Just been reading some of the figures up there on percentages of winning over many games and its something i,ve seen a lot ( Very small percenatges ). It seems its the hardest form of the game to make a profit over time when your sticking to one format. Then again the variance should be a bit better but for someone who,s never played poker before and was just starting to learn would you advise them to think about DYM,s or look at another format to spend their time and developing their game at? Thx P Posted by MP33
There is a huge misconception amongst players regarind expected winrate. I think we need to bare in mind that 95%+ of poker players lose money over time. I personally think Sit and Gos are the perfect way to begin poker as they encorporate so many valuable aspects.
In answer to your question, a number of factors need to be taken into consideration and there will be pros and cons to both formats. Ultimately, if you're a winning player and like cash - then play cash because it's the most all round +ev format. Saying that, it isn't for everyone and the swings will be greater, some players will be more prone to tilt which can make it -ev. It's all about finding what's right for you. Low stakes cash is probably more profitable than DYMs over time on Sky.
In your opening post you say that you "CRUSHED 100NL" for a month and yet your not playing it now and sticking to dyms. Obvi its a format that you are good at and 7.5k profit is not to be sniffed at but over that same period of time playing 100NL a good player would smash that figure out of sight so i was just wanting to know why your sticking with the dym format of poker and not moving to cash where your profits could go through the roof ? Are you sticking with DYMs because the variance is so much less brutal or is it down to bank roll etc, im just intrigued to know because imo the best and most profitable form of the game is cash poker so if your good at it i think you should stick at it mate. Good luck Kev Posted by Diminuendo
Great question, and I'm surprised this wasn't addressed sooner. In order to answer, I'd need to go into a fair amount of personal depth. I'd often withdrawn monthly winnings to pay for nights out, chasing girls etc. Other than that, my biggest scores/saved up profit have all gone on two extravagant purchases (Rolex and Car). The watch was something I needed to get out of my system, I saw it as an item I needed for it's extrinsic nature (or a signifier that hard work can and will be rewarded).
In hindsight, saying that I crushed 100nl is a bit of an overstatement. In December last year I beat it for 30 buyins over a three week period, 6 tabling for around 3 hours a day. I felt very comfortable against other regs, and my game was improving leaps and bounds. In a way, I was pressurised into using the capital to upgrade my car (but ultimately this was my decision). After purchasing the car and paying for insurance, I was left with £500. This year, I've had serious tilt, personal issues that impacted my game beyond ways I can't express.
Long story short, I've just finished a stake with a friend, and I'm finally back on my own money. The plan is to play DYMs up until a £1,000 roll, and then take a shot at 50nl and attempt to build from there.
I believe cash is the most profitable format, however I feel my personal winrate is higher at DYMs than 20/30nl. Hope this shines some light.
In Response to Re: Finding momentum - patwalshh [Q&A with highest earning DYM player of 2012*] : I'd say that cash is more profitable over the long term, but for me I just prefer DYMs for the time being. It pains me to say this but Priority isn't what it used to be (20% rb as opposed to the previous 28%) and no difference in % between 5k points and 10k. But in answer to your question, if you put a lot of hours in, and due to the £5s run very frequently - I'd say it's doable, but bare in mind that it'd be 4.5-5 hours a day with multi-tabling. Posted by patwalshh
Well I don't know the previous Priority thing worked as I am new here.
I have been trying playing cash recently and I have realised that if I only play the 3 happy hours during the day 6-tabling NL20 I can make roughly 100points/happy hour. Thats almost 300points/day which in 30 days makes a total of 9000points/month. If I play a bit better I can easily make priority every month by only playing 3 hours a day.
