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played badly...but is this an insta call?

devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
edited November 2014 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
ySmall blind 50.0050.004305.00
devonfish5Big blind 100.00150.001865.00
 Your hole cards
  • A
  • 10
   
REDARROW61Raise 200.00350.001745.00
Frankie122Fold    
RumpyCall 200.00550.001745.00
yCall 150.00700.004155.00
devonfish5Call 100.00800.001765.00
Flop
  
  • 10
  • 8
  • 7
   
yCheck    
devonfish5Bet 100.00900.001665.00
REDARROW61Fold    
RumpyCall 100.001000.001645.00
yRaise 650.001650.003505.00
devonfish5Fold    
RumpyFold    
yMuck    
yWin 1100.00 4605.00
yReturn 550.000.005155.00
«1

Comments

  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    £5 dym
    y checks the flop
    not sure why i only bet 100 think it was a stopper/see where i am sort of bet
    had no notes on player y  but he had been quite busy & aggro.
    felt i was probably good here but would have felt silly if y had shown me a better hand, so reluctantly folded to find a better spot.
    as it happens i ran into KK twice on the bubble & lost  :(
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited November 2014
    100 lead is pointless and leaves you wide open for being taken off your hand. Should never really be betting to ''see where you are''.

    Folding what you think is the best hand not to look silly? Really?

    Would've thought it was a simple check call the flop and go from there.
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    i did say i played it badly hh  lol
    yes the 100 bet i can now see was pointless.
    ok maybe silly wasn't the correct phrase but you know what i mean. i didn't want to lose a game with just tptk when there would have been other spots i could find later.
    check calling the flop would have been just as bad i think, as all the chips would still have all gone all-in at some point, probably.
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited November 2014
    So what then, you peel A10d, 10 high flop and you just wanna fold to a single bet?

    Should probably just fold pre if that's the case.
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    yep, that's a good point.
     but for just 100 chips more, having invested 100 already from the big blind isn't it worth a look with A10 suited? it must be with 700 chips in pot.
    i'm thinking it's my post flop play that is possibly in question here?

    should i have bet 1/2 pot ie; 400 chips on flop? or would the check have been better?

    in each case what should i do if re-raised or set all-in?

    i don't play oop very often as you can tell  lol
  • Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited November 2014
    Think its a pretty easy flop check and pray for a free card which is a nice turn (A/10) a diamond etc. Wouldn't be putting any more chips in as played however, small blinds range will be very wide and after raising the flop at worst I expect him to have pair+straight draws again all dependant on notes, so even against hands we beat we aren't in great shape (note dependant obviously, some may go crazy with K10/Q10)

    Dont understand your donk min bet at all if you are folding to a raise. Screams to be taken advantage of
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited November 2014
    Why would you lead half pot here?

    I think most are checking this to the PFR. Chances of getting a free card are probably quite good.

    Look, I don't think anyone folds pre. Just give up poker if you do. Granted, multiway we might want to be looking at smashing a flop as opposed to hitting it sideways like this. Leading out with any sizing here is a mistake IMO. With one diamond on board and TPTK, I think we need to see what others do and go from there. It might well be bet and raised before it gets back to use, so easy fold. It might be checked through and we hit a gin turn card. To lead then fold is just pointless.

    Thoughts on shoving pre? I don't play with these guys so no idea on their game, but we realistically only have to get the shove through RedArrow, as the others have pretty capped ranges. There is about 40% of our stack in the middle, and the chance to get it without even seeing a flop. Unlikely to get looked up by worse but can fold out plenty of flips.
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    thanks Matt, hhy,

    why would i 1/2 pot lead here? because it's better than how i played it? by taking the lead in the hand & showing some agression,(how i usually play), 
    i now know that the check is ok for next time.

    this is not a common hand situation going 4 way to the flop especially at the £5 level, so i was unsure as to my best play v 4 opponents.
    yes, shoving pre is an option but is it worth the risk?
    we have no idea what redarrow has and many are happy flipping with some kind of pair, even at this level.




  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited November 2014
    Check flop. You dont do well when called, esp with that many players in the pot, esp oop.

    You're going to be played back at often. Very standard check. even if you were in position, the original raiser and heads up youd be probably better off checking
  • jordz16jordz16 Member Posts: 2,253
    edited November 2014
    I would be shoving pre, so much dead money to pick up and i think we only get called from 1010+ and id say we would take it down pre 80% of the time as people hate calling off shoves in DYM's even if he shows up with jj/qq/kk you aint in bad shape i think the reward of shoving outweights the risk here.....

