Ivan.. Tikay.. i really dont understand this.. why would you go all in with 6789.. what if your opponent had AA J 10 double suited with spades...? Posted by JimRiddle7
I would not.
My "analysis", such as it was, was that I would call to take a flop, & then re-assess. My view was, as I wrote....
".....If we were sharing a table, & you TOLD ME, pre-flop, you had Aces, I would still - very happily - call to see a flop....."
I would suggest that is the standard line with mid run downs, it is certainly mine.
Personally, I'd never go all-in pre with that sort of hand.
In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO : Lol, he wasnt unlucky he won the pot... But why oh why oh why did you reraise pre flop and re-open the betting?? you managed to win this one, but as Tikay keeps saying PLO is a drawing game.. i dont think ANY hand in PLO has enough equity to go all in pre-flop.. so you have 6789.. what if your opponent has 789 10 ?? Posted by JimRiddle7
I'm not sure I agree with that, but, generally, I prefer to see a flop with most hands.
With good aces (DS with all Broadway cards) we can be as good as a 2/1 favourite (67% v 33%), & even though I'm generally a nit, & way too cautious, I think I'd happily get it in pre with that. There is also a good chance that we are dominating our opponent who most probably has Broadway cards, too.
That apart, assuming deep stacks, no, there are not many hands I want to get the lot in pre with.
Again F_Ivanovic gives some brilliant replies and info.. I think what Mr White is trying to say, is that his opponent called off 120 big blinds looking for a 3.. he wouldnt of known his flush draw was good, especially as Mr White held the nut flush blocker.. Tikay, i know PLO is a drawing game, but surely you only draw when it is cheap enough to do so.. I would not be calling off £25 looking for a 3.. Even though AAA is not a great drawing hand, Mr White was way ahead when the money went in... and i guess he was looking for a fold, which he should of got imo.. If the river was a 2 of diamonds, Mr White wins a huge pot.. To go all in looking for a 3 is pure gambling.. now i know poker is a gambling game, but when everyone is calling off their stacks with draws, it runs more like bingo.. Posted by JimRiddle7
Nor would I, & I never suggested I would. I suggested it was fine to take a flop, I never commented on later streets.
My key point to the OP is that he should not concern himself with how well or badly the Villain played his hand - that is completely irrelevant to our thinking.
The OP sought some advice, & I tried to assist, but I don't think saying "the other guy played it bad" helps the OP at all. We need to concentrate on our own play.
It remains my view that whilst we know we are likely (but NOT guaranteed) to be mathematical favourite (but only by a smidge) PRE-FLOP with A-A-A-x, it is a hand that is extremely difficult to improve, or play down the streets. For that reason, personally, I bin it pre-flop.
There can be a case for seeing the flop texture, but I'd not proceed with great care from there, & have to yield to betting pressure if my hand does not improve. It's unlikely one pair (A-A) is good if the betting gets heavy.
It boils down to opening ranges. A-A-A-x should not be in our range, imo.
PS - If we have, say, A-A-A-K (No suits) & we get called by 10-9-8-7 (DS) we are not even favourite, the run-down is 53% v our 47%.
I'm a bit old school with PLO & PLO8, but generally I was trying to assist the OP with basic strategy. "Don't go to war with A-A-A-x".
In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO : Lol, he wasnt unlucky he won the pot... But why oh why oh why did you reraise pre flop and re-open the betting?? you managed to win this one, but as Tikay keeps saying PLO is a drawing game.. i dont think ANY hand in PLO has enough equity to go all in pre-flop.. so you have 6789.. what if your opponent has 789 10 ?? Posted by JimRiddle7
Generally if you have a suited or DS rundown you do just want to call any pre-flop raise rather than go all in. However, in this situation with 2 other callers in a pot there is potential "dead money" in the pot. If Spanky shoves and just raggy calls then Spanky only needs 38.2% equity for his play to be breakeven and against AA it has 41%, so it's a slight +ev play. Plus it has the added benefit of showing to your opponents you can have more than just AAxx and might allow you to get better action in future if you do
If Spanky just calls then it potentially invites me and GAMBEROLO into the pot. If one (or both) of us enter the pot too it's likely that Spanky's FD is unlikely to be good and so is relying solely on connecting with the flop. With 6789 that will happen quite often though and it's also quite easy to make the correct decision post flop. It's likely to have 26% equity 4 way against a range of AA, 15% and 20% so caling instead of shoving may be slightly better but shoving definitely isn't a mistake.
As for your question about what if your opponent has 789T.... well then, we'll only have 35% vs that hand and not in great shape. But we can play this game with anything....in holdem you can go in with KK and think "what if my opponent has AA" - but that's not only unlikely but also there are other hands that villain can GII with that are behind KK. It's v unlikely to be up against exactly 789T or similar slightly higher rundowns. We could also be up against a lower rundown which we dominate.
