This thread seems to have been diverted a little. Can we try to bring it back to a discussion about Sky's policies on these matters and how they can be made more clear - A more general conversation, rather than focusing on Skill and Go.
There are a couple of other threads specifically about the Skill and Go promotion.
We've all seen the kerfuffle around the skill an go competition. There are certainly one or two things I would like to see clarified: 1. In future, any such promotion should be investigated prior to winners or qualifiers being announced. 2. Sky Poker's policy towards collusion and any allegations of cheating should be given a prominent position on the website. It's only right that people know the procedures and what they need to do to report their suspicions, as well as the sanctions they may face if they are tempted. 3. Those sanctions, particularly where it involves promotions including large prize pools, should include the likelihood of evidence being handed to the police. There's no question that collusion is a crime and, while a £1 DYM may not be worth police time, a £5k competition prize would certainly merit it. I have to admit to being disappointed that it required a particularly vigilant forum member to reveal his suspicions before the skill and go finalists were investigated. That can't be allowed to happen again. There are certainly other issues, though, and I think Sky need to either a) have a think about making their policies more robust or b) be absolutely clear and up-front about existing policies so that people like me may be reassured. With that said, I'd like to reiterate that the Skill and Go promotion is an excellent idea and should be repeated. Preferably it would be made a constant presence, resetting fortnightly or so... but that's for another thread. Any additional thoughts? Posted by BorinLoner
Morning Borin.
Guess I'd better try & answer, as I doubt anyone else will.
These are my personal observations.
1) The Final Six, & their play, WAS being checked & audited, I already explained that, HERE
A misundrstanding arose though, & the "winners" names were accidentally released too early, before the Audit was complete. That was an error, & regrettable. These things happen, I'm afraid, they just do. It was most unfortunate, but in the end, a good & fair Final was had.
2) Sky Poker's policy on the matter of collusion IS well known. You & others may disagree as to how well it is implemented, that's a different thing. Collusion is near impossible to prove. I'm just guessing, but it's a semi-informed guess, & I've been in the Industry in various capacities for over 10 years - but 9 out of 10 allegations of collusion are unfounded. We saw a DREADFUL example of it only 40 minutes before the Final last night, though the Post has since (correctly) been removed. I'll comment further on that shortly. Reporting suspicions? CC first, as always. Failing that, a PM to Sky_Adam, Sky_Sam, SkyPoker or even myself - as many do, even in the last 48 hours, does the trick. I'll demonstrate shortly why "name & shame" will never be permitted here.
3) I've no idea if the Business will take it to the Police, but I'm pretty sure they'd not tell you or me or anyone else if they did. There would be less than 1% chance of a successful prosecution if they did, though, imo. I don't recall such a case, on this or any other site, EVER going to the Police, simply because it would be near impossible to sustain. Most fraud in poker comes from Credit Card malarky, or means by which people defrain Online Sites when Sign Up Bonuses & the like are on offer. These DO go to the Police, I believe. I honestly can't recall a single prosecution along the lines you suggest. I owned a share of an Online Poker site at one time, & all sorts of jiggery pokery went off, but nobody was ever prosecuted for a matter such as this. It's not practical or realistic. IMO, of course.
4) Again, as I already said, & replied HERE, it was already being audited. Even so, I'm sure DTM's input was very much appreciated.
However.......we DO agree that Skill & Go was something that was very well received by a significant number if players. Personally, with some degree of tweakage, & the implementation of lessons learned, thay it is done again in due course.
"....and there we have a perfect demonstration why "name & shame" is not permitted."
However, the Post to which it referred was shortly thereafter removed, (correctly) so my Post now makes no sense.
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO MADE THE POST, I'm not here to castigate him or her. Forget that.
But what he said was...
"Player x (who had qualified for the Final) is a losing player, I've checked on Sharkscope, & he's really bad. I'll get cussed for this post, but too bad - suspect, or what?"
That Post was made 40 minutes before the Final was due to take place. How must the player have felt if he'd seen that, minutes before what i suspect was the biggest moment in his poker life?
