Is this a call or fold with the 88?

waller02

DYM

I'm not involved in the hand but I was discussing it with the player with 88 and we were both unsure about whether or not it was a call. He perhaps thought he should have folded and I was leaning towards the call.......we both thought it was close! Is this close? Is it a fold or a call??

I'm asking because I'm starting to play a few dyms again this month and spots like these are quite common. If this is a fold then what hands should we be calling with and vice versa. BTW my stack is 2.3k ish iirc

rekop1	Small blind		150.00	150.00	5227.50
a	Big blind		300.00	450.00	2300.00
	Your hole cards	3 9
waller02	Fold
b	All-in		1480.00	1930.00	0.00
rekop1	Fold
a	Call		1180.00	3110.00	1120.00
a	Show	8 8
b	Show	9 A
Flop
		3 10 7
Turn
		K
River
		10
b	Win	Flush to the Ace	3110.00		3110.00

stuarty117

Hi Waller

The reason why i would call is that this was my chance to cash.

I still have 1100 behind so this is what i call a semi gamble, You can still shove 1100 and get a double up and still cash

Also player B is getting desperate and could be shoving anything at all, even a smaller PP. It is tight. But blinds getting quite high and sometimes gotta go with it. Also notes help

Also blinds very high so may not get a better chance to cash.

I wonder who Player A is he looks a handsome chap.

F_Ivanovic

I don't play DYM's much at all but yeah I would call here pretty quickly with the 88 unless I had some read that player b was really tight (where we might be up against a range of 77+, A8+, KQ+) - vs that 88 has 42%. But most players are shoving smaller pairs too as well as QJ, KT+

waller02

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

Hi Waller The reason why i would call is that this was my chance to cash. I still have 1100 behind so this is what i call a semi gamble, You can still shove 1100 and get a double up and still cash Also player B is getting desperate and could be shoving anything at all, even a smaller PP. It is tight. But blinds getting quite high and sometimes gotta go with it. Also notes help Also blinds very high so may not get a better chance to cash. I wonder who Player A is he looks a handsome chap.
Posted by stuarty117

So you're saying the opposite to what you said in game :P You did say you should have folded but I guess that was being results orientated at the time.

I was unsure but leaning towards the call, I just get these spots a lot and call and lose but I guess you gotta gamble here.

I posted the hand because most of the time these are the decisions that win or lose the dym and I often make the wrong decision lol

stuarty117

Hi Waller

Yea at the time i said it was very tight and perhaps wrong. 

I had a chat to one of the best DYM players on here. I was shortie around 1600 left and had 77 small blind shove and i snap called. He said maybe it was incorrect because i was probably flipping. SB had JQ and hit a J of something.

I still think its tight but sometimes you have to

Looking back now i think it was correct as i still had 1100 behind so it gave me a 2nd chance

And i still cashed

waller02

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

Hi Waller Yea at the time i said it was very tight and perhaps wrong.  I had a chat to one of the best DYM players on here. I was shortie around 1600 left and had 77 small blind shove and i snap called. He said maybe it was incorrect because i was probably flipping. SB had JQ and hit a J of something. I still think its tight but sometimes you have to Looking back now i think it was correct as i still had 1100 behind so it gave me a 2nd chance And i still cashed
Posted by stuarty117

I agree mate......Given the stack sizes I guess it's one of those times you hate the call but have to make it.

devonfish5

I think the call is fine with 1100 chips left to play with.

always take any chance to knock out players on the bubble when you can.

i've made the mistake of not calling in similar spots to this & regretted it.

yes we are probably flipping but player b could have almost any 2 cards.

even if we only win 50% here we still can recover from 1100 chips & cash as player a did

so i think it's a deffo call, especially at the higher £5 level where it gets even looser on the bubble with players going all-in i mean.

you could call here with 22 even kq kj q 10 i think as you are never that far behind with almost any 2 maybe even in front

if we didn't have the 1100 chips left to play with, it's a fold i think with 88 

better to find a better spot being the aggressor ourself giving us 2 chances 2 win

nb; I've learnt that in bubble play,(especially since moving up to the £5 level),  it doesn't matter so much about the cards but it's all about aggression & where & when to use it.

when we get it in good we don't win all the time

when we get it in bad we don't lose all the time

so never be afraid to get it in first giving us those 2 chances of winning...

players fold much more than they call, & with good reason..they don't want to lose.