In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO : Nor would I, & I never suggested I would. I suggested it was fine to take a flop, I never commented on later streets. My key point to the OP is that he should not concern himself with how well or badly the Villain played his hand - that is completely irrelevant to our thinking. The OP sought some advice, & I tried to assist, but I don't think saying "the other guy played it bad" helps the OP at all. We need to concentrate on our own play. It remains my view that whilst we know we are likely (but NOT guaranteed) to be mathematical favourite (but only by a smidge) PRE-FLOP with A-A-A-x, it is a hand that is extremely difficult to improve, or play down the streets. For that reason, personally, I bin it pre-flop. There can be a case for seeing the flop texture, but I'd not proceed with great care from there, & have to yield to betting pressure if my hand does not improve. It's unlikely one pair (A-A) is good if the betting gets heavy. It boils down to opening ranges. A-A-A-x should not be in our range, imo. PS - If we have, say, A-A-A-K (No suits) & we get called by 10-9-8-7 (DS) we are not even favourite, the run-down is 53% v our 47%. I'm a bit old school with PLO & PLO8, but generally I was trying to assist the OP with basic strategy. "Don't go to war with A-A-A-x". Posted by Tikay10
I point I tried to make, which was swatted away by OP.
In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO : Generally if you have a suited or DS rundown you do just want to call any pre-flop raise rather than go all in. However, in this situation with 2 other callers in a pot there is potential "dead money" in the pot. If Spanky shoves and just raggy calls then Spanky only needs 38.2% equity for his play to be breakeven and against AA it has 41%, so it's a slight +ev play. Plus it has the added benefit of showing to your opponents you can have more than just AAxx and might allow you to get better action in future if you do If Spanky just calls then it potentially invites me and GAMBEROLO into the pot. If one (or both) of us enter the pot too it's likely that Spanky's FD is unlikely to be good and so is relying solely on connecting with the flop. With 6789 that will happen quite often though and it's also quite easy to make the correct decision post flop. It's likely to have 26% equity 4 way against a range of AA, 15% and 20% so caling instead of shoving may be slightly better but shoving definitely isn't a mistake. As for your question about what if your opponent has 789T.... well then, we'll only have 35% vs that hand and not in great shape. But we can play this game with anything....in holdem you can go in with KK and think "what if my opponent has AA" - but that's not only unlikely but also there are other hands that villain can GII with that are behind KK. It's v unlikely to be up against exactly 789T or similar slightly higher rundowns. We could also be up against a lower rundown which we dominate. Posted by F_Ivanovic
Thanks Ivan. You have an eloquent way of expressing the thought processes behind my decisions in these hands. Certainly I felt I had to shove to try and push the other players out of the pot then take my chances with a hand that can play well versus AAxx. I'll admit though that I am pretty much guessing at my equity %'s. What tool do you use for PLO %??
In Response to Re: have I played Aces too aggressively here? from what I can see he has played it badly. IMO : I point I tried to make, which was swatted away by OP. Posted by hhyftrftdr
The OP got his money in with the best hand.. the villian made a terrible call and sucked out..
It does matter how villian played the hand, because now TIKAY is telling the OP to fold AAA preflop...
how rediculous... what, just incase the other guy makes a flush..
Comments
My "analysis", such as it was, was that I would call to take a flop, & then re-assess. My view was, as I wrote....
".....If we were sharing a table, & you TOLD ME, pre-flop, you had Aces, I would still - very happily - call to see a flop....."
I would suggest that is the standard line with mid run downs, it is certainly mine.
Personally, I'd never go all-in pre with that sort of hand.
With good aces (DS with all Broadway cards) we can be as good as a 2/1 favourite (67% v 33%), & even though I'm generally a nit, & way too cautious, I think I'd happily get it in pre with that. There is also a good chance that we are dominating our opponent who most probably has Broadway cards, too.
That apart, assuming deep stacks, no, there are not many hands I want to get the lot in pre with.
My key point to the OP is that he should not concern himself with how well or badly the Villain played his hand - that is completely irrelevant to our thinking.
The OP sought some advice, & I tried to assist, but I don't think saying "the other guy played it bad" helps the OP at all. We need to concentrate on our own play.
It remains my view that whilst we know we are likely (but NOT guaranteed) to be mathematical favourite (but only by a smidge) PRE-FLOP with A-A-A-x, it is a hand that is extremely difficult to improve, or play down the streets. For that reason, personally, I bin it pre-flop.
There can be a case for seeing the flop texture, but I'd not proceed with great care from there, & have to yield to betting pressure if my hand does not improve. It's unlikely one pair (A-A) is good if the betting gets heavy.
It boils down to opening ranges. A-A-A-x should not be in our range, imo.
PS - If we have, say, A-A-A-K (No suits) & we get called by 10-9-8-7 (DS) we are not even favourite, the run-down is 53% v our 47%.
I'm a bit old school with PLO & PLO8, but generally I was trying to assist the OP with basic strategy. "Don't go to war with A-A-A-x".
If Spanky just calls then it potentially invites me and GAMBEROLO into the pot. If one (or both) of us enter the pot too it's likely that Spanky's FD is unlikely to be good and so is relying solely on connecting with the flop. With 6789 that will happen quite often though and it's also quite easy to make the correct decision post flop. It's likely to have 26% equity 4 way against a range of AA, 15% and 20% so caling instead of shoving may be slightly better but shoving definitely isn't a mistake.
As for your question about what if your opponent has 789T.... well then, we'll only have 35% vs that hand and not in great shape. But we can play this game with anything....in holdem you can go in with KK and think "what if my opponent has AA" - but that's not only unlikely but also there are other hands that villain can GII with that are behind KK. It's v unlikely to be up against exactly 789T or similar slightly higher rundowns. We could also be up against a lower rundown which we dominate.
It does matter how villian played the hand, because now TIKAY is telling the OP to fold AAA preflop...
how rediculous... what, just incase the other guy makes a flush..
What if you fold AAA and the flop comes 222??