As played you have to call. Against AA/KK we still have 20% equity. Effectively by folding were saying villain never has AK/JJ (more combos than AA/KK). Readless you can't possibly make that assumption.
standard to just call here and play poker, spr allows us to do this profitably vs a lot of villains, calling most flops, can get a bit tricky on the turn and riv as we are oop..
4 bet folding gives me a head ache as it does not make any sense, so if we 4 bet fold we want calls right? Why? we build a big pot low spr, oop vs a bigger stack than us ;S, not clever..., and we are essentially turning our hand into a bluff, no logic imo, 4bet get it in is better option for me we can expect plenty of aks there
folding is again bad, at this point villain can have jj+ ak some bluffs, it is a strong spot to 3 bet though with players left to act and that we are utg, still folding is a nono at this point..
facing shove after we 4 bet, im not liking it but there is no way I am folding besides we can suckout and get abuse in chat, allways fun
Thanks for all the input guys. HH is long gone, but I 4bet to around 6k total, he dwells for a couple of seconds then moves all in.... Now what? Posted by hhyftrftdr
Difficult spot then. Think if you 4bet folding is not a good option. Yes it is an option but I hate to 4bet and fold, it's generally a weakness. I guess it beats going out if you are certain you are beat. His dewell means little most times, or at least it couldmean one of two things and you never know if it's him thinking about if he likes his hand still or if he is just trying to give that impression.
In answer, if I've 4bret I think I probably call, though I'm kind of expecting bad news. Said before though, QQ is one of my bogey hands, and maybe it's down to me playing it badly myself. lol
because you are UTG, and he seems quite tight and is UTG +1, I'm flatting the 3bet all day long.
4betting just folds out most the hands we dominate... and QQ isn't strong enough to do it for value considering his calling range would be QQ+ AK...
Like Borin said, 4betting just so we dont have difficult decisions postflop is just such a wimpy way out. Unless its most profitable, its not the correct decision, and I think flatting would be more profitable than getting it in assuming we are good postflop. if you recognise you arent good postflop then an argument can be made for 4betting.
about your decision after the 4bet: Exactly why we dont want to 4bet. we know we are probably racing or crushed but still feel like we have to call... horrible spot. saying that though, if the player is tight i think its a fold.
think about this: by 4betting pre, it has cost you an extra 3.6k... and you arent even at the flop yet, and the villain has a very stong range if called or 5bet
if we flat pre, and check/ call almost any flop, its only going to cost us 2.4k ish extra, we are at the turn vs a slightly weaker range...
. ...if you recognise you arent good postflop then an argument can be made for 4betting... Posted by chicknMelt
I'd have to disagree with this. If we think we're not good at post-flop play - not good at poker, in other words - the solution isn't to avoid those situations. The solution is to expose ourselves to those situations in order to improve.
Poker does cost money to learn. Accepting that we're not very good is the same as accepting that we're losing players. That's essential in learning to become a winning player. Otherwise we just post hands in BBV because we avoid tough decisions and then can't figure out why we lose money only playing AA, KK and QQ, telegraphing our range all the time.
In Response to Re: Best course of action? : I'd have to disagree with this. If we think we're not good at post-flop play - not good at poker, in other words - the solution isn't to avoid those situations. The solution is to expose ourselves to those situations in order to improve. Poker does cost money to learn. Accepting that we're not very good is the same as accepting that we're losing players. That's essential in learning to become a winning player. Otherwise we just post hands in BBV because we avoid tough decisions and then can't figure out why we lose money only playing AA, KK and QQ, telegraphing our range all the time. Posted by BorinLoner
Good point. I did say you could argue... Not you should.
Suppose I should let the cat out the bag. Yep, I 4bet folded the ladies. I guess its time for me to give up the game
As soon as I 4bet I immediately realised it was the wrong decision, and I put myself in a ridiculous spot when he shipped on me. Vs other people in other situations I'd snap them off, but not this time. He's never 5bet shipping JJ (I think), QQ obvs very unlikely, so left AKs and AA/KK, which was the reason for the fold.
What was your 4-bet size? The main problem with 4-bet-folding something like QQ is you will very rarely (especially in a tournament) have the incorrect price to call, even vs a tight range. If you think his range is just AKs, AA & KK then folding is correct unless your 4-bet size was ridiculously big. But it's hard to put an unknown on that tight a range. If you've been quite active its hard to exclude all AK combos and against a range of AK, AA & KK (not even including the other 4th QQ combo) we have 39.86% meaning you are getting the correct price to call it off. (although ICM might mean you want to fold, depending on how good a price you are getting?)
If we add in JJ then folding just becomes a disaster.