In Response to Re: Finding momentum - patwalshh [Q&A with highest earning DYM player of 2012*] : There is a huge misconception amongst players regarind expected winrate. I think we need to bare in mind that 95%+ of poker players lose money over time. I personally think Sit and Gos are the perfect way to begin poker as they encorporate so many valuable aspects. In answer to your question, a number of factors need to be taken into consideration and there will be pros and cons to both formats. Ultimately, if you're a winning player and like cash - then play cash because it's the most all round +ev format. Saying that, it isn't for everyone and the swings will be greater, some players will be more prone to tilt which can make it -ev. It's all about finding what's right for you. Low stakes cash is probably more profitable than DYMs over time on Sky. In Response to Re: Finding momentum - patwalshh [Q&A with highest earning DYM player of 2012*] : Great question, and I'm surprised this wasn't addressed sooner. In order to answer, I'd need to go into a fair amount of personal depth. I'd often withdrawn monthly winnings to pay for nights out, chasing girls etc. Other than that, my biggest scores/saved up profit have all gone on two extravagant purchases (Rolex and Car). The watch was something I needed to get out of my system, I saw it as an item I needed for it's extrinsic nature (or a signifier that hard work can and will be rewarded). In hindsight, saying that I crushed 100nl is a bit of an overstatement. In December last year I beat it for 30 buyins over a three week period, 6 tabling for around 3 hours a day. I felt very comfortable against other regs, and my game was improving leaps and bounds. In a way, I was pressurised into using the capital to upgrade my car (but ultimately this was my decision). After purchasing the car and paying for insurance, I was left with £500. This year, I've had serious tilt, personal issues that impacted my game beyond ways I can't express. Long story short, I've just finished a stake with a friend, and I'm finally back on my own money. The plan is to play DYMs up until a £1,000 roll, and then take a shot at 50nl and attempt to build from there. I believe cash is the most profitable format, however I feel my personal winrate is higher at DYMs than 20/30nl. Hope this shines some light. Posted by patwalshh
Answers my question perfectly
£3k in a month at 100nl is good going mate and that only emphasizes what i said about cash being the ultimate goal for you instead of putting in the long hours you are on DYMs for a fraction of the profits.
Also WD on your deep run in last nights main event and Good Luck for the future
In Response to Re: Finding momentum - patwalshh [Q&A with highest earning DYM player of 2012*] : Answers my question perfectly £3k in a month at 100nl is good going mate and that only emphasizes what i said about cash being the ultimate goal for you instead of putting in the long hours you are on DYMs for a fraction of the profits. Also WD on your deep run in last nights main event and Good Luck for the future Posted by Diminuendo
I'm glad it clears things up a little and thank you. Best of luck.
Hi Pat We have played 100's maybe a 1000 games against each other. What do you of my game? You don't have to be nice not got a problem with what you put on here. Posted by frascati
I genuinely can't remember your game enough to say. I perceieve your game to be fairly good though (which for me is saying a lot).
Patrick you mentioned you are going to play DYMs until you reach £1000 and then you will move to having a shot at NL50. Isn't a bit risky to play NL50 with only £1k? What are your thoughts on that? Do you think you have a big edge against the NL50 players? Posted by DimTzar
Very much so. It would definitely be a shot at 50nl. I'd structure it as, move down/back to dyms if I lost 6-8 buys and rebuild. The game's evolving very quickly, and there will inevitably be more difficult games vs this time last year. Saying that, I feel comfortable against regs, and I'd perceieve my edge to be bigger at 50nl than multi-tabling dyms.
Why we all need to experience downswings within Poker -
Poker is the ultimate test of character. It starts off as a simple excitement or passion for something new. But what that excitement and passion materialises into is up to you. We all experience highs and lows within the game. We win a couple of tournaments or big cash pots, and we're suddenly the best player on the planet. We get sucked out in a handful of momentous pots, and lo and behold we're suddenly the most unlucky player in the world.
We realise there's more to the game than we first thought, so we decide to work on improving our ability. We read some articles, post some hands, watch some tutorials. All in hope of developing a greater understanding. Sometimes it's enough to propel us forward and up a stake. Suddenly, we're beating a stake that previously seemed so out of reach. There's bumps along the way, but we hold with us a greater awareness or focus. We realise that AA will be cracked, huge chip leads will crumble and that we're at mercy to the crippling omnipotence of variance.
Nonetheless, we persist and push forward. We weather the hard times and relish the good. Ideas form and we improve. Suddenly we don't have to fast play every hand. Hero folds emerge as a viable asset within our arsenal. We're constantly improving, moving forward and outplaying our opponents. Non-showdown winnings skyrocket, and suddenly we're near impossible to get value out of.