But.......he had identified a COMPLETELY different player. The player he named had ONE letter different in his Username. So the "losing" player got his name sullied, & the player in the Final was, in not so many words, accused of cheating. AND IT WAS A MISTAKEN IDENTITY.
Now we get to the heart of the problem. The internet is not written in pencil, it can't be erased. Even though the Post was quickly removed, many people MAY have seen it. And if each of them told 10 mates "x is a cheat", & they in turn each told 10 others, a guy's rep is in tatters, all because of mistaken identity. We all need to consider our actions, & the consequences, BEFORE we Post stuff like that.
How would you like it if it were YOU that were wrongly accused?
And that is why, (I personally hope), "name & shame" will never be permitted here.
You only need one Post to run a persons reputation for life.
Hi, with a fresh look and after reading you responses TK I can see that what I said was totally inappropriate & will not happen again. my apologies to the players involved. Posted by suzy666
No worries Mr Suzy, & I was not seeking your apology, or trying to get heavy with you personally, & I deliberately never mentioned your name.
The Post was removed VERY quickly. I sent a note to the Office almost the second I saw it, & asked them to delete/remove.
In a weird way, your Post was perfect, as there have been these relentless calls here for a while now to "name & shame", & both Sky Poker & myself have taken a lot of flak for insisting it is inappropriate.
If you had tried to demonstrate WHY it is inappropriate, you could not have done better than you did! OK, it was by accident, not design, but hey-ho.
So, hopefully, the Pitchfork Crew & all those who keep bellyaching for "name & shame" will now be able to see the dangers with it, & why Sky Poker, or any other decent poker site, will never allow it. The downside is way bigger than the upside.
Have a good weekend Suzy, & I'll see you on the Tables soon. You & I have shared, literally, hundreds of PLO8 DYM's, & I know you are a good guy. I'm taking a little break from playing this wek, for reasons I won't bore you with, but I hope wee share Tables again soon, & we'll have the usual banter & craic.
PS - Bust MOTHER for me whilst I'm on my little sabbatical, please. Someone needs to, in my absence, though it's my pleasure usually.
Tikay, I can't agree that Sky's policy on collusion is well-known ("collusion is bad" isn't a policy). Nor are the processes for reporting it. Those processes are certainly not given prominence on the website, as I would like to see.
On the home page there is no indication of what is and is not collusion or cheating. There is no link on the website to a page explaining the wrongs of multi-accounting. There is no obvious way to report any suspicious play. There is no clear indication of the sanctions that may be imposed on anybody caught out.
I'm not asking for a lot. I'm suggesting there needs to be a prominent policy page on the integrity of the games on Sky Poker.
On the specific matter of the skill and go promotion and whether the police could be involved: Ordinarily I'd agree with you. It's unrealistic to believe that someone would be pursued for cheating in a few DYM's. However, in this case clear evidence is available that this person tried to cheat his way to a payday of up to £1500. It's not a trivial amount of money and we even have a written confession from the person involved.
More importantly is the broader point that Sky Poker or Sky Bet are not the right people to decide whether it's worth pursuing a criminal case. We can't have companies sitting on evidence of wrongdoing, simply because they don't think the police will take it seriously. The Police and CPS are the right people to make that decision.
The transparency of the poker industry is pretty woeful. Sky Poker keeps claiming that it's better than the rest and is a safe place to play. Here's a chance to prove it. Not that I expect to be kept informed on individual cases. It needs to be a standing policy.
It's a relief to know that the final table was being investigated prior to DTM's revelations.
To my mind, though, it does emphasise the need for a more clear and prominent policy page on these matters that seemingly none of the forum regs currently have any confidence in Sky's processes. It's not only DTM that feels he gets nowhere when reporting these issues to customer care. He's certainly not the first who felt he had no alternative but to post his suspicions on the forum for all to see, in order to get some sort of response.
We all agree that such public accusations are not the right way for things to be done. Perhaps a few of these incidents could be avoided by greater clarity in Sky's policies.
I think I've probably said enough on this issue and the Skill and Go thread now and my views are clear. I'll shut up to avoid discouraging others from airing their views.
