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have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO

mrdaviesmrdavies Member Posts: 475
edited December 2014 in The Poker Clinic
TVR84 Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £22.39
pieinsky06 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £19.70
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • 3
  • A
  • A
     
mrdavies Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £25.28
raggy94 Fold        
SJspanky1 Raise   £2.10 £3.00 £24.41
TVR84 Fold        
pieinsky06 Fold        
mrdavies Raise   £6.00 £9.00 £19.28
SJspanky1 Call   £4.50 £13.50 £19.91
Flop
   
  • 4
  • 2
  • K
     
mrdavies Bet   £13.50 £27.00 £5.78
SJspanky1 All-in   £19.91 £46.91 £0.00
mrdavies All-in   £5.78 £52.69 £0.00
SJspanky1 Unmatched bet   £0.63 £52.06 £0.63
mrdavies Show
  • A
  • 3
  • A
  • A
     
SJspanky1 Show
  • 6
  • 8
  • 7
  • 5
     
Turn
   
  • K
     
River
   
  • 2
     
SJspanky1 Win Flush to the King £50.26   £50.89
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Comments

  • SJspanky1SJspanky1 Member Posts: 620
    edited December 2014
    In Response to have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO:
    TVR84 Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £22.39 pieinsky06 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £19.70   Your hole cards A 3 A A       mrdavies Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £25.28 raggy94 Fold         SJspanky1 Raise   £2.10 £3.00 £24.41 TVR84 Fold         pieinsky06 Fold         mrdavies Raise   £6.00 £9.00 £19.28 SJspanky1 Call   £4.50 £13.50 £19.91 Flop     4 2 K       mrdavies Bet   £13.50 £27.00 £5.78 SJspanky1 All-in   £19.91 £46.91 £0.00 mrdavies All-in   £5.78 £52.69 £0.00 SJspanky1 Unmatched bet   £0.63 £52.06 £0.63 mrdavies Show A 3 A A       SJspanky1 Show 6 8 7 5       Turn     K       River     2       SJspanky1 Win Flush to the King £50.26   £50.89
    Posted by mrdavies

    Three Aces is an awful hand in PLO, fold pre.

    FWIW its not a great play by me, just pure stubbornness with my gutshot and flush draw. Unlucky.
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  • jordz16jordz16 Member Posts: 2,253
    edited December 2014
    I dont know too much about Omaha but i imagine you arent any more than a 55% favourite preflop and even less than that on the flop. It seems like its a game of small edges where the only way to have a big edge is to play against players who overplay marginal hands and probably feel like they are further ahead than they actually are.

    Saying that i probably play the hand the same way as you and then have a bit of a moan about it after. 
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  • Matt237Matt237 Member Posts: 1,785
    edited December 2014
    Fold pre easy game :-)
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  • TalonTalon Member Posts: 1,621
    edited December 2014

     Interesting hand indeed.

     And when looking we try to see who played the hand the worst and the result is very close indeed.

     Going all in with a gutshot and a bad flush draw is very very marginal indeed. But choosing to put any money in at all with ludicrously bad aces is just as bad. This is a cash game so such an easy preflop fold.

     Just remember on that board against a set or 2 pairs you are drawing virtually dead. And you are not favourite against a hand like a pair and a flush draw. These hands are a great way to lose lots of money. They may look good but they are just ways of blowing large amounts of money
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,412
    edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO:
     Interesting hand indeed.  And when looking we try to see who played the hand the worst and the result is very close indeed.  Going all in with a gutshot and a bad flush draw is very very marginal indeed. But choosing to put any money in at all with ludicrously bad aces is just as bad. This is a cash game so such an easy preflop fold.  Just remember on that board against a set or 2 pairs you are drawing virtually dead. And you are not favourite against a hand like a pair and a flush draw. These hands are a great way to lose lots of money. They may look good but they are just ways of blowing large amounts of money
    Posted by Talon
    Spanky's shove with FD + gutshot is fine. Most 4-bets here you'd expect to be up against AAxx a lot and his hand has 42.6% against AA on this flop. Given there's already £13.50 in the pot and we only need 37% equity to put the rest of our stack in it would be a mistake to fold. PLO is all about pushing the small edges to make a good profit. Also the fact MrDavies pot flop would make me think he didn't have AA + NFD - since that hand is more happy in betting smaller to induce a shove from a hand that it has dominated. (whereas AA w/o FD is happy to take the pot down now) - Thus we could be nearing 50% equity.

