However, in the unlikely event that I did, I would like to think I would wait for a player. Would I actually do it though? Not sure.
I can totally understand people not waiting. I think using words such as "classless" and "without honour" is just too strong.
What's a reasonable time for you to wait for someone to return? It's all subjective. To some, it might be 1 minute, to me, it would probably be about 5 minutes. Do we never start pressing the raise button and eventually get to the time when we're both all in in the blinds?
I would be horrified if someone used those words to describe me, if in their opinion 5 minutes wasn't long enough.
I think Peter makes a good point. Not so much about size of bankroll, but someone's financial situation. If it was the difference between being able to pay your mortgage or not, it would take someone with extreme strength to not be blinding the player out. It's not actually cheating.
I had a friend who used to argue that money wasn't in the slightest bit important to him. Very easy for him to say. He was a head teacher and enjoyed 2 or 3 holidays each year and lived in a nice house.
Would we still have the same thoughts if we were playing for HUGE amounts of money? I would really admire someone who could say with absolute conviction "yes". Let's say Heads up, with £100,000 between 1st and 2nd. I have to be honest, it would be very difficult for me not to be blinding the guy out.
It's just a big shame that this kind of thing does crop up every now and then. So tough on the guy who gets disconnected.
I know it's a slightly different situation but in DYM's, as I'm sure many of you are aware, away players are treated ruthlessly I've seen 4k stacks blinded away by the other smaller stacks and I'd expect that any opponent in HU situation would act in a similar manner (9 times out of 10?!).
Hard not to admire TommyD's stance on the subject though but I'd just be lying if I said I would quite as honourable.
On another note you'd also pick up the award for best Alan Partridge impression with the line "I don't know, maybe it's because I read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy when I was eleven." ☺
I have been in this position a few times. The first time I blinding the opponent down to very little before he reconnected. I went on to win and after a few moments I didn't feel very good. The buzz you get from winning an MTT is what we all play for and I just didn't get it.
The next time it happened it did happen to be in a much bigger buyin and the difference did mean something to me. I stole the first and then stopped. I sat out and said I would wait five minutes. The guy returned a few moments later and thanked me for waiting. I felt good and we played on. As it happened ten minutes later he disconnected again. I waited a further 7 mins which took us to the break but he didn't return after that either. I obviously went on to win but at least felt better in myself.
I've been on the other end too and had both someone wait and blind me down. Being on the other end I was actually more annoyed at my internet provider than the player who blinded me down. I accepted it as something that happens but I guess the point is we shouldn't have too. It would be nice if it was one of those unsaid rules where your expected to wait, the same as if two people call someone's all in on a final table and are content to check it down.
I think Jac raises some good points. Money wise obviously it's all relative, £500 to one person is a drop in the ocean compared to their BR while to others it's by far their biggest ever cash but I don't think this should be a big consideration and £500 is still a decent sum of money in the real world whether you're a micro stakes player or TommyD (substitute with any big winner on here).
Interesting question you asked about if there's an away player on the bubble of a DYM. Obviously that's very different in the sense that there are 3 active players who would ALL need to agree to passing blinds for 5-10 mins which is unlikely and could verge on collusion if it was cerbally agreed in chat, and if ALL player's don't agree then you're getting swindled as much as the away player by folding.
BUT assuming all did agree (let's assume non-verbally, you just knew everyone was nice enough to do it and everyone was just folding) do we join in too? Is it any different because DYMs are 'ten a penny' so to speak whereas getting to a FT in an MTT with 500+ runners is not the kinda thing that happens every day or every week or for some even every month. So is it more about taking away someone's 'one time' that ay not come along often whereas the next DYM bubble is always (usually) 10 mins away or whatever.
I'd imagine if that's Tommy's opinion on it, he'd probably stick to it regardless of what's at stake, even he was HU for a winner takes all tourney, and I respect him for that, but I don't think I could do that.
For myself i think that everyone is looking at this from the wrong angle when passing comment.
I dont think the issue here is about whether or not you steal the blinds but how you would react if you were the disconnected player. The thing is to be consistent to both and not behave in a hypocritical way.
If you would be upset or think it unfair if your blinds were stolen whilst disconnected then you really shouldnt be stealing when the reverse happens.