Suppose I should let the cat out the bag. Yep, I 4bet folded the ladies. I guess its time for me to give up the game As soon as I 4bet I immediately realised it was the wrong decision, and I put myself in a ridiculous spot when he shipped on me. Vs other people in other situations I'd snap them off, but not this time. He's never 5bet shipping JJ (I think), QQ obvs very unlikely, so left AKs and AA/KK, which was the reason for the fold. Thanks for all the input guys. And Brian. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Having read a few more posts I've noticed a few people advocating folding to the 3bet. I mean are they serious? We have the 3rd best starting hand in the game. Are we assuming that every 3bet is done with AA or KK? I mean reallly? Fine if you have evidence they are nitty then you can limit their range, but otherwiseI think thats pretty dismal.
It comes down to why you do something. If you call, what are you planning to do on the flop? Are you looking for a ser? Cus that sucks as a plan, and so if not are you planning to call a Cbet if board is lower than a queen? If you are then really a thin 4bet and fold will be cheaper at times OOP than call and cbet call etc. And then still face a possible turn shove.
I'm not advocating any of them, as other than fold, call or raise is going to cost you some chips, but when you consider that against a nitty 5% range we hold 60% equity I think fold is pretty poor option. But I guess each to their own. It is not an easy hand to play OOP and one of my bogey hands (I just lost with QQvs1010 on a run it twice board where he hit a set twice to win both hands) that I seem to lose to often with in dumb ways. But hey my example shows not everyone shoves with AA or KK only. Not everyone is nitty or wise.
Having read a few more posts I've noticed a few people advocating folding to the 3bet. I mean are they serious? We have the 3rd best starting hand in the game. Are we assuming that every 3bet is done with AA or KK? I mean reallly? Fine if you have evidence they are nitty then you can limit their range, but otherwiseI think thats pretty dismal. It comes down to why you do something. If you call, what are you planning to do on the flop? Are you looking for a ser? Cus that sucks as a plan, and so if not are you planning to call a Cbet if board is lower than a queen? If you are then really a thin 4bet and fold will be cheaper at times OOP than call and cbet call etc. And then still face a possible turn shove. I'm not advocating any of them, as other than fold, call or raise is going to cost you some chips, but when you consider that against a nitty 5% range we hold 60% equity I think fold is pretty poor option. But I guess each to their own. It is not an easy hand to play OOP and one of my bogey hands (I just lost with QQvs1010 on a run it twice board where he hit a set twice to win both hands) that I seem to lose to often with in dumb ways. But hey my example shows not everyone shoves with AA or KK only. Not everyone is nitty or wise. Posted by KAM99
Who has said fold to the 3bet?
From what I've seen, everyone seems to be split between flatting the 3bet or 4bet with the intention of getting it in pre.
Comments
Can't remember who the guy was, but honestly think options b c d and definately e are fine
If im 4-bet folding (which i would be pretty often v some players). Probs 4 betting abit smaller .
The mystery of how to play this hand best may never be solved.
4 bet folding gives me a head ache as it does not make any sense, so if we 4 bet fold we want calls right? Why? we build a big pot low spr, oop vs a bigger stack than us ;S, not clever..., and we are essentially turning our hand into a bluff, no logic imo, 4bet get it in is better option for me we can expect plenty of aks there
folding is again bad, at this point villain can have jj+ ak some bluffs, it is a strong spot to 3 bet though with players left to act and that we are utg, still folding is a nono at this point..
facing shove after we 4 bet, im not liking it but there is no way I am folding besides we can suckout and get abuse in chat, allways fun
In answer, if I've 4bret I think I probably call, though I'm kind of expecting bad news. Said before though, QQ is one of my bogey hands, and maybe it's down to me playing it badly myself. lol
Poker does cost money to learn. Accepting that we're not very good is the same as accepting that we're losing players. That's essential in learning to become a winning player. Otherwise we just post hands in BBV because we avoid tough decisions and then can't figure out why we lose money only playing AA, KK and QQ, telegraphing our range all the time.
As soon as I 4bet I immediately realised it was the wrong decision, and I put myself in a ridiculous spot when he shipped on me. Vs other people in other situations I'd snap them off, but not this time. He's never 5bet shipping JJ (I think), QQ obvs very unlikely, so left AKs and AA/KK, which was the reason for the fold.
Thanks for all the input guys. And Brian.
It comes down to why you do something. If you call, what are you planning to do on the flop? Are you looking for a ser? Cus that sucks as a plan, and so if not are you planning to call a Cbet if board is lower than a queen? If you are then really a thin 4bet and fold will be cheaper at times OOP than call and cbet call etc. And then still face a possible turn shove.
I'm not advocating any of them, as other than fold, call or raise is going to cost you some chips, but when you consider that against a nitty 5% range we hold 60% equity I think fold is pretty poor option. But I guess each to their own. It is not an easy hand to play OOP and one of my bogey hands (I just lost with QQvs1010 on a run it twice board where he hit a set twice to win both hands) that I seem to lose to often with in dumb ways. But hey my example shows not everyone shoves with AA or KK only. Not everyone is nitty or wise.