    As for the the flop, id check and call a reasonable bet and then if we are bet into again on the turn we can give up unless we have improved at all.
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    thanks Teddy, jordz.


  • Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: played badly...but is this an insta call?:
    I would be shoving pre, so much dead money to pick up and i think we only get called from 1010+ and id say we would take it down pre 80% of the time as people hate calling off shoves in DYM's even if he shows up with jj/qq/kk you aint in bad shape i think the reward of shoving outweights the risk here.....
    Posted by jordz16
    5 handed and we have 18.5bb, there is no point in taking any risk at this stage of a DYM with A10s. Easy call pre and evaluate on the flop
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited November 2014
    I'd say the reward of shoving and likelihood of getting it through far outweighs the risk. Perhaps that's with my tournament blinkers on though.
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    thanks again Matt, hhy,

    looks like it's a pretty close call for the aipf
    I am leaning towards the check call though.
    would be interesting to see what more dym players think.

  • Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: played badly...but is this an insta call?:
    I'd say the reward of shoving and likelihood of getting it through far outweighs the risk. Perhaps that's with my tournament blinkers on though.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Definitely tempted to shove if this was in an MTT scenario. DYM a no no 
  • stuarty117stuarty117 Member Posts: 1,395
    edited November 2014
    Hi Dev

    I think a shove pre is ok 80% to 90% everyone folds.

    But i think most of the time i just bin it, in a dym i feel it doesnt play too great 4 handed.

    I would rather be calling with a PP trying to set mine.

    Playing A10d any Ace on the board i think we would get into trouble, one of the other 3 may have a better kicker.

    Also we have loads of chips behind if we fold there will be a much better spot.
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited November 2014
    Think a shove pre is probably good.

    As above, it just makes no sense why we would donk bet the flop at all imo (putting aside the sizing issue).

    Few really flawed thought processes from you in this thread, like 'not wanting to lose a game with TPTK'...

    1) How do you know you're gonna lose?
    2) Forget about the finite strength of our hand and think about the relative strength of it. Sometimes TPGK is effectively the nuts, sometimes top 2pr is just never good.

    I'd c/c a reasonable bet size and re-assess on the turn depending on how many called the flop, who it was that bet the flop, what the turn card is etc. Remember, you said if you c/c it's all gonna do in anyway, well that just isn't true. So many people are gonna cbet here with say AK then just completely lock up when called (if they don't improve), likewise someone may cbet JT here and then slow down to keep the pot under control etc. Just cos someone bets the flop doesn't mean they're firing 3 barrels everytime.
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    THANKS  Matt, Stuart, Paul

    unlike you Paul i'm not a professional & making mistakes/not thinking correctly is an everyday thing, as here., but i take your points on board, & from everyone.
    i didn't know i was going to lose, i said i didn't want to lose with tptk, i think.
    I did think about shoving pre-flop but thought i would possibly only get called by better or a strong draw, & knowing i could find better spots later, decided to reluctantly fold.
    post flop again nearly went all-in but bottled if you like for the same reasons above, but was thinking at the time this could be my best chance of getting chips i needed to cash, & even as i folded thought it was possibly a mistake, hence my reason for posting this hand, as i thought it was interesting for a few reasons.

    anyway, i've learnt from it, so that it good.
    c/c next time i think, or even fold p/f Stuart  :)

    thanks all for your advice, appreciated.
  • jordz16jordz16 Member Posts: 2,253
    edited November 2014
    In Response to Re: played badly...but is this an insta call?:
    In Response to Re: played badly...but is this an insta call? : Definitely tempted to shove if this was in an MTT scenario. DYM a no no 
    Posted by Matt237

    surely it gets through far more often in a dym?? i dont play 1000's of dyms a month but i think adding a 1/4 of a stack to yours by making a shove that gets through 90% of the time is great value especially with the ace blocker, getting above average stacks is important in dyms as you want to be able to put pressure on people and you dont wanna get to the point where you are having to get shoves through to stay in, id much rather take a slight risk with sub 20bbs than i would take big risks when i get down to sub 10,... with 2.5/3k chips its so much easier to play than it is with under starting stack.
  • devonfish5devonfish5 Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2014
    it was tempting to shove jordz but players do call quite wide with draws. it's possible y even had 2 pairs or even a set too.
    then there were the other 2 players to consider 
    I think you could make an argument for all scenarios on a hand like this, which is out of the normal, that being to shove allin pre-flop for an all-in on the flop...possibly or the c/c...
    obviously how i played it by betting 100 & opening the betting was a mistake & next time i'll know to check here.


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