Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client

ACESOVER8s

I asked about a month ago if the download version would be compatible with these programs and the tech guys said it was slightly too early to tell if it would. Was just wondering if this has advanced any since that time and if they now have an aswer as to weather or not we will be able to use them?

Cheers

Chris

* If you could ask again for me sky rich then i would be most grateful. This is a deciding factor for me as to weather or not to roll up properly for cash games on sky or just carry on playing little bits here and there as when i fancy.

Sky_Rich

No problem. i'll send this back over to the guys.

Sky_Adam

In Response to Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

I asked about a month ago if the download version would be compatible with these programs and the tech guys said it was slightly too early to tell if it would. Was just wondering if this has advanced any since that time and if they now have an aswer as to weather or not we will be able to use them? Cheers Chris * If you could ask again for me sky rich then i would be most grateful. This is a deciding factor for me as to weather or not to roll up properly for cash games on sky or just carry on playing little bits here and there as when i fancy.
Posted by ACESOVER8s

Hi Chris,

This area of the download client has not yet been finalised and there are many factors to consider, therefore there is no answer to your query as of yet.


The Integration of PT3, PO, HEM etc software has been well debated on here before, there are players who sit on either side of the fence and we will not be making a decision lightly.

I understand that this is an important question for you and many other players, as soon as we have an answer we will make it clear to you and the rest of the Sky Poker community.

Kind Regards

Adam

ACESOVER8s

Thanks Rich & Adam,

A speedy response to my question and although it doesn't settle the matter i do understand its not an easy proposition (due to people who don't want them on here) and also if the web browser versions, TV versions etc will all run alongside each other i presume there would be a mountain of technical issues.

I look forward to further news and would like to thank you both for taking the time to deal

Cheers

Chris

namesb0nd

would be great to see it as i have never tried it myself and think it looks great.I understand that it would be a large task to undertake,but it would be great

FishingPhi

This is a deciding factor for me as to weather or not to roll up properly for cash games on sky or just carry on playing little bits here and there as when i fancy.
Posted by ACESOVER8s

What's the WEATHER got to do with it? ;o)


I personally believe that such "helper" programs have spoiled online poker and it is borderline cheating. Poker is meant to be a skill game and as such, we should all be on a level playing field. I feel that players should try to improve their OWN game rather than turning to 3rd party software to gain an advantage. If everyone is going to use software to make a decision, then you may as well turn the poker site into a casino.

MereNovice

It is not using software to make a decision.

A tool like PT3 merely stores hands in an easily accessible format and allows players to improve their play by analysing their, and their opponent's play.

All the information is already available on SkyPoker.

All that we are requesting is that this information is recorded in a format that can be imported into a useful analytical tool.

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

What's the WEATHER got to do with it? ;o) I personally believe that such "helper" programs have spoiled online poker and it is borderline cheating. Poker is meant to be a skill game and as such, we should all be on a level playing field. I feel that players should try to improve their OWN game rather than turning to 3rd party software to gain an advantage. If everyone is going to use software to make a decision, then you may as well turn the poker site into a casino.
Posted by FishingPhi

I Find on the whole that people who comment back against tracker programs in the manner you have done will have little to no experiance of the programs and somehow assume that the program plays the game for you. It tracks play, records hands and allows you to identify weakness in your game and eliminate it. Your statement highlighted above is EXACTLY the reason i would use a tracker on this site don't you see that??? how do you spot where your game has gone off track? do yo uknow if you 3 bet too little or too much against certain players? are you constantly dripping money away by SB on BB raises??? i'll bet you don't have the data to answer those questions and do you know why????? Yep because for problems like these you probably wouldn't notice them unless you had tracked them !!!! (P.S you get 3 brownie points if you guessed the answer to that)

It's not about cheating, the program doesn't show you what your opponent is holding or what's coming on the flop. It just records what has already occured. This could be done on a spread sheet but you would spend more time typing than playing so it's not really worth it..... Kinda like i could walk to John o'Groats but it would be a bit quicker to take a car wouldn't it, not cheating just using technology available as we don't live in the 1700's

FishingPhi

It is not using software to make a decision. A tool like PT3 merely stores hands in an easily accessible format and allows players to improve their play by analysing their, and their opponent's play. All the information is already available on SkyPoker. All that we are requesting is that this information is recorded in a format that can be imported into a useful analytical tool.
Posted by MereNovice

So why do you need more software? Seriously though, programs like PT will give you EVERY possible statistic on your opponents. Statistics like % flops seen, check/raise %, hourly rates, etc, etc, all shown in a nice HUD. You could never work all that out in your head and that is why i feel that it is not proper poker. But i guess that's what happens when money games meet the internet - there's always someone trying to go one better.

Don't get me wrong, i don't disagree with such tools as long as everyone uses the same, or at least you can visibly see when an opponent is using some sort of tracking or profiling software against you. Nobody can deny that using such software gives users an advantage. Whether that is fair or unfair is another debate.

