're not playing the hand like we have the nuts. We're playing the hand in the best way to exploit out opponents. If we had the nuts we'd play it the same way but we still have a hand that's ahead of the villain's ranges for continuing in the hand if we flat the flop.
Geldy, our image does matter, of course. However, nits generally are nits because they're playing their own hand and need a big one to be happy. We also have an apparently solid read on the early position aggressor that he likes to barrel. Presumably that read applies to when we're in the pot.
I do agree with something I think rancid said earlier: We should fold pre-flop.
If we know that the EP player is going to 3-bet and then barrel a lot, we want to be getting involved with solid value hands more often than not. 34s is not a value hand.
Choose something in purple or orange instead.
aiosdjcvioasdjfvioasdfjuiocvjadfiovjdfivjf
level?
1. nit with a 200bb stack
2. maniac with 80bb stack
totally opposing forces,mmmmmmm wtf do we do omg idk i am so confused - like having AA pre facing a raise omfg wat do i do - do i flat and keep in weaker hands !
raise for valoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
fwiw i think the nits contuation range if he flats is the same ifhe flats our raise if we size it properly and don't smash any buttons
if we HU v maniac then obvviously flat
Raise flop if u want maniac to fold A8 of diamonds
Raising the flop is nothing like 3-betting pre-flop with AA.
When we 3-bet pre-flop with AA, we narrow our opponents' ranges down to hands that we have crushed and have poor equity against us. That's because we have the nuts and nothing has good equity against us. Every time we build the pot, we're gaining value. Sometimes the villains fold but we know that means we probably couldn't have got much more value anyway.
In this hand; if we raise the flop we narrow the deep-stacked villain's range to hands that beat us or have good equity against us. We fold out many hands that we have beat. We end up building the pot in a situation where we know our equity isn't too good. We also lose value from the pre-flop aggressor who we believe will pay us off on later streets if we do just flat, against whom we don't need to raise to play for stacks.
i think we disagree where our continuation range and also both villians c ranges are wider
futher down the streets our ranges narrow
sorry but heavily crossing our fingers and hoping villian will barrel off versus two is slightly optismic where only reasons for flatting are for maniac to barrel and nit to flat behind
don't think you even considering turn action, where you want mainiac to barrel off into two so u can get your value