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So many 'shove-monkeys'...?

swanstuswanstu Member Posts: 261
edited August 2015 in Poker Chat

Is Sky the biggest for people just shoving their stack in (tourny, not cash I mean)?

Seems like so many sng players just want to push every hand, or many hands.

Why not play Roulette I wonder if that's how you play??

I know people will say, just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....
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  • davelufcdavelufc Member Posts: 1,375
    edited August 2015
    Just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....
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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 172,666
    edited August 2015
    In Response to So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    Is Sky the biggest for people just shoving their stack in (tourny, not cash I mean)? Seems like so many sng players just want to push every hand, or many hands. Why not play Roulette I wonder if that's how you play?? I know people will say, just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....
    Posted by swanstu
    Well J-7 man wins that coup one time in three, & A-K man wins it two times in three.
     
    Quite happy to lose 1 in 3 if I can win 2 in 3.

    Embrace the maths, it is our friend.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2015
    In Response to So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    Is Sky the biggest for people just shoving their stack in (tourny, not cash I mean)? Seems like so many sng players just want to push every hand, or many hands. Why not play Roulette I wonder if that's how you play?? I know people will say, just get a good hand and call, then your AK gets ragged by the J7 they shoved with....
    Posted by swanstu
    Think of all the times they win the blinds when you dont have AK.

    Add in the times they outdraw you when you do happen to have AK.

    Starts to look like it may be a profitable way to play!
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  • rainman397rainman397 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited August 2015
    Good afternoon Swanstu.
    Try the £2.20 @2.20 deepstack no monkeys allowed.
    All the best.
    Rainman397.
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  • swanstuswanstu Member Posts: 261
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Well J-7 man wins that coup one time in three, & A-K man wins it two times in three.   Quite happy to lose 1 in 3 if I can win 2 in 3. Embrace the maths, it is our friend.
    Posted by Tikay10


    Yes, but by playing and calling these monster shoves you massively increase the luck factor/variance in your game, something I try to reduce rather than increase.

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  • swanstuswanstu Member Posts: 261
    edited August 2015

    Thanks Rainman - yep, I agree that part of this is the format/stakes played, and maybe I should just be moving away from the HU games and more for the deepstacks. 
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  • BenchmarkBenchmark Member Posts: 297
    edited August 2015
    The shove-monkeys will lose out over time. It really is difficult to watch them steal your blinds, without you making a poor call. All you can do it play your poker. Most of them shove once too often anyway.

    I way playing a game this afternoon, in which I put myself in a really poor chip position early on. The only strategy I had left was to shove each time the aggressive players had folded and steal the blinds. I had to do it with raggy kings, and queens with half decent kickers. The guy to my left was bleeding chips and in the end called my bluff with his own shove. That time, I had KK...
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  • stokefcstokefc Member Posts: 7,889
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    The shove-monkeys will lose out over time. It really is difficult to watch them steal your blinds, without you making a poor call. All you can do it play your poker. Most of them shove once too often anyway. I way playing a game this afternoon, in which I put myself in a really poor chip position early on. The only strategy I had left was to shove each time the aggressive players had folded and steal the blinds. I had to do it with raggy kings, and queens with half decent kickers. The guy to my left was bleeding chips and in the end called my bluff with his own shove. That time, I had KK...
    Posted by Benchmark
    its a good job it wasn,t qq ;)
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  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 172,666
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Yes, but by playing and calling these monster shoves you massively increase the luck factor/variance in your game, something I try to reduce rather than increase.
    Posted by swanstu
    Quite the opposite.

    If we can get our money in that good every time, we can't lose.
     
    Of course, we don't HAVE to call. We could do what he does & be the shover not the caller. We get better odds if we shove, because our opponents often fold, so that increases our equity.
     
    People think (say) 10-10 v AK is roughly 50-50, but if we jam first, & they fold 50% of the time, that changes the maths completely.        
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  • swanstuswanstu Member Posts: 261
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Quite the opposite. If we can get our money in that good every time, we can't lose.   Of course, we don't HAVE to call. We could do what he does & be the shover not the caller. We get better odds if we shove, because our opponents often fold, so that increases our equity.   People think (say) 10-10 v AK is roughly 50-50, but if we jam first, & they fold 50% of the time, that changes the maths completely.     
    Posted by Tikay10

    But this argument is ignoring that the 'monkeys' will sometimes actually have a hand too. Guess what I mean is that you end up trusting to the entire board etc when you call pre flop. There's very little play involved, just like a RRoullette version on here, and I'd never consider playing those.
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  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited August 2015
    Playing live recently I had a big stack and spotted a player who liked to min raise and see flops. So I would 3 bet large each time to knock him off. He got so upset about this he started to go on and on about how bad a player I was to the extent the dealer had to call the floor to give him a warning. 

