HUDs - a compromise?

F_Ivanovic

OK, so I've been against HUD's for a long time and it's one of the reasons I enjoy playing solely on Sky. However, being a frequent browser of another popular forum I have seen first hand on several occasions how regular players have worked together to detect things like bots and collusion simply by analysing in detail the HUD stats of certain suspicous players. 

On a recent thread in Sky it was brought up by another user how players being vigilant can help in the matter of suspected collusion or multi-accounting - since a site only has so much resources to detect when players are colluding/multi-accounting.

Now, despite this I still don't think I would like to see HUD's in their current form implemented on Sky; That is, you can see the stats of the people you are playing against on the table. However, what I don't think would be *as bad* is being able to collect the data of players stats that you play against into an external database which couldn't be running at the same time that you have the Skypoker DL up (or indeed the browser) - I know the former is possible as I believe the big site has a way of detecting if you are using certain software but I don't know if the latter is possible - which may be a flaw in my idea.

This will make it possible to be able to analyse stats of players and see if any suspicous patterns occur within players that you suspect of multi-accounting or it could also detect potential bots (AFAIK Skypoker doesn't have a bot problem, but you never know.)

Now, this will add a new dimension to reg battles. You can study and analyse specific regs you may have trouble with; so it would change the dynamic of how Skypoker has worked. From a personal perspective I'd be at a disadvantage because I'm sure some of the REG's on here have probably used HUD's before on other sites and I'd have to learn something from new; but I don't think I'd be at a major disadvantage due to the small sky player REG base - the reads you gain playing someone frequently that you know are far more valuable than any HUD data.

The great thing with this idea is that if you are a low stakes REC you will be at no disadvantage for not using a HUD. REG's won't be able to exploit you because their sample size on you will be so small that it will never be something that they look at/remember when looking through their database. The only potential caveat could be with table selection; in that it might be possible to look through lobby and make a note of players names then close it, scan database and find the names which look like they have the most fishy stats and then join their table; however, by the time you have done all of that it's a good chance the table is full with a waiting list anyway if it's a really fishy player.

Now, I mention that for a low stakes REC it isn't a problem. However, there are some recreationals that frequently play at higher stake games. Which means the high stake REGs could then analyse the REC's play based on the stats they have from them. However, I'm unconvinced this would be a problem either. REC's have sporadic tendancies and don't do things that make sense. Tilt is one such example. A HUD can't really analyse and interperet such things properly whereas simply being at a table with them and getting a feeling for how they are currently playing is far more useful than anything you've memorised from their stats in your database. As such I don't think the external HUD will make a high stakes REC lose money any faster than they do already.

Unfortunately whilst I think this might be a good idea I can't see Sky introducing it any time soon because it probably doesn't make any business sense for them in the short term. But, I thought I'd put it out there for discussion anyway and it would be nice to know if it would be possible in the long term.

GELDY

REC's have sporadic tendancies and don't do things that make sense

A bit of a generalisation methinks

Although quite accurate in my case

GELDY

Although I think you mean

Do things that don't make sense

stokefc

so basically youd like to be able to use hud fred or some kinda data collecting device?

use huds for me if you like so long as there is a way recs like me know whos using them on table so we can avoid them like the plague,nowt wrong with things as they are,you,re still gonna win long term if you,re a competant player

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

so basically youd like to be able to use hud fred or some kinda data collecting device? use huds for me if you like so long as there is a way recs like me know whos using them on table so we can avoid them like the plague,nowt wrong with things as they are,you,re still gonna win long term if you,re a competant player
Posted by stokefc

Did you read the whole post? Recreational players IMO won't be at a disadvantage with these HUD's - and I gave solid reasons as to why I believe that to be the case. The first being; Sample size will be too small and it makes no sense for a REG to study a recreational player just on the off-chance that in the near future they will be playing at the same table as that recreational. So whilst a player has a HUD, they will not be using it against you anyway. 

Secondly, lets assume that for some reason a REG does decide to study a REC despite it making little sense and finds himself at the same table as them - even then, the advantage a HUD gives is minimal. It could even be in detriment to him if he can't utlize the HUD correctly. You gain way more information from just watching a REC play than analysing HUD stats. Bet-sizing is one such thing that can be a huge source of +ev when watching & playing against a REC that a HUD can't analyse.

F_Ivanovic

@Geldy: I think in that case I was talking about higher stakes REC's - these are bigger gamblers and I think it's more true of these players

stokefc

lets put it this way if you were a rec you wouldn,t mind if people were gathering info on your play even if its pretty useless to them,people who use these kinda gadgets must be pretty savy with most things gadgetry,i dont see the point in having them if you conna use em properly while blokes like me who are abit thick like have to put up with them,no thanks

HaveaA1Day

I just wish Sky would introduce a stakes filter, so I could work out my bb/100.

GaryQQQ

It'll never happen.

For a start it would be super easy to access the database using another device while playing.

Who is going to be prepared to spend a ton of money developing the software and running the database? Sales among the relatively small player pool here would never justify the outlay.

Once the Sky software is tweaked to allow hands to be read by this new HUD read it'll open the door to other software to do exactly the same.