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88? : I agree mate......Given the stack sizes I guess it's one of those times you hate the call but have to make it.
Posted by waller02

I never hate a call to knock someone out this is our chance to cash...

given the stack sizes it makes sense to call, imo.

we play to make as many bubbles as we can with a playable stack, then we have to strike at every chance we get, like we have here.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

I think the call is fine with 1100 chips left to play with. always take any chance to knock out players on the bubble when you can. i've made the mistake of not calling in similar spots to this & regretted it. yes we are probably flipping but player b could have almost any 2 cards. even if we only win 50% here we still can recover from 1100 chips & cash as player a did so i think it's a deffo call, especially at the higher £5 level where it gets even looser on the bubble with players going all-in i mean. you could call here with 22 even kq kj q 10 i think as you are never that far behind with almost any 2 maybe even in front if we didn't have the 1100 chips left to play with, it's a fold i think with 88  better to find a better spot being the aggressor ourself giving us 2 chances 2 win nb; I've learnt that in bubble play,(especially since moving up to the £5 level),  it doesn't matter so much about the cards but it's all about aggression & where & when to use it. when we get it in good we don't win all the time when we get it in bad we don't lose all the time so never be afraid to get it in first giving us those 2 chances of winning... players fold much more than they call, which is 1/2 the battle of winning.
Posted by devonfish5

22 is a snap fold in this spot no?

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88? : 22 is a snap fold in this spot no?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

22 is the same as 88 if we are putting player on any 2 cards, so makes very little difference

the only hands we beat with 88 compared to 22 are 22-77, 6 hands, & it's much more likely opponent doesn't have any of these 6 than he does.

we are essentially gambling that player has 2 overs to our pair... either way.

this is an example of why the bubble is so complex & yet so simple at the same time, & a part of the game that many players struggle with.

if you are prepared to call here with 88 then why not call with 22 is what I am saying.

would I? it's 50/50 & player dependant & comes down to my notes, as always, but let's put it this way...I've made worse calls, ha ha

it also gives some balance & unpredictability to your game by making these calls/plays, certainly every now & again & shows you don't always fold in these spots, which puts uncertainty into your opponents minds hopefully, which I think is a good thing, & again all adds to your game when playing what is arguably the most important part of the game..the bubble, & where we need to find as many small edges as possible over our opponents.

TeddyBloat

88 dominates A2-A8, K2-K8, Q2-Q8, J2, J8, T2-T8,, 92-98, 8x, all 7x, 6x, 4x, 5x, 3x, 2x and 22-77.

22 dominates only 2x. 

And 22 is not a  favorite against off-suit one gappers like 97o, or suited 4 gappers like 95s and is only a 51% fave v off suit 3 gappers like 96o

Suited one gappers like 97s are decent  faves v 22 and suited connectors like 67s are big faves v 22.

Saying 22 is the same  as 88 isnt true.its not close

22 v ATC has 50% equity

88 v ATC has 70% equity.

For the reasons mentioned above. 

devonfish5

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

88 dominates A2-A8, K2-K8, Q2-Q8, J2, J8, T2-T8,, 92-98, 8x, all 7x, 6x, 4x, 5x, 3x, 2x and 22-77. 22 dominates only 2x.  And 22 is not a  favorite against off-suit one gappers like 97o, or suited 4 gappers like 95s and is only a 51% fave v off suit 3 gappers like 96o Suited one gappers like 97s are decent  faves v 22 and suited connectors like 67s are big faves v 22. Saying 22 is the same  as 88 isnt true.its not close 22 v ATC has 50% equity 88 v ATC has 70% equity. For the reasons mentioned above. 
Posted by TeddyBloat

cheers Teddy,

ok so there's a 20% difference between the 2

v most shoves here which are likely to be 2 overs 88 plays the same as 22, or should that be 22 plays the same as 88, that was my point.

agree with all your other stats though making the play with either hand is risky, which is why i would only make it with the back up of the 1100 chips to play with.

TeddyBloat

Weighting their range upwards, so removing low Ax, and raggy off suit hands makes it worse for 22 too. There are proportionally more pairs inthat range and they crush 22 more than 88

88 blocks a lot of straight outs makes more 4 card straights and better 4 card flushes and is less often counterfeited

V a9+, k9+, qt+, jt+, t9s, 22-aa

22 has 40% equity

88 has 53% equity.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88? : cheers Teddy, ok so there's a 20% difference between the 2 v most shoves here which are likely to be 2 overs 88 plays the same as 22, or should that be 22 plays the same as 88, that was my point. agree with all your other stats though making the play with either hand is risky, which is why i would only make it with the back up of the 1100 chips to play with.
Posted by devonfish5

What are you talking about? They clearly do not play the same.

