Might go against the grain but what about checking this flop? I know we don't really want to give away free cards, but it would disguise the strength of your hand somewhat.
I can understand why you would fold to the R/R, but feels a tad dirty to bet fold TPTK in a live cash game, at least on the flop anyway.
As played, I think I call and see what action the turn brings, though I wouldn't be happy about it. This could also lead to a levelling war with yourself!
Jac I have no opinion of you and have never met you so it's not like I don't like you !
Ok I'll expand
It was not a dig but from experience if you start folding toptop to one flop raise it normally means you feel uncomfortable in the game where you need nuts to continue. It's not going to be good for you if you have this guy on your left.
The fact that vill is good would mean they can be raising a wide range here and not just nutted. toptop is just too strong a hand to be laying down to one raise on this texture.
if you was playing nl20 on sky are you laying down this hand in this spot ?
calling flop and folding turn if you really think vill is nutted 2 pr/sets/str is not terrible btw
but... do you fold this on a KQ9 rainbow
do you fold this on a K72 rainbow
do you fold this on a KK2 two diamonds
do you fold this on a AK8 two diamonds
do you fold this on a KKK
the above is just for fun
If you essentially avoiding certain players at the table then imo it shows weakness, and I would suggest playing lower down. Or just admit to yourself that your going to play risk averse and go bum hunting on a Friday night down the local casino
This is the point I was trying to make earlier... I know it's a dirty flop to fold on but if he's betting 100% of his range on the turn then we don't really have much more info. We basically check calling turn and river hoping he's got the flush draw
Jac I have no opinion of you and have never met you so it's not like I don't like you ! Ok I'll expand It was not a dig but from experience if you start folding toptop to one flop raise it normally means you feel uncomfortable in the game where you need nuts to continue. It's not going to be good for you if you have this guy on your left. The fact that vill is good would mean they can be raising a wide range here and not just nutted. toptop is just too strong a hand to be laying down to one raise on this texture. if you was playing nl20 on sky are you laying down this hand in this spot ? calling flop and folding turn if you really think vill is nutted 2 pr/sets/str is not terrible btw but... do you fold this on a KQ9 rainbow do you fold this on a K72 rainbow do you fold this on a KK2 two diamonds do you fold this on a AK8 two diamonds do you fold this on a KKK the above is just for fun If you essentially avoiding certain players at the table then imo it shows weakness, and I would suggest playing lower down. Or just admit to yourself that your going to play risk averse and go bum hunting on a Friday night down the local casino Posted by rancid
Thanks for replying
In all honesty, I don't believe the stakes are relevant to this discussion. I'm not in the habit of folding TPTK on the flop and so that is why I posted the hand. This is one occasion when, to me it was tough, but felt like the right decision at the time. Yeah, I may not be folding this playing NL20 but that is more due to how deep we're playing rather than how much we're playing. This is 400BB deep rather than 100BB.
Your point about how I should admit to myself that i'm bumhunting is redundant. I know already that i'm doing this to some extent. I'm not ashamed of that. We all do it to a large degree. It's not just that, of course. I enjoy the social side of playing live, having a drink and hopefully making a few quid. Tell me which table you're going to sit at when you first sit down. The one with Style, Zing etc or the one which is full of bad players?
I play and make money in the casino because the standard is far weaker at 50/1 than it is online at NL20. If there is one good player at the table and he's going to make my life difficult then I don't have so much of an ego that I want to get into awkward spots against him. Obviously, not ideal when he's on my left. Believe it or not though he thinks i'm ok at the game and so is not going to bother trying to get into any levelling wars with me needlessly.
To me this does seem like an ok fold and would be liekly to make it myself in a similar situation. Given that we will be OOP for the hand and even if we get to the river with a hand by that point is effectively going to be a bluff catcher its going to cost us atleast another 150bb to get there if we think villian is good. As stated before we have little chance of improving and if a scare card comes we are going to have to check fold. If its like the standard in my local casino i think there will be far easier spots if we just let this 1 go and find a better spot.
In Response to Re: Live AK spot : Thanks for replying In all honesty, I don't believe the stakes are relevant to this discussion. I'm not in the habit of folding TPTK on the flop and so that is why I posted the hand. This is one occasion when, to me it was tough, but felt like the right decision at the time. Yeah, I may not be folding this playing NL20 but that is more due to how deep we're playing rather than how much we're playing. This is 400BB deep rather than 100BB. Your point about how I should admit to myself that i'm bumhunting is redundant. I know already that i'm doing this to some extent. I'm not ashamed of that. We all do it to a large degree. It's not just that, of course. I enjoy the social side of playing live, having a drink and hopefully making a few quid. Tell me which table you're going to sit at when you first sit down. The one with Style, Zing etc or the one which is full of bad players? I play and make money in the casino because the standard is far weaker at 50/1 than it is online at NL20. If there is one good player at the table and he's going to make my life difficult then I don't have so much of an ego that I want to get into awkward spots against him. Obviously, not ideal when he's on my left. Believe it or not though he thinks i'm ok at the game and so is not going to bother trying to get into any levelling wars with me needlessly. Posted by Jac35
Well if that's your apporach to that kinda game/spot then you probbaly better off c/c flop if your reads are correct that vill will barrell all streets he will probably bet them when checked to. Plus you don't have to bloat a pot where you ain't a massive fav 400bb deep on that texture only fwiw.