I do agree that a page with some clarification would be good, but it needs to be somewhere very visible not just a Ts & Cs page somewhere that 99% of players are never going to look at/know exists. This page/information may already exist, but if it does I had no idea about it.
If only as an education piece, as oppose to a deterrent, it's a big plus. Anyone who has been on the forum for a while will have seen many many posts where people just don't know the rules about these kinda things.
eg. I was all in on the bubble of a satellite/DYM and 2 other people checked it down, is this cheating?
^^^ I've seen TONS of threads like this. Most of the time it's the case that nothing was said in the chat box so it's just clever poker but a lot of recreational players won't know the ins and outs of what is and isn't cheating.
I bet many people have multiple accounts, and I bet most of them it's harmless mistake because they just didn't know any better. If nothing else, it would step people 'cheating' out of ignorance.
It's a relief to know that the final table was being investigated prior to DTM's revelations. To my mind, though, it does emphasise the need for a more clear and prominent policy page on these matters that seemingly none of the forum regs currently have any confidence in Sky's processes. It's not only DTM that feels he gets nowhere when reporting these issues to customer care. He's certainly not the first who felt he had no alternative but to post his suspicions on the forum for all to see, in order to get some sort of response. We all agree that such public accusations are not the right way for things to be done. Perhaps a few of these incidents could be avoided by greater clarity in Sky's policies. I think I've probably said enough on this issue and the Skill and Go thread now and my views are clear. I'll shut up to avoid discouraging others from airing their views. Posted by BorinLoner
If the site fails to respond/act when informed of these concerns then I would have thought that the next step would be to contact the licensing authority.
Comments
....and there we have a perfect demonstration why "name & shame" is not permitted.
The 6 finalists play their Final in less than an hour.
Let's just wish them all luck, & not spoil their special evening.
+1
There are a couple of other threads specifically about the Skill and Go promotion.
Morning Borin.
Guess I'd better try & answer, as I doubt anyone else will.
These are my personal observations.
1) The Final Six, & their play, WAS being checked & audited, I already explained that, HERE
A misundrstanding arose though, & the "winners" names were accidentally released too early, before the Audit was complete. That was an error, & regrettable. These things happen, I'm afraid, they just do. It was most unfortunate, but in the end, a good & fair Final was had.
2) Sky Poker's policy on the matter of collusion IS well known. You & others may disagree as to how well it is implemented, that's a different thing. Collusion is near impossible to prove. I'm just guessing, but it's a semi-informed guess, & I've been in the Industry in various capacities for over 10 years - but 9 out of 10 allegations of collusion are unfounded. We saw a DREADFUL example of it only 40 minutes before the Final last night, though the Post has since (correctly) been removed. I'll comment further on that shortly. Reporting suspicions? CC first, as always. Failing that, a PM to Sky_Adam, Sky_Sam, SkyPoker or even myself - as many do, even in the last 48 hours, does the trick. I'll demonstrate shortly why "name & shame" will never be permitted here.
3) I've no idea if the Business will take it to the Police, but I'm pretty sure they'd not tell you or me or anyone else if they did. There would be less than 1% chance of a successful prosecution if they did, though, imo. I don't recall such a case, on this or any other site, EVER going to the Police, simply because it would be near impossible to sustain. Most fraud in poker comes from Credit Card malarky, or means by which people defrain Online Sites when Sign Up Bonuses & the like are on offer. These DO go to the Police, I believe. I honestly can't recall a single prosecution along the lines you suggest. I owned a share of an Online Poker site at one time, & all sorts of jiggery pokery went off, but nobody was ever prosecuted for a matter such as this. It's not practical or realistic. IMO, of course.
4) Again, as I already said, & replied HERE, it was already being audited. Even so, I'm sure DTM's input was very much appreciated.
However.......we DO agree that Skill & Go was something that was very well received by a significant number if players. Personally, with some degree of tweakage, & the implementation of lessons learned, thay it is done again in due course.
There you go, I've replied.
Have a good weekend.
I Posted this above......
"....and there we have a perfect demonstration why "name & shame" is not permitted."
However, the Post to which it referred was shortly thereafter removed, (correctly) so my Post now makes no sense.
IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO MADE THE POST, I'm not here to castigate him or her. Forget that.
But what he said was...
"Player x (who had qualified for the Final) is a losing player, I've checked on Sharkscope, & he's really bad. I'll get cussed for this post, but too bad - suspect, or what?"
That Post was made 40 minutes before the Final was due to take place. How must the player have felt if he'd seen that, minutes before what i suspect was the biggest moment in his poker life?
But.......he had identified a COMPLETELY different player. The player he named had ONE letter different in his Username. So the "losing" player got his name sullied, & the player in the Final was, in not so many words, accused of cheating. AND IT WAS A MISTAKEN IDENTITY.
Now we get to the heart of the problem. The internet is not written in pencil, it can't be erased. Even though the Post was quickly removed, many people MAY have seen it. And if each of them told 10 mates "x is a cheat", & they in turn each told 10 others, a guy's rep is in tatters, all because of mistaken identity. We all need to consider our actions, & the consequences, BEFORE we Post stuff like that.
How would you like it if it were YOU that were wrongly accused?
And that is why, (I personally hope), "name & shame" will never be permitted here.
You only need one Post to run a persons reputation for life.
with a fresh look and after reading you responses TK I can see that what I said was totally inappropriate & will not happen again.
my apologies to the players involved.
The Post was removed VERY quickly. I sent a note to the Office almost the second I saw it, & asked them to delete/remove.
In a weird way, your Post was perfect, as there have been these relentless calls here for a while now to "name & shame", & both Sky Poker & myself have taken a lot of flak for insisting it is inappropriate.
If you had tried to demonstrate WHY it is inappropriate, you could not have done better than you did! OK, it was by accident, not design, but hey-ho.
So, hopefully, the Pitchfork Crew & all those who keep bellyaching for "name & shame" will now be able to see the dangers with it, & why Sky Poker, or any other decent poker site, will never allow it. The downside is way bigger than the upside.
Have a good weekend Suzy, & I'll see you on the Tables soon. You & I have shared, literally, hundreds of PLO8 DYM's, & I know you are a good guy. I'm taking a little break from playing this wek, for reasons I won't bore you with, but I hope wee share Tables again soon, & we'll have the usual banter & craic.
PS - Bust MOTHER for me whilst I'm on my little sabbatical, please. Someone needs to, in my absence, though it's my pleasure usually.
On the home page there is no indication of what is and is not collusion or cheating. There is no link on the website to a page explaining the wrongs of multi-accounting. There is no obvious way to report any suspicious play. There is no clear indication of the sanctions that may be imposed on anybody caught out.
I'm not asking for a lot. I'm suggesting there needs to be a prominent policy page on the integrity of the games on Sky Poker.
On the specific matter of the skill and go promotion and whether the police could be involved: Ordinarily I'd agree with you. It's unrealistic to believe that someone would be pursued for cheating in a few DYM's. However, in this case clear evidence is available that this person tried to cheat his way to a payday of up to £1500. It's not a trivial amount of money and we even have a written confession from the person involved.
More importantly is the broader point that Sky Poker or Sky Bet are not the right people to decide whether it's worth pursuing a criminal case. We can't have companies sitting on evidence of wrongdoing, simply because they don't think the police will take it seriously. The Police and CPS are the right people to make that decision.
The transparency of the poker industry is pretty woeful. Sky Poker keeps claiming that it's better than the rest and is a safe place to play. Here's a chance to prove it. Not that I expect to be kept informed on individual cases. It needs to be a standing policy.
To my mind, though, it does emphasise the need for a more clear and prominent policy page on these matters that seemingly none of the forum regs currently have any confidence in Sky's processes. It's not only DTM that feels he gets nowhere when reporting these issues to customer care. He's certainly not the first who felt he had no alternative but to post his suspicions on the forum for all to see, in order to get some sort of response.
We all agree that such public accusations are not the right way for things to be done. Perhaps a few of these incidents could be avoided by greater clarity in Sky's policies.
I think I've probably said enough on this issue and the Skill and Go thread now and my views are clear. I'll shut up to avoid discouraging others from airing their views.