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Best course of action?

hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
edited February 2014 in The Poker Clinic
1267 Small blind  200.00 200.00 10820.00
SenorBegs Big blind  400.00 600.00 12745.00
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
     
hhyftrftdr Raise  800.00 1400.00 22157.50
Raise  2400.00 3800.00 30505.50
hhamza162 Fold     
EBBERDON Fold     
1267 Fold     
SenorBegs Fold    
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hand from the Roller last night. Villain arrived at the table with that large stack, had been here a while but not played many hands, and yet to tangle or 3bet me, and I was opening a lot of pots esp on the button and vs his BB. No real history with him as don't recall ever really sharing a table, but he has been on the site for a few years now I believe. How to proceed.....

A) Fold.
B) Call.
C) 4bet get it in.
D) 4bet fold.
E) give up poker.

Note the super soft table, God I love the Roller ;)
«1

Comments

  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,611
    edited January 2014
    Well it ain't A, and I don't really like C at this stage either. I lean towards a call. A 4 bet would be what - around 7.5k? You're then left with 15k behind. If the flop comes king or ace high - assuming he calls - what do you do then?

    I'd call, see what he does on the flop and proceed carefully, as he has more chips than you.

    Having said that, E is looking likely for you ;)
  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited January 2014
    I'm always nervous with QQ, but I have bad history with them. Just one of my hands that seems to give me grief, but that said I'll try.

    For me your options are B, C or D. If I did B it's down to the fact wee have postion and can float his Cbet and see if he wants to fire again at turn. So in effect likely cost us about the same as 4bet preflop. I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of 4bet and get it in if he shoves etc. As with no idea of his 3bet range against a button raise I'd be concerned he is one of those that only 3bets with a 6% or so range. This might be cloloured by my view of the amount of times I've got it in and seen KK or AA over somthing I'm good against like JJ or AK etc.

    So if I had to pick I might go for thin 4bet and fold or the call and float his Cbet. I have a feeling better MTT players will say you should be prepared to get it all in with QQ, but I just hate the hand lately. I think option E is the one I should take. lol
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited January 2014
    Thanks for your thoughts Kam, but this is UTG and UTG+1, so shall be playing any pot out of position. Just to clarify :)
  • 77Chris9177Chris91 Member Posts: 375
    edited January 2014
    4-bet Gii ... If you think D is an option that go for E :) 
  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited January 2014
    In Response to Re: Best course of action?:
    Thanks for your thoughts Kam, but this is UTG and UTG+1, so shall be playing any pot out of position. Just to clarify :)
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Bah, not sure how the **** I misread that. Mix up with previous post on another thread maybe. That changes my view then. I doubt his hand is anything other than fairly strong to 3bet an UTG raise. Also, don't think call is a good option either given position. Yeah you can reverse float or donk lead, but blahhhh to those really.

    So really it's 4bet and fold or 4bet and get it in with him if he shoves etc. I really hate 4bet fold, as it's weak generally, but I've seen it done even by top players if they really believe they are up against better, but thats hard to sure of. If we look at it on the maths then realy it should be 4bet and get it in. Even if he is mega tight with 3bet at 5% of his starting hands we are just shy of 50-50 against that range. So yeah I guess it's 4bet and in is right, even if I hate QQ. :)
  • Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited January 2014
    I know what you mean. Hate folding QQ pf and hate calling a 5bet ai with it even more.

    Question is if you 4bet and they put you all-in how many more hands are you keeping in this way (that you can beat) compared to just shoving all-in and hoping for the fold or a call from AK?

    Options for me are shove now, or 4bet with a view to calling if shoved on. Think it's too late in tourney to be 4bet folding.
  • mugsy78mugsy78 Member Posts: 97
    edited January 2014
    4-bet folding would be ridiculously bad, not only very very bad but quit poker bad.

    I would be inclined to get it in here. The problem with flatting is the hand much more difficult to play OOP, and we can get bluffed of our hand easily if over cards fall.
    To call here you're calling because you think you are in front, as we don't have the odds to set mine.
    So if you think you're in front then why not get it in here? I mean if you're getting it in on raggy flops than why not get it in pre? Also getting it in takes away villains postional advantage away.Calling would be an option if we was IP.

    Folding here is just too passive i think. To fold here you really need to know that villains 3-betting range is very linear. If you think you can carry on tacking pots down uncontested pre/post flop if you fold then that kinda makes sense i guess.

    You said you was opening lots, so villains 3-bet range surley must be wider than AA/KK.

    Its a tricky spot but i think that reshoving takes away further tricky decisions in the hand.

    I get the feeling you did walk into an over pair though, as you posted the HH.
  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,611
    edited January 2014
    In Response to Re: Best course of action?:
    4-bet folding would be ridiculously bad, not only very very bad but quit poker bad. I would be inclined to get it in here. The problem with flatting is the hand much more difficult to play OOP, and we can get bluffed of our hand easily if over cards fall. To call here you're calling because you think you are in front, as we don't have the odds to set mine. So if you think you're in front then why not get it in here? I mean if you're getting it in on raggy flops than why not get it in pre? Also getting it in takes away villains postional advantage away.Calling would be an option if we was IP. Folding here is just too passive i think. To fold here you really need to know that villains 3-betting range is very linear. You said you was opening lots, so villains 3-bet range surley must be wider than AA/KK. Its a tricky spot but i think that reshoving takes away further tricky decisions in the hand.
    Posted by mugsy78
    #lol
  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited January 2014
    Without knowing everyone's stacks at the table it is difficult to say. If you are both the small stacks then a shove is called for (obv not the case here). If you are #1 and #2 stacks then more caution is needed. If another stack is crippled and you are about to ladder up, then again caution may be best.