    MrDavies flop shove is even more standard. When you get 25% of your stack in pre-flop with aces it's +ev to shove on nearly most flops. (If you get 1/3 of your stack in a HU pot it's +ev to ship on every flop regardless of board texture) - this flop is as good as you can hope for with Aces. We have a gutshot, FD blocker and the best one pair. We have more than enough equity against Spanky's range to profitably pot/call on this flop. Any other play is a mistake.

    Yes, against a set we are in trouble. In poker you can't fear worst case scenarios: You can only look at ranges and see how you do vs them. It's unlikely AA runs into a set or 2 pair on this board based on PF action. KK is the only hand AA is really afraid of but then if opponent is calling 4-bets with non-premium KK against a range of mostly AA then that opponent is making enough mistakes vs you that it doesn't matter that you GII drawing thin in this instance.

    The only questionable play is the raise PF with three Aces. If it's a loose table I would be binning it pre. It's good to play in position in a HU pot but what you don't want is to open and get 2/3/4 callers and OOP. Having nut blockers is cool but at low stakes and only 100bb deep they're not useful enough. The only other reason I'd open is if there was a couple of aggressive 3-bettors - trapping some dead money and GII HU with Aces is always good. We're flipping vs rundowns but can be in great shape vs Ax DS hands that some people like to play aggressively. Other thing to say is 4-bet size should be pot here.

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  • mrdaviesmrdavies Member Posts: 475
    edited December 2014
    HEARING what everyones saying, im only now playing a bit of omaha I love so to me my AAs were still strong pre.

    onyl bit im finding hard to understand is the call pre I ade it £6.60 I know now in hindsight im overplaying my aces but surely thats a bad call with his hand? shouldnt thta just be a fold and onto the next hand? I can understand once he'd come that far to get it in on flop with pretty much any board, just seems like he dont like to fold it pre when really its a fold? no?
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO:
    HEARING what everyones saying, im only now playing a bit of omaha I love so to me my AAs were still strong pre. onyl bit im finding hard to understand is the call pre I ade it £6.60 I know now in hindsight im overplaying my aces but surely thats a bad call with his hand? shouldnt thta just be a fold and onto the next hand? I can understand once he'd come that far to get it in on flop with pretty much any board, just seems like he dont like to fold it pre when really its a fold? no?
    Posted by mrdavies
    What does it matter how he plays his hand?

    Not sure you have the mental game to cope with variance in the 4 card format!
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  • mrdaviesmrdavies Member Posts: 475
    edited December 2014
    It matters because I am asking the question to understand is that a good call pre in the long run!? 

    I am trying to learn, is that sort of call protiable with those cards. Maybe posting it in the poker clinic isnt the answer.
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  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited December 2014
    Title of the thread says everything! Should be *** people's names out if you're gonna say they are playing their hands 'badly' as well.

    If you're genuinely looking for advice on his starting hand then you should word things differently.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited December 2014
    5678 is a great hand, folding it pre in this hand I'd imagine would be a big mistake? 

    In my experience at low stakes PLO cash, 4bets are almost always AAxx.

    You can peel 4bets for large % of your stack and just go with it post flop on tonnes of boards. 


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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,412
    edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO:
    HEARING what everyones saying, im only now playing a bit of omaha I love so to me my AAs were still strong pre. onyl bit im finding hard to understand is the call pre I ade it £6.60 I know now in hindsight im overplaying my aces but surely thats a bad call with his hand? shouldnt thta just be a fold and onto the next hand? I can understand once he'd come that far to get it in on flop with pretty much any board, just seems like he dont like to fold it pre when really its a fold? no?
    Posted by mrdavies
    You aren't overplaying it when you 4-bet and make it £6.60. This is the only play you can make at this point - just flatting the 3bet is a huge mistake since unless you flop a FD (or an A of which only one is out there) you'll have no idea where you are. You got the ideal situation when you raised with AAA - just folding would make your initial open terrible, so yeah 4-bet is the only move.