Somewhere along the line, you face the biggest downswing of your life. Nothing will work and more importantly, nothing will help you win. You see the value in the games you're playing, players pitfalls are rampant around you, but yet something's different. All of a sudden, players always have the one hand you didn't want them to. All of a sudden, the best hand gets cracked time after time, session after session. This continues for hour after hour, day after day, week after week. Your confidence begins to crumble. Your lack of respect for a once highly respected game diminishes. You become the one person at the table you never wanted to be - the one that reeks of injustice and distain toward your fellow opponents.
I believe that downswings are wake ups, the ultimate test of character and ability. Downswings are things we all need to remind ourselves that we're not the best player we can be. Improvements can and always should be made. How many of us experience a huge upswing, but fail to look at the leaks we currently behold? That little extra value we should have gained. When downswings come back to haunt us, such factors can be the difference between a winning and losing session.
For the vast majority, it is only when we experience a big downswing, that we begin to question our game. Approaches that seemed optimal before, suddenly lose credibility. We question ourselves and our game. Yes this questioning and second guessing can be extremely negative, but it's a necessary factor in our drive for continual improvement and development. If we always won, we wouldn't necessarily be critical of our game.
There's a big difference between a good and a great poker player. A good poker player will be comfortable grinding the same stake, grinding the ever diminishing edge that they hold over the other players. A great player will thrive under pressure. Will always look to make the most +EV decisions regardless of the risk or the stakes at play. Always improve and always persist.
Why we all need to experience downswings within Poker - Poker is the ultimate test of character. It starts off as a simple excitement or passion for something new. But what that excitement and passion materialises into is up to you. We all experience highs and lows within the game. We win a couple of tournaments or big cash pots, and we're suddenly the best player on the planet. We get sucked out in a handful of momentous pots, and lo and behold we're suddenly the most unlucky player in the world. We realise there's more to the game than we first thought, so we decide to work on improving our ability. We read some articles, post some hands, watch some tutorials. All in hope of developing a greater understanding. Sometimes it's enough to propel us forward and up a stake. Suddenly, we're beating a stake that previously seemed so out of reach. There's bumps along the way, but we hold with us a greater awareness or focus. We realise that AA will be cracked, huge chip leads will crumble and that we're at mercy to the crippling omnipotence of variance. Nonetheless, we persist and push forward. We weather the hard times and relish the good. Ideas form and we improve. Suddenly we don't have to fast play every hand. Hero folds emerge as a viable asset within our arsenal. We're constantly improving, moving forward and outplaying our opponents. Non-showdown winnings skyrocket, and suddenly we're near impossible to get value out of. Somewhere along the line, you face the biggest downswing of your life. Nothing will work and more importantly, nothing will help you win. You see the value in the games you're playing, players pitfalls are rampant around you, but yet something's different. All of a sudden, players always have the one hand you didn't want them to. All of a sudden, the best hand gets cracked time after time, session after session. This continues for hour after hour, day after day, week after week. Your confidence begins to crumble. Your lack of respect for a once highly respected game diminishes. You become the one person at the table you never wanted to be - the one that reeks of injustice and distain toward your fellow opponents. I believe that downswings are wake ups, the ultimate test of character and ability. Downswings are things we all need to remind ourselves that we're not the best player we can be. Improvements can and always should be made. How many of us experience a huge upswing, but fail to look at the leaks we currently behold? That little extra value we should have gained. When downswings come back to haunt us, such factors can be the difference between a winning and losing session. For the vast majority, it is only when we experience a big downswing, that we begin to question our game. Approaches that seemed optimal before, suddenly lose credibility. We question ourselves and our game. Yes this questioning and second guessing can be extremely negative, but it's a necessary factor in our drive for continual improvement and development. If we always won, we wouldn't necessarily be critical of our game. There's a big difference between a good and a great poker player. A good poker player will be comfortable grinding the same stake, grinding the ever diminishing edge that they hold over the other players. A great player will thrive under pressure. Will always look to make the most +EV decisions regardless of the risk or the stakes at play. Always improve and always persist. Patwalshh Posted by patwalshh