Don't let em get to you Jac, think you played it fine (except for fold face up bit)
Calling in this spot has pretty much capped our range at AK/AA
A GOOD player may very well have us crushed already and will be able to put us under a ton of pressure with pot sized bets on turn and river.
He likely has at worst a very strong draw and can barrell loads of scare cards whether or not they help him.
It's all very well saying call and reassess, but we need to have a plan for the rest of the hand. Do we want to potentially get 400bb in with one pair?
Don't let em get to you Jac, think you played it fine (except for fold face up bit) Calling in this spot has pretty much capped our range at AK/AA A GOOD player may very well have us crushed already and will be able to put us under a ton of pressure with pot sized bets on turn and river. He likely has at worst a very strong draw and can barrell loads of scare cards whether or not they help him. It's all very well saying call and reassess, but we need to have a plan for the rest of the hand. Do we want to potentially get 400bb in with one pair? Posted by simonnatur
Henrik, Idcu, rancid Obv, I was never raising and calling was the option I was close to doing. Felt pretty dirty folding What do we do on a blank turn? Posted by Jac35
I've not read the rest of the posts, but CM is right how was he playing?
How does he play his flush draws? I think reads are the most important, and gut instinct.
If he's been playing pretty snug, then it's an easy fold I would say. And if he's bluffing, good on him, we only have invested a few pound into the pot.
If he's been pretty active, i'd call and re assess on the turn. Nothing wrong with folding in the slightest imo. Reads would be everything/ gut feeling.
From what you said, there is plenty of better opportunities at the table.
Can't remember what you raised to pre, but that time I played live, and raised pretty big pre, a 3x 4 x raise usually resulted in an almost family pot!
Don't let em get to you Jac, think you played it fine (except for fold face up bit) Calling in this spot has pretty much capped our range at AK/AA A GOOD player may very well have us crushed already and will be able to put us under a ton of pressure with pot sized bets on turn and river. He likely has at worst a very strong draw and can barrell loads of scare cards whether or not they help him. It's all very well saying call and reassess, but we need to have a plan for the rest of the hand. Do we want to potentially get 400bb in with one pair? Posted by simonnatur
Thanks Simon
Think you've pretty much nailed it with that post.
Yeah, I was pretty baffled when one of the posters launched into the, game too big, bumhunting, wanting everyone to tell me how good I am, stuff
Thought it was an unusual spot where folding TPTK on the flop actually felt ok. Just wanted constructive opinions, not just, 'you played it right' posts
Folding face up was pretty daft. In my defence, I had drunk copious amounts of Estrella!
(Although that is obviously no defence at all as drinking while playing is pretty gormless)
fwiw playing AK OOP against a strong opponent when under the influence is not a good idea whether technically right or not folding is a safe move i fear i'd have done the opposite in your situation/state and i love the face up would have done bundles to reinforce the fact that you two were the sharks to be reckoned with (as the others would have been amazed how you knew the other guy had you beat - of course they don't know what he had either) Posted by GELDY
I think your message arrived during the hand Geldy
I thought "if Geldy thinks I should leave, I'm leaving" so I folded, picked up my chips and ran.
Comments
Ok I'll expand
It was not a dig but from experience if you start folding toptop to one flop raise it normally means you feel uncomfortable in the game where you need nuts to continue. It's not going to be good for you if you have this guy on your left.
The fact that vill is good would mean they can be raising a wide range here and not just nutted.
toptop is just too strong a hand to be laying down to one raise on this texture.
if you was playing nl20 on sky are you laying down this hand in this spot ?
calling flop and folding turn if you really think vill is nutted 2 pr/sets/str is not terrible btw
but...
do you fold this on a KQ9 rainbow
do you fold this on a K72 rainbow
do you fold this on a KK2 two diamonds
do you fold this on a AK8 two diamonds
do you fold this on a KKK
the above is just for fun
If you essentially avoiding certain players at the table then imo it shows weakness, and I would suggest playing lower down. Or just admit to yourself that your going to play risk averse and go bum hunting on a Friday night down the local casino
In all honesty, I don't believe the stakes are relevant to this discussion.
I'm not in the habit of folding TPTK on the flop and so that is why I posted the hand.
This is one occasion when, to me it was tough, but felt like the right decision at the time. Yeah, I may not be folding this playing NL20 but that is more due to how deep we're playing rather than how much we're playing.
This is 400BB deep rather than 100BB.
Your point about how I should admit to myself that i'm bumhunting is redundant. I know already that i'm doing this to some extent. I'm not ashamed of that. We all do it to a large degree.
It's not just that, of course. I enjoy the social side of playing live, having a drink and hopefully making a few quid.
Tell me which table you're going to sit at when you first sit down.
The one with Style, Zing etc or the one which is full of bad players?
I play and make money in the casino because the standard is far weaker at 50/1 than it is online at NL20.
If there is one good player at the table and he's going to make my life difficult then I don't have so much of an ego that I want to get into awkward spots against him. Obviously, not ideal when he's on my left. Believe it or not though
good luck
How does he play his flush draws? I think reads are the most important, and gut instinct.
If he's been playing pretty snug, then it's an easy fold I would say. And if he's bluffing, good on him, we only have invested a few pound into the pot.
If he's been pretty active, i'd call and re assess on the turn. Nothing wrong with folding in the slightest imo. Reads would be everything/ gut feeling.
From what you said, there is plenty of better opportunities at the table.
Can't remember what you raised to pre, but that time I played live, and raised pretty big pre, a 3x 4 x raise usually resulted in an almost family pot!