    As for opponents call, yeh it's standard. 5678ss HU when you know you are likely up against AA (or big cards) is just a dream situation and easy flat. In fact in omaha in a HU pot it's very rare you should ever fold to a 4bet since so often you are getting good odds + will flop enough post-flop to GII profitably. KKxx is a hand you can 3b/fold if it's likely you're up against AA, as is some weaker Axxx hands or other paired hands but everything else usually can call.
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  • mrdaviesmrdavies Member Posts: 475
    edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO:
    Title of the thread says everything! Should be *** people's names out if you're gonna say they are playing their hands 'badly' as well. If you're genuinely looking for advice on his starting hand then you should word things differently.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    naa everyone else seems to have read it ok and are answering and giving advice so I think the wording is fine. cheera anyway.
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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 171,027
    edited December 2014

    Hi Mr Davies.

    My view is that you should just bin your hand pre-flop.

    For ex NLH players, mucking A-A-A-x pre seems an odd & hard thing to do, but it is absolutely correct, your hand is truly horrible, & very difficult to play down the streets. You are, in effect, drawing to the one outer ace, or the flush. Just throw hands like that away, pre-flop.

    If you start thinking tsat "one pair" hands (which, effectively, yours was) can survive down the streets, you are going to lose a lot of money.  

    You had a really, really, bad hand.

    As to the Villain, we really should not - imo - be concerning ourselves with whether the villain played it badly or well, IT DOES NOT MATTER.  

    All we should worry about is how WE should play OUR hand. Forget him, it is irrelevant.
     
    For the record, I would have made the same pre-flop call with 5-6-7-8, or any run-down that extends both ways. (i.e., forget 2-3-4-5 as it has fewer nut outs).

    When we call pre in Omaha with, say, 5-6-7-8, we KNOW 100% WE ARE BEHIND. Nothing wrong with that, this is PLO, it is a drawing game, NOT a game of pre-flop "made" hands.

    Incidentally, it is always quite amusing to see in the chatbox of a PLO or PLO8 table "nice fishing" or "nice catch". When you see that, you KNOW the villain has no idea how Omaha works.  

    If we were sharing a table, & you TOLD ME, pre-flop, you had Aces, I would still - very happily - call to see a flop.
     
    If you told me you had THREE Aces, I might even re-raise! 

    Very, very, interesting game, PLO, but FORGET all you learned about hand ranges & odds in NLH, this is an entirely different game.
     
    Hope you are enjoying PLO, & you persevere. Nothing in poker has given me greater pleasure than PLO & PLO8, be it 4, 5 or 6 cards.      
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  • JimRiddle7JimRiddle7 Member Posts: 142
    edited December 2014

    Again F_Ivanovic gives some brilliant replies and info..

    I think what Mr White is trying to say, is that his opponent called off 120 big blinds looking for a 3..

    he wouldnt of known his flush draw was good, especially as Mr White held the nut flush blocker..

    Tikay, i know PLO is a drawing game,  but surely you only draw when it is cheap enough to do so..

    I would not be calling off £25 looking for a 3..

    Even though AAA is not a great drawing hand, Mr White was way ahead when the money went in... and i guess he was looking for a fold, which he should of got imo..

    If the river was a 2 of diamonds, Mr White wins a huge pot..

    To go all in looking for a 3 is pure gambling..

    now i know poker is a gambling game, but when everyone is calling off their stacks with draws, it runs more like bingo..
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,412
    edited December 2014
    Yes, AAA is a bad hand but it is still a favourite against 99%+ hands. It's a v small underdog vs 5678 up to JT98 double suited hands but a fave vs everything else in a HU pot. Yes it should be folded pre but that's because it plays badly/terrible post-flop not because it has an equity disadvantage. 

