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Ivey in Court

VespaPXVespaPX Member Posts: 12,485
edited October 2014 in Poker Chat

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2778334/Top-U-S-poker-player-begins-legal-action-claim-7-7m-prize-money-London-casino-accused-cheating-win.html
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush Member Posts: 4,494
    edited October 2014
    Can't see Ivey losing. He requested a certain type of deck, they provided it. It's no different to card counting, it's just using all the information available to him.

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  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,620
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    Can't see Ivey losing. He requested a certain type of deck, they provided it. It's no different to card counting, it's just using all the information available to him.
    Posted by FlashFlush
     Seems he just has! 
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush Member Posts: 4,494
    edited October 2014
    Yeah just saw the report on it. I think Crockfords has had a lucky escape there. At least they gave Ivey his initial stake back, so the only thing it's cost him, is court fees. Which I expect is similar to dropping a penny down the drain to us regular folk.
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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 172,751
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    Yeah just saw the report on it. I think Crockfords has had a lucky escape there. At least they gave Ivey his initial stake back, so the only thing it's cost him, is court fees. Which I expect is similar to dropping a penny down the drain to us regular folk.
    Posted by FlashFlush
    Maybe Ivey had a lucky escape, in that he got his stake back?

    Would you not agree that, as in poker, "spirit of the game" is just as important as the rules?

    We can all find dodgy "edges" if we really try, but would it not be better for all of us if we did not?

    Would you rather we all played on a level playing field? I know I would.
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  • GREGSTERGREGSTER Member Posts: 386
    edited October 2014
    I wonder if crockfords will be looking to give all those that lost playing these rules their money back? Doubt it.
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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 172,751
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    I wonder if crockfords will be looking to give all those that lost playing these rules their money back? Doubt it.
    Posted by GREGSTER
    If they were playing Ivey's "rules" there would not be many on that list - in effect, they could not lose!
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush Member Posts: 4,494
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court : Maybe Ivey had a lucky escape, in that he got his stake back? Would you not agree that, as in poker, "spirit of the game" is just as important as the rules? We can all find dodgy "edges" if we really try, but would it not be better for all of us if we did not? Would you rather we all played on a level playing field? I know I would.
    Posted by Tikay10
    But casino games, as we all know are not a level playing field are they. It just seems very much a case of they don't like the shoe being on the other foot.

    Although it's not in the spirit of the game and all that, in my eyes they should just put their hands up and say, you know what, you've done us here, stitched up like a kipper. Lets use this as a lesson and learn from it, rather than almost crying off and saying, Ooohhhh this isn't fair we want our money back.

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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited October 2014
    If you were playing poker with someone and found out they were beating you by marking the cards, would you be happy to say that you just need to learn from it and he can keep your money?

    I'm not going to claim to have any idea about Punto Banco, but essentially Phil Ivey was marking the cards. He asked for a specific deck to be used, which wasn't going to be changed. The only difference was that rather than marking the deck with his own hands he was playing on the naivety of the dealer to mark the deck for him.

    If you think that "the casino should be more savvy" is an excuse for Ivey to receive his "winnings" the same argument could be extended to it being alright for anyone to be cheated at poker, as long as they're inexperienced or trusting enough to allow it to happen. 

    "You didn't spot the Aces up my sleeve, so I deserve to beat you."
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  • golds95golds95 Member Posts: 132
    edited October 2014
    I dont think you can compare the two in terms of cheating as one if you play fairly you can never win long term, also the casino management gave into every demand thay he wanted which they could have declined. Also if he used his system and maybe lost as he could have in the short term do you think they would have been demanding his money. Course not just seems like there just burnt because someone had the edge on them having the edge.
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  • FlashFlushFlashFlush Member Posts: 4,494
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    If you were playing poker with someone and found out they were beating you by marking the cards, would you be happy to say that you just need to learn from it and he can keep your money? I'm not going to claim to have any idea about Punto Banco, but essentially Phil Ivey was marking the cards. He asked for a specific deck to be used, which wasn't going to be changed. The only difference was that rather than marking the deck with his own hands he was playing on the naivety of the dealer to mark the deck for him. If you think that "the casino should be more savvy" is an excuse for Ivey to receive his "winnings" the same argument could be extended to it being alright for anyone to be cheated at poker, as long as they're inexperienced or trusting enough to allow it to happen.  "You didn't spot the Aces up my sleeve, so I deserve to beat you."
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick here. But I thought Ivey was going by markings that are put on the cards by the manufacturer. Nobody in the casino has altered the cards nor has Ivey himself. If Ivey knows these particular make of cards have different markings on them, then so should the casino. Hence my point, they should learn from their mistake and not allowed that make of playing card in their casino.
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  • golds95golds95 Member Posts: 132
    edited October 2014
    If you want to bring poker into it its like saying to thr other player can I have aces every hand they say yes so you do then later they tell you they want there money back. And it was a fault in the manufacturing process which he used to his advantage not marking

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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited October 2014
    Well, regardless of whether it was a flaw in the manufacturing or an error by the dealer, the cards were marked and that's how he was able to win.