Why we all need to experience downswings within Poker - Poker is the ultimate test of character. It starts off as a simple excitement or passion for something new. But what that excitement and passion materialises into is up to you. We all experience highs and lows within the game. We win a couple of tournaments or big cash pots, and we're suddenly the best player on the planet. We get sucked out in a handful of momentous pots, and lo and behold we're suddenly the most unlucky player in the world. We realise there's more to the game than we first thought, so we decide to work on improving our ability. We read some articles, post some hands, watch some tutorials. All in hope of developing a greater understanding. Sometimes it's enough to propel us forward and up a stake. Suddenly, we're beating a stake that previously seemed so out of reach. There's bumps along the way, but we hold with us a greater awareness or focus. We realise that AA will be cracked, huge chip leads will crumble and that we're at mercy to the crippling omnipotence of variance. Nonetheless, we persist and push forward. We weather the hard times and relish the good. Ideas form and we improve. Suddenly we don't have to fast play every hand. Hero folds emerge as a viable asset within our arsenal. We're constantly improving, moving forward and outplaying our opponents. Non-showdown winnings skyrocket, and suddenly we're near impossible to get value out of. Somewhere along the line, you face the biggest downswing of your life. Nothing will work and more importantly, nothing will help you win. You see the value in the games you're playing, players pitfalls are rampant around you, but yet something's different. All of a sudden, players always have the one hand you didn't want them to. All of a sudden, the best hand gets cracked time after time, session after session. This continues for hour after hour, day after day, week after week. Your confidence begins to crumble. Your lack of respect for a once highly respected game diminishes. You become the one person at the table you never wanted to be - the one that reeks of injustice and distain toward your fellow opponents. I believe that downswings are wake ups, the ultimate test of character and ability. Downswings are things we all need to remind ourselves that we're not the best player we can be. Improvements can and always should be made. How many of us experience a huge upswing, but fail to look at the leaks we currently behold? That little extra value we should have gained. When downswings come back to haunt us, such factors can be the difference between a winning and losing session. For the vast majority, it is only when we experience a big downswing, that we begin to question our game. Approaches that seemed optimal before, suddenly lose credibility. We question ourselves and our game. Yes this questioning and second guessing can be extremely negative, but it's a necessary factor in our drive for continual improvement and development. If we always won, we wouldn't necessarily be critical of our game. There's a big difference between a good and a great poker player. A good poker player will be comfortable grinding the same stake, grinding the ever diminishing edge that they hold over the other players. A great player will thrive under pressure. Will always look to make the most +EV decisions regardless of the risk or the stakes at play. Always improve and always persist. Patwalshh Posted by patwalshh
Excellent post. All your own wording or copied?
Oh...please explain downswings to TommyD & Matt Bates....they both think this is what happened when they were on the see saw in their parks when they were smaller (no offence Matt)
Appreicate the responses. All my own words apart from taking the 'success' model approach which is defined as; passion, work, focus, push, ideas, improve, service and persistance.
Curious to know what everybody's biggest downswing is, I'm on my biggest one ever at the moment, but I'm not that experienced so I know others will have had a worse time of it. I guess I'm trying to figure out what the worst case scenario is -.-
Great thread, loving the discussion! Curious to know what everybody's biggest downswing is, I'm on my biggest one ever at the moment, but I'm not that experienced so I know others will have had a worse time of it. I guess I'm trying to figure out what the worst case scenario is -.- Posted by peter27
It really depends on the game type and what your edge actually is (could in reality be + or - EV). Constant improvement and persistance is all I can advise! Best of luck.
Great thread, loving the discussion! Curious to know what everybody's biggest downswing is, I'm on my biggest one ever at the moment, but I'm not that experienced so I know others will have had a worse time of it. I guess I'm trying to figure out what the worst case scenario is -.- Posted by peter27
I've been on 80ish buy in downswings a few times. Anything is possible, but for a good winning MTT player on SKY, i would expect 100 buy in downswings not to be too uncommon. for breakeven players, it could be worse, and for losing players...well, I guess you measure the length/depth of the upswings instead.
In Response to Re: New Post - Why we all need to experience downswings within Poker [Q&A available] : I've been on 80ish buy in downswings a few times. Anything is possible, but for a good winning MTT player on SKY, i would expect 100 buy in downswings not to be too uncommon. for breakeven players, it could be worse, and for losing players...well, I guess you measure the length/depth of the upswings instead. Posted by chicknMelt
That makes me worried ... I'm trying my best to get out of the rut though :-)
Thanks, unfortunately not much (if any) profit has come from you.!!! Posted by sim_mo
Haha, nontheless I'd still rather have a table full of fish than you!