    PS we chopped it heads up

    PPS day 2 of a superstack tournament and I hear someone on a nearby table complaining about another player. 

    I'm not playing anymore. You are disrespecting us by playing hands like J3o. 

    And yes the player being spoken about was my adversary from the other day.

    Everyone can play how they like. It's how you deal with it that counts, and this "pro player" in the superstack clearly didn't understand that. 
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  • BenchmarkBenchmark Member Posts: 297
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : its a good job it wasn,t qq ;)
    Posted by stokefc
    I was in a game on Friday, I think. I managed to beat a guy holding QQ with JJ. Then later in the same game, my QQ held up against another JJ. Natch, all my other premium hands this weekend have got blasted, that's why I'm crying in my beer.
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  • swanstuswanstu Member Posts: 261
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    Playing live recently I had a big stack and spotted a player who liked to min raise and see flops. So I would 3 bet large each time to knock him off. He got so upset about this he started to go on and on about how bad a player I was to the extent the dealer had to call the floor to give him a warning.  PS we chopped it heads up PPS day 2 of a superstack tournament and I hear someone on a nearby table complaining about another player.  I'm not playing anymore. You are disrespecting us by playing hands like J3o.  And yes the player being spoken about was my adversary from the other day. Everyone can play how they like. It's how you deal with it that counts, and this "pro player" in the superstack clearly didn't understand that. 
    Posted by GELDY

    Of course they can play how they like - but when you get all in after all in pre flop, then why do they bother and not just go and play bingo/RR etc...

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  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Of course they can play how they like - but when you get all in after all in pre flop, then why do they bother and not just go and play bingo/RR etc...
    Posted by swanstu
    but we don't want them to
    We love players like this
    Sure it's higher variance having them on your table 
    But it's higher eV also

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  • Jac35Jac35 Member Posts: 6,492
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : but we don't want them to We love players like this Sure it's higher variance having them on your table  But it's higher eV also
    Posted by GELDY
    Why did you chop then?
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  • swanstuswanstu Member Posts: 261
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : but we don't want them to We love players like this Sure it's higher variance having them on your table  But it's higher eV also
    Posted by GELDY

    High variance is fine is you have a HUGE bank to play with, but awful if not.

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  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...? : Why did you chop then?
    Posted by Jac35
    He had more chips than me. 
    I offered the chop and he accepted. 
    More then one way to skin a monkey. 

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  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited August 2015
    Skin a cat
    Fish
    Whatever

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  • FeelGroggyFeelGroggy Member Posts: 843
    edited August 2015
    You'll be surprised how wide you should be shoving. Look at some push or fold charts and it'll blow your mind. 
    For example on 10bb in the small blind it advocates open shoving this range: 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J3s+ J8o+ T4s+ T8o+ 95s+ 97o+ 85s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 64s+ 53s+

    By shoving this range you are unexploitable, if your opponent calls too loose your making money and if he calls too tight then your making money as he folds too often and when he calls you can still win. Remember hands like 76s and 53s have 40-41% v AK and around 20% against a higher pocket pair. I would conjecture that these 'shove monkeys' are correct to jam J7o and will be making profit by shoving correctly. Factor in the chance of a bounty when called and you could theoretically jam a bit wider.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2015
    In Response to Re: So many 'shove-monkeys'...?:
    You'll be surprised how wide you should be shoving. Look at some push or fold charts and it'll blow your mind.  For example on 10bb in the small blind it advocates open shoving this range:  22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J3s+ J8o+ T4s+ T8o+ 95s+ 97o+ 85s+ 87o 74s+ 76o 64s+ 53s+ By shoving this range you are unexploitable, if your opponent calls too loose your making money and if he calls too tight then your making money as he folds too often and when he calls you can still win. Remember hands like 76s and 53s have 40-41% v AK and around 20% against a higher pocket pair. I would conjecture that these 'shove monkeys' are correct to jam J7o and will be making profit by shoving correctly. Factor in the chance of a bounty when called and you could theoretically jam a bit wider.
    Posted by FeelGroggy
    +1.

    Also the opening poster suggests this may be a 'thing' that happens more on sky than elsewhere when in fact the 'shove monkeys' are less effective here due to the lack of antes. 

    They win less chips when their shove gets through, and thereofore should in theory not shove as often. 

    Elsewhere the incentive to win the pot is much higher as there are more chips in the middle pre flop to win. 

    So in theory players will be shoving alot less on skypoker than they will be on other online poker sites and in live tournaments. 
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