    You absolutely can compare poker (or any other game) to this. If you sit to play punto banco, roulette or anything else, you're accepting that the odds may be against you winning when played within the parameters of the game. You're agreeing to those parameters and so is the other party. That's the "gaming contract" spoken about in this case.

    If you use methods outside of the parameters of that agreement, you're breaking that gaming contract. One of the key parameters of the game in this instance is that all the cards are alike and indistinguishable from the back. One side was aware that this was not the case. The other side was not.

    To bring it back to poker (because I actually know something about that game) if you agree to sit down and play against me with my deck and later discover that my deck is marked in a way that I am familiar with, are you going to think that's fair?

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  • GEO68GEO68 Member Posts: 281
    edited October 2014
    Not good news for Ivey then as I think he has another case pending with a Stateside Casino for the same thing .
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  • 12671267 Member Posts: 936
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    Well, regardless of whether it was a flaw in the manufacturing or an error by the dealer, the cards were marked and that's how he was able to win. You absolutely can compare poker (or any other game) to this. If you sit to play punto banco, roulette or anything else, you're accepting that the odds may be against you winning when played within the parameters of the game. You're agreeing to those parameters and so is the other party. That's the "gaming contract" spoken about in this case. If you use methods outside of the parameters of that agreement, you're breaking that gaming contract. One of the key parameters of the game in this instance is that all the cards are alike and indistinguishable from the back. One side was aware that this was not the case. The other side was not. To bring it back to poker (because I actually know something about that game) if you agree to sit down and play against me with my deck and later discover that my deck is marked in a way that I am familiar with, are you going to think that's fair?
    Posted by BorinLoner
    but this wouldn't happen. Unlike the Casino and/or dealer i have common sense. I would say no, we'll play with the normal cards thanks.  Or i would check them for markings .....
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  • 12671267 Member Posts: 936
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court : Maybe Ivey had a lucky escape, in that he got his stake back? Would you not agree that, as in poker, "spirit of the game" is just as important as the rules? We can all find dodgy "edges" if we really try, but would it not be better for all of us if we did not? Would you rather we all played on a level playing field? I know I would.
    Posted by Tikay10
    But isn't he just 'playing against the Casino' ?

    The same way we 'play against the bookies' when betting.
     
    Yet you seem happy to promote and participate in shows with guests which try and gain us an edge on the Bookies... 
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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court : but this wouldn't happen. Unlike the Casino and/or dealer i have common sense. I would say no, we'll play with the normal cards thanks.  Or i would check them for markings .....
    Posted by 1267
    So you always check the decks you play with at home games or casinos? I suspect you generally assume that people are playing fair and don't whip out your magnifying glass before every hand.

    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court : But isn't he just 'playing against the Casino' ? The same way we 'play against the bookies' when betting.   Yet you seem happy to promote and participate in shows with guests which try and gain us an edge on the Bookies... 
    Posted by 1267



    When betting against bookies, you're betting on the outcome of a sporting event that everyone assumes is fair. The agreement you're making with the bookie is predicated on that event being played out within the rules of the sport. If you have inside information that a sporting event WILL have a particular outcome (e.g. because the ref's been nobbled), you're not making a fair bet. That's analagous to Phil Ivey knowing which cards are which in this case.


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  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited October 2014
    Have to agree with borin here
    The casino is merely facilitating a game of cards. But in this case Ivey has found a way to defraud the casino while playing. As the judge said it's not about whether the casino could have protected itself better it's about what Ivey was doing. He wasn't playing cards he was scamming the casino. 
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  • 12671267 Member Posts: 936
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court : So you always check the decks you play with at home games or casinos? I suspect you generally assume that people are playing fair and don't whip out your magnifying glass before every hand. When betting against bookies, you're betting on the outcome of a sporting event that everyone assumes is fair. The agreement you're making with the bookie is predicated on that event being played out within the rules of the sport. If you have inside information that a sporting event WILL have a particular outcome (e.g. because the ref's been nobbled), you're not making a fair bet. That's analagous to Phil Ivey knowing which cards are which in this case.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Yes.
    Would definately check if somebody said 'lets use this certain deck'  like Ivey did.

    Ivey knows the cards, but he does not know the outcome.  Back to poker for you, I;ve got Aces, i know you have Ace king (due to markings). We go all-in.  Yes i have an edge, but i do not know for sure the outcome.
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  • MilitantGMilitantG Member Posts: 204
    edited October 2014
    The fact is Ivey did not cheat, he used his intelligence and outsmarted the casino.

    It seems that it's ok for casinos to give high rollers free drinks and stuff to encourage them to stay and spend (lose) more money but not for them to use their brain and win.

    A casino claiming the moral high ground, well i'll be damned.

    It will be interesting to see how the US courts will deal with Ivey's other case.
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  • 12671267 Member Posts: 936
    edited October 2014
    In Response to Re: Ivey in Court:
    Have to agree with borin here The casino is merely facilitating a game of cards. But in this case Ivey has found a way to defraud the casino while playing. As the judge said it's not about whether the casino could have protected itself better it's about what Ivey was doing. He wasn't playing cards he was scamming the casino. 
    Posted by GELDY
    Lollll He'd be in jail.
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