But if you are of the opinion that if you are disconnected then your blinds are there to be stolen then i see no problem in stealing when the tables are turned.
It is all about consistency and applying the same rules to yourself as to others.
What i would do in this circumstance is between me and my conscience. But i will not stand in judgement over someones actions in a situation. Unless of course they turn out to be one who is happy to steal and whinges when stolen from. People are free to take any stance they like and unless theybehave with hypocrisy then it is fine by me.
Awful timing, a very unpleasant way to have to finish a 1,116 runner Main Event.
Connection issues are part of the variance you face when playing online poker in my eyes. Sometimes it will happen to me, sometimes it will happen to my opponents. At what stage of the game it occurs and whether my opponent chooses to steal or wait is all down to luck. It's a zero sum situation at the end of the day.
Funnily enough I don't think I've ever had to make the decision, as far as I can recall all my 152 MTT wins on Sky were settled with both players connected.
As was documented in my diary at the time I got disconnected when a big chipleader at final table in a £5.75 Bounty Hunter a while back. I watched on the rail (unable to take my seat) while the other players passed chips backward and forward for over 40 minutes until my stack eventually blinded out in 4th place. The win would have meant a lot to my BR challenge at the time. I just shrugged it off and moved on. What else can you do? No point dwelling on it.
I feel in light of Jac's post and others I should qualify a few of my statements.
The vast majority of disconnections are fixed within minutes, usually by rebooting a router. My statements regard 'acting dishonourably' were concerning two people are HU at the end of a MTT, or in a HU MTT. Suddenly one player has the red bar of doom pop up and then the other player starts mashing 'bet.' The disconnected player returns in 2-3 minutes with their stack decimated. Now I didn't rail the table Tuesday so I don't know if this player was disconnected during HU or prior to it so it is not a direct attack on the other players involved, however the instance I am referring to is the one which gets the most threads about it and is at the heart of everyone's 'what would you do?'
If it is 3 or 4 handed and a player red bars I generally tell the table 'I will be playing slow to allow XXX to return.' I'm not colluding, I'm not twisting anyone's arm, but in general on this site most other people slow down as well and then the fellow pops back.
On the question of time to give someone leave to return, HU I will always give them at least a level from the time of disconnection. I think a good rule of thumb is to give them the reasonable amount of time in which they would continue to attempt to get back on. So say in the £22 7pm BHer I'd give a level and a bit, if they don't get on in that time it pretty much means they aren't coming back. Either it's a serious issue or they think they have been blinded out already so are not bothering. If we look at the VLV Final I won, if the runner up in that had disconnected I would have given 30 minutes at least, because in that I can see a player trying everything to get back online including ringing nearby friends and asking to use their computer. People just wouldn't do that in a smaller comp. It's about judgement and using common sense to go alongside the decency.
For instance I remember a £22 BHer I played once. It was 4 paid IIRC and one fellow was disconnected from the very start of the FT. Somehow he ended up HU with me after an hour or so of FT action. Even in this instance with a 150bb:3BB lead I sat out for a couple of hands and asked Nutter (who was railing after being knocked out in 3rd in a AA v KK spot) to confirm if he was disconnected from the start and if he thought he was coming back. After confirmation of opinion I did blind the guy out because he was never going to come back and had been red barred for over an hour.
It about judging the situation as it comes up. The vast majority of cases though in HU play are people losing connection for a couple of minutes and I stand by my description of mashing the bet button in these spots as being 'dishonourable.' In fact rather than feeling that word is too strong, I don't think it's strong enough.
A few other points:
Disconnect protect is open for all sorts of abuse in Tournaments. We still have people timebanking during H4H, if the was DP in MTTs it would be carnage around the bubble, FT bubble and some of the ladders.
One last bug bear. The phrase is 'Do onto others as you would have them do onto you' not what it seems to have become 'Do onto others what they would do onto you.' Massive difference.
And no Tikay, we couldn't have babies. Nice offer though
Ohh just one more thing, on the case of a financial situation:
If you are a recreational player then this shouldn't matter, your are playing for the fun, enjoying the wins and taking the loses on the chin. Unless your financial situation is dire in which case why are you using much needed cash to play poker?