    Important to note that 62% of the time no overcards will hit the flop. Absent any other information, I would call and get it in on any flop without A or K. If that means getting bluffed out by JJ when A or K flops, then so be it.


  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited January 2014
    To shed more light....Can't find HH so going off memory here....ave stack was about 16k. Still over half the field left in so although its 200/400 we're not that deep into the tournament. Ebberdon was over the 30k mark, think Mr Hamza was similar to me, poss a couple k more.
  • HYPETINGHYPETING Member Posts: 253
    edited January 2014
    No need to GII so deep.

    Peel pre and take it from there.
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited January 2014
    In Response to Re: Best course of action?:
    No need to GII so deep. Peel pre and take it from there.
    Posted by HYPETING
    +1

    Can't fold imo and can't get it in pre or 4b/fold
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited January 2014
    In Response to Re: Best course of action?:
    Well it ain't A, and I don't really like C at this stage either. I lean towards a call. A 4 bet would be what - around 7.5k? You're then left with 15k behind. If the flop comes king or ace high - assuming he calls - what do you do then? I'd call, see what he does on the flop and proceed carefully, as he has more chips than you. Having said that, E is looking likely for you ;)
    Posted by Slipwater
    Don't 4-bet to 7.5k. That would be huge.
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited January 2014

    Wouldn't like getting 55BB in pre-flop against someone who hasn't 3-bet us before, having been at the table for a while. 4-bet-folding would also seem crazy because we'd be doing it hoping that the villain flats an UTG 4-bet with a wide range. Who does that?

    The positions strengthen villain's range considerably. We'd need a crazy read to put villain on solely AA or KK and we don't have it. Even if we did have that read it becomes a spot to set-mine, not fold. We're getting really good implied odds if villain is a super-nit.

    So flat, give him a relatively tight range and do what seems right post-flop.

  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,611
    edited January 2014
    In Response to Re: Best course of action?:
    In Response to Re: Best course of action? : Don't 4-bet to 7.5k. That would be huge.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Yeah, that should've been about 5.5k.
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited January 2014
    Couple of points in the thread need addressing.

    Our combined odds to set mine are about 15:1, so if we were to think villain is very tight, we're definitely getting good odds to do so. As I say, that requires a very good read.

    As it is we can flat to allow the villain to bet on good flops for us. Don't worry about folding on Ace-high boards. Sometimes we fold the best hand. If it's the right decision against the villain's range, then it's the right decision... even if villain shows his 5-high bluff.

    Getting it in pre-flop to avoid tough decisions post-flop is not good thinking. We have to trust that we'll make more good decisions post-flop than bad ones. If not, we need to accept that we must do more to improve our game. If we're getting it in pre-flop it has to be because the villain is going to get it in with a range that our QQ are ahead of. That's the way our thinking needs to go.

    If we're going to 4-bet, we should probably go to between 5-5.5k. That leverages our stack against the villain without actually putting it all-in. That allows us to have a 4-bet bluffing range when it's appropriate. We need a 4-bet bluffing range if we're ever going to get QQ all-in pre-flop profitably.

    Obviously there's no real history with this villain to make us believe we'll be given credit for a 4-bet bluffing range, which is why we shouldn't be 4-betting here. Villain will likely give us a range for 4-betting of AK and QQ+. Meaning his range for 5-betting should have us in big trouble.


    If we're calling pre-flop, as I think we should, then it can't just be with the idea of getting it in on any non-Ace or King high flop. We need to maintain an idea of villain's range post flop. If the board comes 24J and we check-call the flop, we're basically only repping an overpair. If villain still wants to get it in on a dry turn card, we have to ask ourselves what that means for his range. Generally it means we're in big trouble. Again, we occasionally fold the best hand in this spot but, against the range of likely hands, it would be a good fold.
  • K8LOUK8LOU Member Posts: 630
    edited January 2014
    In Response to Best course of action?:
    1267 Small blind   200.00 200.00 10820.00 SenorBegs Big blind   400.00 600.00 12745.00   Your hole cards Q Q       hhyftrftdr Raise   800.00 1400.00 22157.50 X  Raise   2400.00 3800.00 30505.50 hhamza162 Fold         EBBERDON Fold         1267 Fold         SenorBegs Fold       ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hand from the Roller last night. Villain arrived at the table with that large stack, had been here a while but not played many hands, and yet to tangle or 3bet me, and I was opening a lot of pots esp on the button and vs his BB. No real history with him as don't recall ever really sharing a table, but he has been on the site for a few years now I believe. How to proceed..... A) Fold. B) Call. C) 4bet get it in. D) 4bet fold. E) give up poker. Note the super soft table, God I love the Roller ;)
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    It has to be 4betgii for me, I understand you are both really deep but do you really want to be playing this hand oop ? I dont think 4 bet folding is an option either, is he really that tight you could put him on kk aa ?? I would be happy putting my tourney life on the line here, if you double you are in a great position to make a run at it !!
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited January 2014
    Thanks for all the input guys. HH is long gone, but I 4bet to around 6k total, he dwells for a couple of seconds then moves all in....

    Now what?


  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited January 2014
    You should fold now but that's why you shouldnt 4bet... When he shoves, at best we're looking at AK and QQ+ imo and that's optimistic
  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,611
    edited January 2014
    In Response to Re: Best course of action?:
    You should fold now but that's why you shouldnt 4bet... When he shoves, at best we're looking at AK and QQ+ imo and that's optimistic
    Posted by Lambert180
    Yeah, very difficult to put him on JJ with a five-bet shove. And he isn't doing that with AQ either (in all likelihood).
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