ACESOVER8s

Fishing, it will give an advantage but it's no different to playing football in a pair of old work boots or a pair of Top Class football boots. You CAN play in old steel toe caps if you want but it's a better idea to wear a good pair of football boots as it helps you focus your skill. That doesn't mean that if you put me in a pair of Addidas Preditors and Beckham in the steel toe caps that i'm going to be better than him. Lets face it, he's still going to kick my preverbial isn't he

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

So why do you need more software? Seriously though, programs like PT will give you EVERY possible statistic on your opponents. Statistics like % flops seen, check/raise %, hourly rates, etc, etc, all shown in a nice HUD. You could never work all that out in your head and that is why i feel that it is not proper poker. But i guess that's what happens when money games meet the internet - there's always someone trying to go one better. Don't get me wrong, i don't disagree with such tools as long as everyone uses the same, or at least you can visibly see when an opponent is using some sort of tracking or profiling software against you. Nobody can deny that using such software gives users an advantage. Whether that is fair or unfair is another debate.
Posted by FishingPhi

The response to this is simple. The current format of the info doesn't lend itself to being able to store or review properly. If the HH was extractable then you can really look at what your doing with your game through one of the aforementioned programs

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

So why do you need more software? Seriously though, programs like PT will give you EVERY possible statistic on your opponents. Statistics like % flops seen, check/raise %, hourly rates, etc, etc, all shown in a nice HUD. You could never work all that out in your head and that is why i feel that it is not proper poker. But i guess that's what happens when money games meet the internet - there's always someone trying to go one better. Don't get me wrong, i don't disagree with such tools as long as everyone uses the same, or at least you can visibly see when an opponent is using some sort of tracking or profiling software against you. Nobody can deny that using such software gives users an advantage. Whether that is fair or unfair is another debate.
Posted by FishingPhi

I don't need the software - I choose to use it where available since it helps improve my game. Everyone else has the option to use the same software.

The tool only provides information on opponents for hands played at tables where you are both participating since these are the only hands available to be imported.

While I cannot work this information out "in my head" I can assure you that given enough resources I could work it out on a spreadsheet or write the equivalent software myself.

PT3 has no "real time" component - it does not interact with a player at the table, it merely provides analysis that be viewed away from the table.

I am certainly not accusing you of this but there appears to be a high level of paranoia about tools like this based on a lack of understanding of how the tools work. People often fear what they cannot understand.

FishingPhi

I do not want to start a slanging match. I have used both PokerTracker and PokerOffice in the past and numerous other "helper" programs such as Poker Sherlock. Even Sharkscope is slightly unethical IMO (pokerstars have banned it) but we are forced to use these tools if we want to keep up with the competition. Most of them help the user with table selection and have a HUD and also have add-ons for features such as live odds calculators and (quoted from the first feature mentioned on the P.O. website) "Real time opponent statistics and betting patterns". So what if someone c-bets too often or doesn't check/raise enough? Poker is supposed to be about personalities and individual playing styles, not some statistically perfect strategy.

My point was that it would make a refreshing change to have a poker site where these type of programs were completely banned or at least had to be publicly declared. I mean something a bit closer to "traditional" poker where we use only what we have between our ears. Easier said than done, i know, as there will always be someone trying to take advantage of others. In reality, there's no getting away from such things on the 'net. In the "old days" we had to do our own homework and fix leaks in our game by making some costly mistakes and then thinking "hmmmm, that was a bad idea". If you lose a few quid, you soon discover your leaks.

I guess the only way to avoid these kind of disadvantages is to do as others do or simply avoid playing on the 'net alltogether.

ACESOVER8s

Pokerstars have not banned sharkscope. It is simply optional to be listed or not. I agree it's not about getting into a slanging match but there are certain words used in your first post that cast a light upon someone like myself who would like the download client to accept them. Words like "Cheating". Not a personal attack on me i understand but for those that read the forum and don't understand what these software packages are they take one look at words like that and jump on the bandwagon.

The Hud aspects of trackers are feeding back info on the hands they collect. They are not predicting the future. They are not commenting on every player as they only have info on those you have played. You would have to have hundreds of hands against any one player for the info to even become relevant. I'm not overly bothered by the HUD part of the tracker if i'm playing one table, i will note if someone always C-Bets or constantly folds to the C-Bet. However if i'm playing 8 tables then it's a little more difficult. If i play live do i need a tracker .... no but then i'm not involved i 8 different games live and running from table to table.

Online isn't live, cash games are played multitable and although you may have the skill for the game to pick up the reads, your attention is more divided and for that the hud can be useful

Jay1642

So can you use HEM on Sky now?

I'm watching Mastercash and they are quoting stats in some of the problems?

Seriously, if you want more people to play Sky then HEM is a requirement for the site as if you use it to improve your play, you don't want your own stats messed up by playing on sites not using it, reducing the sample size.

ajs4385

I think its great sky does not allow this software, part of poker is analysing your opponents therefore having this software takes an element of skill out of the game. Also software like this puts many people off playing online poker.