    Going back to the flop call from villain in response to Jim - he's not just calling for a 3 though. His flush draw will be good quite often and a lot of turn cards could give him a pair and/or an extra straight draw out. Normally calling with just 8 high and a gutshot plus a terrible FD would be a terrible play but in a HU pot when you've already invested a large % of your stack you often only need to connect to the flop in some way or other for GII to be profitable.
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  • JimRiddle7JimRiddle7 Member Posts: 142
    edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO:
    Yes, AAA is a bad hand but it is still a favourite against 99%+ hands. It's a v small underdog vs 5678 up to JT98 double suited hands but a fave vs everything else in a HU pot. Yes it should be folded pre but that's because it plays badly/terrible post-flop not because it has an equity disadvantage.  Going back to the flop call from villain in response to Jim - he's not just calling for a 3 though. His flush draw will be good quite often and a lot of turn cards could give him a pair and/or an extra straight draw out. Normally calling with just 8 high and a gutshot plus a terrible FD would be a terrible play but in a HU pot when you've already invested a large % of your stack you often only need to connect to the flop in some way or other for GII to be profitable.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    Yep, that all makes perfect sense, its just the monetary value of the flop bet..  £13 to see the turn, i think i would be folding here, even with the weak flush draw..

    the nut flush draw would be different, and i would call with a suited A of spades only..
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  • SJspanky1SJspanky1 Member Posts: 620
    edited December 2014
    Here's a similar hand I just played. I'm jamming here again pretty sure I'm up against Aces. I appreciate I'm not always going to be getting there versus the rockets but should I consider the fold with plenty of people left behind to act. Basically does my hand ever have enough potential in a multi-way pot pre-flop??..i'm thinking I should only be playing it double suited really...over to you Ivan and Talon ;)
    SJspanky1 Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £19.90
    conall332 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £52.07
      Your hole cards
    • 8
    • 9
    • 7
    • 6
    		     
    pixie919 Fold        
    GAMBOLERO Call   £0.20 £0.50 £38.25
    F_Ivanovic Raise   £0.80 £1.30 £19.20
    raggy94 Call   £0.80 £2.10 £48.43
    SJspanky1 Raise   £2.10 £4.20 £17.80
    conall332 Call   £2.00 £6.20 £50.07
    GAMBOLERO Call   £2.00 £8.20 £36.25
    F_Ivanovic Call   £1.40 £9.60 £17.80
    raggy94 Raise   £12.40 £22.00 £36.03
    SJspanky1 All-in   £17.80 £39.80 £0.00
    conall332 Fold        
    GAMBOLERO Fold        
    F_Ivanovic Fold        
    raggy94 Call   £6.80 £46.60 £29.23
    SJspanky1 Show
    • 8
    • 9
    • 7
    • 6
    		     
    raggy94 Show
    • A
    • A
    • 5
    • 3
    		     
    Flop
       
    • 8
    • 4
    • 4
    		     
    Turn
       
    • J
    		     
    River
       
    • 5
    		     
    SJspanky1 Win Flush to the 9 £44.80   £44.80
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  • dundeejohndundeejohn Member Posts: 3
    edited December 2014
    just unlucky m8.
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  • JimRiddle7JimRiddle7 Member Posts: 142
    edited December 2014
    In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO:
    just unlucky m8.
    Posted by dundeejohn
    Lol, he wasnt unlucky he won the pot...

    But why oh why oh why did you reraise pre flop and re-open the betting??

    you managed to win this one, but as Tikay keeps saying PLO is a drawing game..

    i dont think ANY hand in PLO has enough equity to go all in pre-flop..

    so you have 6789..   what if your opponent has 789 10 ??
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  • JimRiddle7JimRiddle7 Member Posts: 142
    edited December 2014

    Ivan.. Tikay..  i really dont understand this..  why would you go all in with 6789..

    what if your opponent had AA J 10 double suited with spades...?
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