If you are a Pro and you can't give someone five minutes at the very least to get back on because this will effect your win rate and bottom line too much, please seek another profession immediately. You are clearly just not good enough at this one.
I feel in light of Jac's post and others I should qualify a few of my statements. The vast majority of disconnections are fixed within minutes, usually by rebooting a router. My statements regard 'acting dishonourably' were concerning two people are HU at the end of a MTT, or in a HU MTT. Suddenly one player has the red bar of doom pop up and then the other player starts mashing 'bet.' The disconnected player returns in 2-3 minutes with their stack decimated. Now I didn't rail the table Tuesday so I don't know if this player was disconnected during HU or prior to it so it is not a direct attack on the other players involved, however the instance I am referring to is the one which gets the most threads about it and is at the heart of everyone's 'what would you do?' If it is 3 or 4 handed and a player red bars I generally tell the table 'I will be playing slow to allow XXX to return.' I'm not colluding, I'm not twisting anyone's arm, but in general on this site most other people slow down as well and then the fellow pops back. On the question of time to give someone leave to return, HU I will always give them at least a level from the time of disconnection. I think a good rule of thumb is to give them the reasonable amount of time in which they would continue to attempt to get back on. So say in the £22 7pm BHer I'd give a level and a bit, if they don't get on in that time it pretty much means they aren't coming back. Either it's a serious issue or they think they have been blinded out already so are not bothering. If we look at the VLV Final I won, if the runner up in that had disconnected I would have given 30 minutes at least, because in that I can see a player trying everything to get back online including ringing nearby friends and asking to use their computer. People just wouldn't do that in a smaller comp. It's about judgement and using common sense to go alongside the decency. For instance I remember a £22 BHer I played once. It was 4 paid IIRC and one fellow was disconnected from the very start of the FT. Somehow he ended up HU with me after an hour or so of FT action. Even in this instance with a 150bb:3BB lead I sat out for a couple of hands and asked Nutter (who was railing after being knocked out in 3rd in a AA v KK spot) to confirm if he was disconnected from the start and if he thought he was coming back. After confirmation of opinion I did blind the guy out because he was never going to come back and had been red barred for over an hour. It about judging the situation as it comes up. The vast majority of cases though in HU play are people losing connection for a couple of minutes and I stand by my description of mashing the bet button in these spots as being 'dishonourable.' In fact rather than feeling that word is too strong, I don't think it's strong enough. A few other points: Disconnect protect is open for all sorts of abuse in Tournaments. We still have people timebanking during H4H, if the was DP in MTTs it would be carnage around the bubble, FT bubble and some of the ladders. One last bug bear. The phrase is 'Do onto others as you would have them do onto you' not what it seems to have become 'Do onto others what they would do onto you.' Massive difference. And no Tikay, we couldn't have babies. Nice offer though Posted by TommyD
You can't really argue against Tommy
Talk to someone how you would like them to talk to you, same same............
I think in the world of cut throat poker where your constantly at battle with other people at the tables. It's only natural for people to act this way when it comes to people being disconnected cause poker is destory the weak. Eat the fish or be eaten. So you can see why this spills over to spots where people have disconnected and they feel like hahaha tough, I win hahahahaha.
spot 1.....
Walking down the road to a football match, loads of people around and this guy in front of you drops his wallet and doesn't notice. You quickly pick it up, but do you.........
a. give it back b. slide it into your pocket
spot 2....
You walk into a shop and buy 20 cigs, you hand over a tenner. The poor young lady gives you change for a fifty, do you...
a. say o you gave me too much money b. pocket it, say nothing and walk very fast out of shop
life is full of spots like this..........
spot 3
Your playing HU with Matt Bates at the end of a MTT and it's winner takes all - £12,000. Matt Bates has only got Tiscala broadband so he obviously disconnects and you have 4-1 chip lead do you.....