I am happy playing at Sky, however if Sky did enable this software I would most probably move sites along with a lot of others who share similar views to me.

Sky should advertise the fact they do not allow tracking software, this would attract a lot of players to the site, I dont know why there marketing department has not thought of this already.

PS I have used PT HEM and PO before on other sites.

MereNovice

I really don't follow the logic of this at all.

Effectively all these tools do is aggregate, organise and present information that it is already available on the website.

They are labour-saving devices, nothing more.

They do not magically give you insight into your opponent's play; they just provide statistical information that you could work out for yourself manually if you had the inclination.

I make copious notes on my opponents. I do not regard this as a "skill". It is just a requirement because tools like PT are not compatible with SkyPoker currently.

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

I think its great sky does not allow this software, part of poker is analysing your opponents therefore having this software takes an element of skill out of the game. Also software like this puts many people off playing online poker. I am happy playing at Sky, however if Sky did enable this software I would most probably move sites along with a lot of others who share similar views to me. Sky should advertise the fact they do not allow tracking software, this would attract a lot of players to the site, I dont know why there marketing department has not thought of this already. PS I have used PT HEM and PO before on other sites.
Posted by ajs4385

I get that some people don't like them because they believe they give unfair advantage (which is wrong but i get it). No "Unfair" advantage is gained as A) The software is available to all who want it and people are incorrectly assuming that these things tell you what to play and when.

I don't get how someone who has used them on other sites (And is obviously a very experianced and quality player like yourself AJS) would refuse to play on a site that accepted them? if you have used then you know what they are about and at the stakes you play i would think you would welcome the statistical info they can provided you with on your own game?

Would i be right in thinking that the fish you feed off would improve a little to quickly for your liking with these programs available AJS ???? lol

On a serious note - I would like to see them introduced with the downloadable client as i have many holes in my game here that could do with fixing lol but if there not then i'll continue to play here for fun and play elsewhere for the main of my roll.

People have a slightly idealised view of why there not currently available to use here, it's not to prevent cheating or unfair advantage, there is no moral highground that sky had taken here, it's just their software can't do it.

If they want to use the lack of tracking software use on SKY as a USP then good luck to them but i'd bet that the numbers are reasonably similar in those that do want them to those that don't

Sky_Dave

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

Effectively all these tools do is aggregate, organise and present information that it is already available on the website. They are labour-saving devices, nothing more.
Posted by MereNovice

Not quite right, because what they do is process the information and present in real-time, making it more accessible to you than it would be if you were just making manual notes and obviously far more comprehensive. That new and more readily available information could alter your decision making in marginal spots. In that sense, it enhances your play as well as reducing your labour.

ACESOVER8s

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client : Not quite right, because what they do is process the information and present in real-time, making it more accessible to you than it would be if you were just making manual notes and obviously far more comprehensive. That new and more readily available information could alter your decision making in marginal spots. In that sense, it enhances your play as well as reducing your labour.
Posted by Sky_Dave

Hmmmmm....... Understand what your saying Dave but the HUD collects the info and presents it. You still have to make your own call on what to do with that info, as such would you not agree that the hud gives YOU the ability to enhance your game rather than does it for you?

I'm in agreement that the software helps you play better (or why else would i want the site to be compatable with them) but not because it's making your decisions and playing for you (which seems to be some peoples view on these things) but because it can provide the info you need to improve your game.

I guess we'll know soon enough which way sky have gone on this, and like i say i'll have no worries either way (so don't go expecting any I'm off threads in the near future lol) but i do hope they become available to use on here as i'd like to play more cash here.

You don't offer an opinion on them Dave? Do you use them at other sites? do you like them? or do you consider them an unfair advantage to those not using them? (if your allowed to offer a view as an employee)

OMahonyO

In Response to Re: Compatability OF PT3 & HEM with Skys Downloadable Client:

I really don't follow the logic of this at all. Effectively all these tools do is aggregate, organise and present information that it is already available on the website. They are labour-saving devices, nothing more. They do not magically give you insight into your opponent's play; they just provide statistical information that you could work out for yourself manually if you had the inclination. I make copious notes on my opponents. I do not regard this as a "skill". It is just a requirement because tools like PT are not compatible with SkyPoker currently.
Posted by MereNovice

OK, Ive used pt and po on most other sites and it is a good tool.   For analysing ur own game it is excellent, but lets be honest with ourselves.  The reason I use it is to see what my oppo`s are doing.  When multitabling, it is difficult to make notes so pt/po/hem basically do it for you and more.

Merenovice and others who say it is not cheating. 

Steroids are banned from sport as they are an aid. poker tracker is brain steroids.  It is super human.  No human could possibly keep track of realtime stats in their head 12 tabling.  Unless you are rain man of course.

Personally, I would HATE to see sky allow tracking software.  This is one of the last sanctuarys left