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I really don't want to turn this into a blog about variance. Will give end of month update on Thursday as I'll be away for the weekend. Amsterdam. That is all.
NO NEED, To suffer a down swing...Just withdraw your bankroll and go to another site my dad says. He enjoys telling the world poker paid off his mortgage so he may know something.
NO NEED, To suffer a down swing...Just withdraw your bankroll and go to another site my dad says. He enjoys telling the world poker paid off his mortgage so he may know something. Posted by Dani_chik
Interesting theory, but surely you'd still go through phases of bad luck - variance isn't due to the website! Then again it seems to have worked for your dad, so what do I know
Hmmm, many of you guys play on other sites apart from Sky Poker, have you experienced a downswing on one and an upswing on the other or is it usually downswings and upswings at the same time on both sites? Curious about the frequency of this?
Comments
Answers my question perfectly
£3k in a month at 100nl is good going mate and that only emphasizes what i said about cash being the ultimate goal for you instead of putting in the long hours you are on DYMs for a fraction of the profits.
Also WD on your deep run in last nights main event and Good Luck for the future
Hi Pat
We have played 100's maybe a 1000 games against each other.
What do you of my game?
You don't have to be nice not got a problem with what you put on here.
Why we all need to experience downswings within Poker -
Poker is the ultimate test of character. It starts off as a simple excitement or passion for something new. But what that excitement and passion materialises into is up to you. We all experience highs and lows within the game. We win a couple of tournaments or big cash pots, and we're suddenly the best player on the planet. We get sucked out in a handful of momentous pots, and lo and behold we're suddenly the most unlucky player in the world.
We realise there's more to the game than we first thought, so we decide to work on improving our ability. We read some articles, post some hands, watch some tutorials. All in hope of developing a greater understanding. Sometimes it's enough to propel us forward and up a stake. Suddenly, we're beating a stake that previously seemed so out of reach. There's bumps along the way, but we hold with us a greater awareness or focus. We realise that AA will be cracked, huge chip leads will crumble and that we're at mercy to the crippling omnipotence of variance.
Nonetheless, we persist and push forward. We weather the hard times and relish the good. Ideas form and we improve. Suddenly we don't have to fast play every hand. Hero folds emerge as a viable asset within our arsenal. We're constantly improving, moving forward and outplaying our opponents. Non-showdown winnings skyrocket, and suddenly we're near impossible to get value out of.
Somewhere along the line, you face the biggest downswing of your life. Nothing will work and more importantly, nothing will help you win. You see the value in the games you're playing, players pitfalls are rampant around you, but yet something's different. All of a sudden, players always have the one hand you didn't want them to. All of a sudden, the best hand gets cracked time after time, session after session. This continues for hour after hour, day after day, week after week. Your confidence begins to crumble. Your lack of respect for a once highly respected game diminishes. You become the one person at the table you never wanted to be - the one that reeks of injustice and distain toward your fellow opponents.
I believe that downswings are wake ups, the ultimate test of character and ability. Downswings are things we all need to remind ourselves that we're not the best player we can be. Improvements can and always should be made. How many of us experience a huge upswing, but fail to look at the leaks we currently behold? That little extra value we should have gained. When downswings come back to haunt us, such factors can be the difference between a winning and losing session.
For the vast majority, it is only when we experience a big downswing, that we begin to question our game. Approaches that seemed optimal before, suddenly lose credibility. We question ourselves and our game. Yes this questioning and second guessing can be extremely negative, but it's a necessary factor in our drive for continual improvement and development. If we always won, we wouldn't necessarily be critical of our game.
There's a big difference between a good and a great poker player. A good poker player will be comfortable grinding the same stake, grinding the ever diminishing edge that they hold over the other players. A great player will thrive under pressure. Will always look to make the most +EV decisions regardless of the risk or the stakes at play. Always improve and always persist.
Patwalshh
Curious to know what everybody's biggest downswing is, I'm on my biggest one ever at the moment, but I'm not that experienced so I know others will have had a worse time of it. I guess I'm trying to figure out what the worst case scenario is -.-
Secondly, I just realised how much you're up this year at SNGs on Sky! Nicely done.
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Hmmm, many of you guys play on other sites apart from Sky Poker, have you experienced a downswing on one and an upswing on the other or is it usually downswings and upswings at the same time on both sites? Curious about the frequency of this?