a. think o it's Matt what a wally, lets smash the bet button b o it's Matt he wins enough, smash the bet button c. o it's Matt, I think he is a lucky so so - so hahahaha for being unlucky and smash the bet button d. o good it's Matt, my BR is £400 and I need this more than him - smash bet button e. it's Matt, lets wait for that smashing fellow to re connect cause he would do the same
In Response to Re: A sick conclusion to Tuesdays main! : You can't really argue against Tommy Talk to someone how you would like them to talk to you, same same............ I think in the world of cut throat poker where your constantly at battle with other people at the tables. It's only natural for people to act this way when it comes to people being disconnected cause poker is destory the weak. Eat the fish or be eaten. So you can see why this spills over to spots where people have disconnected and they feel like hahaha tough, I win hahahahaha. spot 1..... Walking down the road to a football match, loads of people around and this guy in front of you drops his wallet and doesn't notice. You quickly pick it up, but do you......... a. give it back b. slide it into your pocket spot 2.... You walk into a shop and buy 20 cigs, you hand over a tenner. The poor young lady gives you change for a fifty, do you... a. say o you gave me too much money b. pocket it, say nothing and walk very fast out of shop life is full of spots like this.......... spot 3 Your playing HU with Matt Bates at the end of a MTT and it's winner takes all - £12,000. Matt Bates has only got Tiscala broadband so he obviously disconnects and you have 4-1 chip lead do you..... a. think o it's Matt what a wally, lets smash the bet button b o it's Matt he wins enough, smash the bet button c. o it's Matt, I think he is a lucky so so - so hahahaha for being unlucky and smash the bet button d. o good it's Matt, my BR is £400 and I need this more than him - smash bet button e. it's Matt, lets wait for that smashing fellow to re connect cause he would do the same Posted by rancid
#confused
you start your post with a very clear statement as to the dog eat dog nature of online poker
but then your spots seem ridiculous #1 and #2 are just theft #3 is Matt Bates. conveniently just as his tiscali connection fails a sky broadband salesman arrives with a live demo.
We really should all take the high road, as Tommy has detailed. That's one of the things that separates us from the animals of this world.
Unfortunately, the majority of the population is greedy. We say we're not - we genuinely believe we're not - but throw us in that situation and it can be frightening how the lure of the green changes (otherwise) decent people, with a (usually) high moral code.
Good words, Tommy. Maybe one day the world will spin that way.
“Morality is neither rational nor absolute nor natural. World has known many moral systems, each of which advances claims universality; all moral systems are therefore particular, serving a specific purpose for their propagators or creators, and enforcing a certain regime that disciplines human beings for social life by narrowing our perspectives and limiting our horizons.”
I agree whole-heartedly with what Tommy has said but if I was in that situation and I did not know the player well, then I would also be bashing at the bet button. Why? Because just like in poker, we adjust to situations and in the world that we live in 9/10 people would be smashing **** out of that bet button to get that extra money, so therefore I would do the same.
Regarding Rancids examples, so far this year I have witnessed a girl drop her iPhone5 in a club without realising and go over to her and hand it back to her. Also, whilst on holiday in Turkey earlier this year a shop keeper gave me too much change (only equivilent of something like £5) but I did not realise this until I got back to the apartment, so the next day I went back to give the money back. He spoke little english and could not understand why I was giving him this money, someone who could speak english explained and he was so happy.
I like to consider myself a man of good morales however, in this situation, they're not going to wait for me to re-connect so therefore neither am I.
In Response to Re: A sick conclusion to Tuesdays main!: “Morality is neither rational nor absolute nor natural. World has known many moral systems, each of which advances claims universality; all moral systems are therefore particular, serving a specific purpose for their propagators or creators, and enforcing a certain regime that disciplines human beings for social life by narrowing our perspectives and limiting our horizons.” Friedrich Nietzsche Posted by Wilhelm
In Response to Re: A sick conclusion to Tuesdays main! : If he were still around he might, but it should be noted he died from syphilis. Posted by Wilhelm
Comments
Nice post Tommy totally agree with your stance on this
(just wish I could get heads up now and then lol)
I agree with Jac - 5 minutes then I'd go for it.
I know it's a slightly different situation but in DYM's, as I'm sure many of you are aware, away players are treated ruthlessly I've seen 4k stacks blinded away by the other smaller stacks and I'd expect that any opponent in HU situation would act in a similar manner (9 times out of 10?!).
Hard not to admire TommyD's stance on the subject though but I'd just be lying if I said I would quite as honourable.