Teddy has explained it better than I ever can, but assuming the button is shoving most of his range, 88 can be in decent shape vs any smaller pair, Ax, Kx etc that has just the one over card, medium SC's where both cards are under 88......

22 vs a similar range will never have this luxury of being comfortably ahead of a lot of hands.

I'm astounded that a guy who has played thousands of DYM's thinks 88 and 22 are much the same in this spot on the bubble.

Edit; they only play the same if you think button can literally have just broadway cards. Not sure we could narrow them down to just that!

devonfish5

I'm not getting in to this with you hhy..

it's all about risk & reward.

most shoves here are likely to be v 2 overs a lot of the time, as I've already said, so 88 & 22 do play the same then.

the reward being we cash 50% of the time,the times we lose we still have 1100 chips to play with & still have every chance of cashing.

yes we are in bad shape v any pairs but that's the risk we are taking here, we aren't going to be simply given the game.

the reward is a profit of £4.50 right now, the loss & risk is possibly losing £5.50, at some point later in the game.

anyway, I'm glad I've astounded you, just shows we are on 2 completely different planets here.

As a winning dym player I rest my case.

hhyftrftdr

Well no, they don't play the same, as Teddy highlights above....even vs a tighter range 88 has 53% vs 40% for 22.

Why are they only shoving 2 overcards to 88? It's an unopened spot on the button with 5bb, shoving into stack sizes in the blinds that can't really call off light. You really don't think the button is ever shoving A6 here, or 79s, or K6s....

You completely contradict yourself as well. '' I've learnt that in bubble play,(especially since moving up to the £5 level),  it doesn't matter so much about the cards but it's all about aggression & where & when to use it''.

IMO if you believe what you say in that sentence, you should know that the button is probably shoving a much broader range than simply overcards to 88.

Yes you're a winning DYM player, that can't be in question, but some stuff you come out with baffles me.

waller02

So where do we draw the line then? If 22 is a fold and 88 is a call what are the worst cards we can/should call with?

You can't argue with the stats there dev, teddy has made it pretty clear that 22 is in worse shape than 88 against most shoving ranges.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

I'm not getting in to this with you hhy.. it's all about risk & reward. most shoves here are likely to be v 2 overs a lot of the time, as I've already said, so 88 & 22 do play the same then. the reward being we cash 50% of the time,the times we lose we still have 1100 chips to play with & still have every chance of cashing. yes we are in bad shape v any pairs but that's the risk we are taking here, we aren't going to be simply given the game. the reward is a profit of £4.50 right now, the loss & risk is possibly losing £5.50, at some point later in the game. anyway, I'm glad I've astounded you, just shows we are on 2 completely different planets here. As a winning dym player I rest my case.
Posted by devonfish5

And whats all this about? This is a strategy section, why would you not want to discuss the topic at hand? 

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Is this a call or fold with the 88?:

So where do we draw the line then? If 22 is a fold and 88 is a call what are the worst cards we can/should call with? You can't argue with the stats there dev, teddy has made it pretty clear that 22 is in worse shape than 88 against most shoving ranges.
Posted by waller02

I would guess 66 is probably right at the bottom of the calling range....maybe 55, maybe...

But I don't play DYM's much so what do I know?

TeddyBloat

Dev even taking pocket pairs out of the equation, 88 will fare better v 2overs to the 8 than 22 (blocks straights, a significant source of equity against small pockets, less likely to be counterfeited etc)

Dont get defensive, dev. It may be that calling 22 is correct v his shoving range, but it would not be because 22 plays the same as 88 v most ranges. As it clearly doesnt.

You are a winning reg, but that doesnt mean you cant increase edge. You know more today about how hands interact with ranges than you did yesterday - knowledge is power. Take the extra ev now at your desposal.

As for calling ranges, the answer wont lie in simple equity calculations. ICM will dominate the calculation. Flipping here gifts equity to all the other players at the table. You take ALL the risk, but share the reward with the rest of the table. Waller and rekop1 were loving life when the cards were turned over

stuarty117

As i said before a very good dym reg told me on another hand were i called with 77 that i was wrong to do so.

I dunno thats why i think its very tight. Would love to know what Jac35 thinks.

I just think in my experience people shove with any A at this stage, so 88 is very strong i was just unlucky to be against two overs. I thought i might have been up against A5, A4 or something like that.

The lower PPs can also get counterfeited 

So 22 definitly doesnt play the same as 88