There can't be grey areas. Either HUDs are allowed or they aren't. Sky have made their stance clear and I don't see many people disagreeing with it.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

lets put it this way if you were a rec you wouldn,t mind if people were gathering info on your play even if its pretty useless to them,people who use these kinda gadgets must be pretty savy with most things gadgetry,i dont see the point in having them if you conna use em properly while blokes like me who are abit thick like have to put up with them,no thanks
Posted by stokefc

Sorry I don't understand this post properly. You seem to think that this idea will give REG's an unfair advantage over REG's but haven't offered any reasons as to why this is the case. I've clearly explained why I don't believe that will be the case.

edit: Agree with Havea1day, would be nice for filters on the stakes!

Itsover4u

massive no .... I hate being forced into a situation where I have to use a HUD on stars to be able to win.

This game is a battle of minds not a battle of data analysts

percival09

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

It'll never happen. For a start it would be super easy to access the database using another device while playing. Who is going to be prepared to spend a ton of money developing the software and running the database? Sales among the relatively small player pool here would never justify the outlay. Once the Sky software is tweaked to allow hands to be read by this new HUD read it'll open the door to other software to do exactly the same. There can't be grey areas. Either HUDs are allowed or they aren't. Sky have made their stance clear and I don't see many people disagreeing with it.
Posted by GaryQQQ

very much this

percival09

oh, please. data analysts and not a battle of the minds. the ignorance................

mumsie

A hud doesn't analyze anything.

It just counts how often you do something and turns it into a %.

Huds are not allowed .

You can put all the hands you have played into a spread sheet if you like and look for  Bots.

I don't get why you think high stakes players deserve database superuser privileges.

tomgoodun

Be great if opinions either way were not ridiculed. I am personally against the idea of any software used in this great game we play.i may be an ignoramus on HUD'S ( I don't even know what the acronym stands for) but for me the game should be played on a level playing field for all and once you start introducing software into the equation the sheer magic of pitting your wits against your opponent/s disappears.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

It'll never happen. For a start it would be super easy to access the database using another device while playing. Who is going to be prepared to spend a ton of money developing the software and running the database? Sales among the relatively small player pool here would never justify the outlay. Once the Sky software is tweaked to allow hands to be read by this new HUD read it'll open the door to other software to do exactly the same. There can't be grey areas. Either HUDs are allowed or they aren't. Sky have made their stance clear and I don't see many people disagreeing with it.
Posted by GaryQQQ

How do we know there aren't already some players out there that have developed their own HUD which is undetected by Sky anyway? One of the reasons people are in favour of HUDs being allowed on other sites is that they think it's impossible to enforce a ban on them and as such you'd be at a disadvantage if you were honest and not using a HUD whilst everyone else is.

That's true about being able to access the database whilst using another device - hadn't thought of that. I guess one way around that is thus:

- The database is connected to Skypoker DL itself and available to everyone for free.

- You can only be logged in to the Skypoker DL on one device at any one time.

The first point there also adresses your first point - it would have to be Sky that created it. As I said in my OP I don't expect this to happen in the near future. But maybe 3/4+ years down the line (especially with the rate of technological advancement) then I don't see why not.

And like I opened with - I don't disagree with Sky's stance regarding HUDs, but this suggestion is slightly different. And it's a good way to help REG's to identify possible bots/multi-accounters/colluders and bring them to the attention of Sky. Right now most of us are in the dark about it - but most REG's are happy to ignore the possibility of it because they're winning money anyway. But were it to be the case that in 3/4 years time that suddenly REG's found it much tougher to win money then people might suddenly begin to be concerned about the possibility of these things.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

A hud doesn't analyze anything. It just counts how often you do something and turns it into a %. Huds are not allowed . You can put all the hands you have played into a spread sheet if you like and look for  Bots. I don't get why you think high stakes players deserve database superuser privileges.
Posted by mumsie

It would be available to everyone if introduced in the way I mentioned in the above post. And cmon' be serious; nobody in their right mind has the time to input every single hand they have played into a spread sheet. 

stokefc

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

Be great if opinions either way were not ridiculed. I am personally against the idea of any software used in this great game we play.i may be an ignoramus on HUD'S ( I don't even know what the acronym stands for) but for me the game should be played on a level playing field for all and once you start introducing software into the equation the sheer magic of pitting your wits against your opponent/s disappears.
Posted by tomgoodun

     ^^^^^

 this,the cream will rise to the top with no fancy software

ivan, i dont know what reasons i have to give,weather you think recs will be at a dissadvatage or not i just dont want to play anyone who has one

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

massive no .... I hate being forced into a situation where I have to use a HUD on stars to be able to win. This game is a battle of minds not a battle of data analysts
Posted by Itsover4u

Please read the whole post I am the same - it's why I don't play on stars/other sites. But I think with just a database and no actual HUD that it would not be the same as it is on Stars. The other difference with Stars is that it's got a huge userbase so it's almost as though you need a HUD to compete - whereas on Sky the userbase of REGs is relatively small so you can easily remember how someone plays - and notes on that are much more useful than a HUD. 

mumsie

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? : Please read the whole post I am the same - it's why I don't play on stars/other sites. But I think with just a database and no actual HUD that it would not be the same as it is on Stars. The other difference with Stars is that it's got a huge userbase so it's almost as though you need a HUD to compete - whereas on Sky the userbase of REGs is relatively small so you can easily remember how someone plays - and notes on that are much more useful than a HUD. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

We have this already.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise?:

In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? : We have this already.
Posted by mumsie

We have some limited stats from our play but nothing of any opponents...