On another note you'd also pick up the award for best Alan Partridge impression with the line "I don't know, maybe it's because I read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy when I was eleven." ☺
I think they are both equally rewarding
But you can't spend Kudos down the pub
If anyone ever finds a pub that accepts Kudos then drinks are on Tommy
BUT assuming all did agree (let's assume non-verbally, you just knew everyone was nice enough to do it and everyone was just folding) do we join in too? Is it any different because DYMs are 'ten a penny' so to speak whereas getting to a FT in an MTT with 500+ runners is not the kinda thing that happens every day or every week or for some even every month. So is it more about taking away someone's 'one time' that ay not come along often whereas the next DYM bubble is always (usually) 10 mins away or whatever.
For myself i think that everyone is looking at this from the wrong angle when passing comment.
I dont think the issue here is about whether or not you steal the blinds but how you would react if you were the disconnected player. The thing is to be consistent to both and not behave in a hypocritical way.
If you would be upset or think it unfair if your blinds were stolen whilst disconnected then you really shouldnt be stealing when the reverse happens.
But if you are of the opinion that if you are disconnected then your blinds are there to be stolen then i see no problem in stealing when the tables are turned.
It is all about consistency and applying the same rules to yourself as to others.
What i would do in this circumstance is between me and my conscience.
But i will not stand in judgement over someones actions in a situation. Unless of course they turn out to be one who is happy to steal and whinges when stolen from. People are free to take any stance they like and unless theybehave with hypocrisy then it is fine by me.
Awful timing, a very unpleasant way to have to finish a 1,116 runner Main Event.
Connection issues are part of the variance you face when playing online poker in my eyes. Sometimes it will happen to me, sometimes it will happen to my opponents. At what stage of the game it occurs and whether my opponent chooses to steal or wait is all down to luck. It's a zero sum situation at the end of the day.
Funnily enough I don't think I've ever had to make the decision, as far as I can recall all my 152 MTT wins on Sky were settled with both players connected.
As was documented in my diary at the time I got disconnected when a big chipleader at final table in a £5.75 Bounty Hunter a while back. I watched on the rail (unable to take my seat) while the other players passed chips backward and forward for over 40 minutes until my stack eventually blinded out in 4th place. The win would have meant a lot to my BR challenge at the time. I just shrugged it off and moved on. What else can you do? No point dwelling on it.
The vast majority of disconnections are fixed within minutes, usually by rebooting a router. My statements regard 'acting dishonourably' were concerning two people are HU at the end of a MTT, or in a HU MTT. Suddenly one player has the red bar of doom pop up and then the other player starts mashing 'bet.' The disconnected player returns in 2-3 minutes with their stack decimated. Now I didn't rail the table Tuesday so I don't know if this player was disconnected during HU or prior to it so it is not a direct attack on the other players involved, however the instance I am referring to is the one which gets the most threads about it and is at the heart of everyone's 'what would you do?'
If it is 3 or 4 handed and a player red bars I generally tell the table 'I will be playing slow to allow XXX to return.' I'm not colluding, I'm not twisting anyone's arm, but in general on this site most other people slow down as well and then the fellow pops back.
On the question of time to give someone leave to return, HU I will always give them at least a level from the time of disconnection. I think a good rule of thumb is to give them the reasonable amount of time in which they would continue to attempt to get back on. So say in the £22 7pm BHer I'd give a level and a bit, if they don't get on in that time it pretty much means they aren't coming back. Either it's a serious issue or they think they have been blinded out already so are not bothering. If we look at the VLV Final I won, if the runner up in that had disconnected I would have given 30 minutes at least, because in that I can see a player trying everything to get back online including ringing nearby friends and asking to use their computer. People just wouldn't do that in a smaller comp. It's about judgement and using common sense to go alongside the decency.
For instance I remember a £22 BHer I played once. It was 4 paid IIRC and one fellow was disconnected from the very start of the FT. Somehow he ended up HU with me after an hour or so of FT action. Even in this instance with a 150bb:3BB lead I sat out for a couple of hands and asked Nutter (who was railing after being knocked out in 3rd in a AA v KK spot) to confirm if he was disconnected from the start and if he thought he was coming back. After confirmation of opinion I did blind the guy out because he was never going to come back and had been red barred for over an hour.
It about judging the situation as it comes up. The vast majority of cases though in HU play are people losing connection for a couple of minutes and I stand by my description of mashing the bet button in these spots as being 'dishonourable.' In fact rather than feeling that word is too strong, I don't think it's strong enough.
A few other points:
Disconnect protect is open for all sorts of abuse in Tournaments. We still have people timebanking during H4H, if the was DP in MTTs it would be carnage around the bubble, FT bubble and some of the ladders.
One last bug bear. The phrase is 'Do onto others as you would have them do onto you' not what it seems to have become 'Do onto others what they would do onto you.' Massive difference.
And no Tikay, we couldn't have babies. Nice offer though
If you are a recreational player then this shouldn't matter, your are playing for the fun, enjoying the wins and taking the loses on the chin. Unless your financial situation is dire in which case why are you using much needed cash to play poker?
If you are a Pro and you can't give someone five minutes at the very least to get back on because this will effect your win rate and bottom line too much, please seek another profession immediately. You are clearly just not good enough at this one.
Talk to someone how you would like them to talk to you, same same............
I think in the world of cut throat poker where your constantly at battle with other people at the tables.
It's only natural for people to act this way when it comes to people being disconnected cause poker is destory the weak.
Eat the fish or be eaten.
So you can see why this spills over to spots where people have disconnected and they feel like hahaha tough, I win hahahahaha.
spot 1.....
Walking down the road to a football match, loads of people around and this guy in front of you drops his wallet and doesn't notice. You quickly pick it up, but do you.........
a. give it back
b. slide it into your pocket
spot 2....
You walk into a shop and buy 20 cigs, you hand over a tenner.
The poor young lady gives you change for a fifty, do you...
a. say o you gave me too much money
b. pocket it, say nothing and walk very fast out of shop
life is full of spots like this..........
spot 3
Your playing HU with Matt Bates at the end of a MTT and it's winner takes all - £12,000.
Matt Bates has only got Tiscala broadband so he obviously disconnects and you have 4-1 chip lead do you.....
a. think o it's Matt what a wally, lets smash the bet button
b o it's Matt he wins enough, smash the bet button
c. o it's Matt, I think he is a lucky so so - so hahahaha for being unlucky and smash the bet button
d. o good it's Matt, my BR is £400 and I need this more than him - smash bet button
e. it's Matt, lets wait for that smashing fellow to re connect cause he would do the same
you start your post with a very clear statement as to the dog eat dog nature of online poker
but then your spots seem ridiculous
#1 and #2 are just theft
#3 is Matt Bates. conveniently just as his tiscali connection fails a sky broadband salesman arrives with a live demo.
Unfortunately, the majority of the population is greedy. We say we're not - we genuinely believe we're not - but throw us in that situation and it can be frightening how the lure of the green changes (otherwise) decent people, with a (usually) high moral code.
Good words, Tommy. Maybe one day the world will spin that way.
“Morality is neither rational nor absolute nor natural. World has known many moral systems, each of which advances claims universality; all moral systems are therefore particular, serving a specific purpose for their propagators or creators, and enforcing a certain regime that disciplines human beings for social life by narrowing our perspectives and limiting our horizons.”
Friedrich Nietzsche
Regarding Rancids examples, so far this year I have witnessed a girl drop her iPhone5 in a club without realising and go over to her and hand it back to her. Also, whilst on holiday in Turkey earlier this year a shop keeper gave me too much change (only equivilent of something like £5) but I did not realise this until I got back to the apartment, so the next day I went back to give the money back. He spoke little english and could not understand why I was giving him this money, someone who could speak english explained and he was so happy.
I like to consider myself a man of good morales however, in this situation, they're not going to wait for me to re-connect so therefore neither am I.
“Morality is neither rational nor absolute nor natural. World has known many moral systems, each of which advances claims universality; all moral systems are therefore particular, serving a specific purpose for their propagators or creators, and enforcing a certain regime that disciplines human beings for social life by narrowing our perspectives and limiting our horizons.” Friedrich Nietzsche
Posted by Wilhelm
"God is dead" says Nietzsche, followed a while later by
"Nietzsche is dead" says God