In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? : We have opponents stats too, we can look at every hand we played, if they were at out table and their cards reached showdown. We have that info too. Posted by mumsie
And as I said before; good luck manually entering all that data for every single player whilst playing poker at the same time.
And enlighten me how you are going to detect bots and collusion with your miniscule sample size? The only players able to do this are those that put in significant volume.
And enlighten me how you are going to detect bots and collusion with your miniscule sample size? The only players able to do this are those that put in significant volume. Posted by F_Ivanovic
I don't look at HH for Bots ETc.
The best way to find a bot is write a Bot yourself, then you'll spot one a mile off.
In Response to Re: HUDs - a compromise? : I don't look at HH for Bots ETc. The best way to find a bot is write a Bot yourself, then you'll spot one a mile off. Posted by mumsie
Tell that to the plethora of mid-high stakes players that have used their HUD's to detect bots and other cheating behaviour over the past decade including the recent bot ring found on Stars. Just because you can't use stats to find bots doesn't mean other players can't.
mumsie, your comments are woefully ignorant. A hud likely has around 500 different statistics, each showing the action that the player in question performed every time. It has everything from raise first in by position, 3bet sb vs MP, turn bet and folds vs raise, to how often someone folds the bb vs a sb raise, and many, many more. I'm fairly sure that the tiny box you're speaking of has <1% info compared to these databases - its like claiming a 33ml can holds the same amount of liquid as a 27.6 litre bottle.
As ivanovic mentioned, recently on 2p2 a bot ring was detected on pokerstars solely from 1 or 2 players spending hours searching through these endless statistics and finding similarities between players. I'll give you a small example, their are plenty more in the thread - there were around 10 bots in question, and a player managed to compile statistics that showed them all massively changing strategy on the exact same day. They all went from folding around 70% in the BB vs a SB raise to only folding 40%, this was over a sample of thousands of hands and it was only these (already) suspected bots that had such a sudden change of strategy.
Now, considering these hands took place months ago, how would you go about finding them in this sky poker box/hand history thing? It would a) take about 412 years and b) be close to impossible. I don't even like Ivanovic's idea but your points are just way off the mark, so I hope this enlightens you.
^ Thanks for that I didn't have time to write a proper reply whilst playing poker at the same time before!
Did you read my reply to GaryQQQ?
- The database is connected to Skypoker DL itself and available to everyone for free.
- You can only be logged in to the Skypoker DL on one device at any one time.
Surely this addresses the biggest initial problem with this idea? If Skypoker collects the data for you then they won't have to tweak the code and as such it won't open the door for other software to do the same.
I guess my 2nd point doesn't stop someone from copying the information to an excel sheet (or manually writing it all down) and they can then use this mid-game. But I imagine it would be pretty hard to gain an advantage from that - after all you don't get long to act on Sky and if you are a standard REG that multi-tables I think it would be too time consuming with not enough reward to constantly look up specific stats mid-hand when trying to make a decision.
Other than the above potential problem though, is there any other reasons you dislike the idea? Does the above problem outweigh the benefits that will arise from being able to potentially detect any wrongdoing from other users? Maybe, I dunno. As I said I don't expect this to happen in short term anyway and right now I'm not bothered about that fact since I like no Huds. But if bots start infesting Sky I'd like to be able to go about being able to spot them.
I can see a benefit in using HUDs, as per this thread.
For all that, HUDs are IMO, cheating, pure and simple. Is it fair that only some players can see the hole cards of someone who has mucked their hand post-flop?
The only advantage people playing single tables is that they are actually watching the hands, whereas the person playing 30 tables on Stars can just bring every stat up when feels the need, so knows who 3 bets light, who is a TAG etc.
I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over!
I can see a benefit in using HUDs, as per this thread. For all that, HUDs are IMO, cheating, pure and simple. Is it fair that only some players can see the hole cards of someone who has mucked their hand post-flop? The only advantage people playing single tables is that they are actually watching the hands, whereas the person playing 30 tables on Stars can just bring every stat up when feels the need, so knows who 3 bets light, who is a TAG etc. I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over! Posted by Essexphil
Sorry but when has this ever been the case? lol
If ANY hand gets to showdown (or villian chooses to 'show') then ANY player can go into the HH and find out what they had. It's exactly what you have to do on Sky, and everyone should do it or you're just giving up huge amounts of free info. Like if you bet river with top set and get called, it's pretty important to know whether villian called with bottom set, or TP, or 2nd pr, or bottom pair, or A high etc etc. and this info is available to ALL on every site.
It also aint cheating in the slightest, but that's a point for another day.
I can see a benefit in using HUDs, as per this thread. For all that, HUDs are IMO, cheating, pure and simple. Is it fair that only some players can see the hole cards of someone who has mucked their hand post-flop? The only advantage people playing single tables is that they are actually watching the hands, whereas the person playing 30 tables on Stars can just bring every stat up when feels the need, so knows who 3 bets light, who is a TAG etc. I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over! Posted by Essexphil
Comments like yours are really worrying as its putting out false information and makes rec players even more scared of HUDs and gives the impression HUDs do a lot more than they do.
HUDs provide information on betting patterns etc, how that information is used is the key thing. Some players interprete the information badly and would actually do better without a HUD.
"I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over!"
hmm steroids are illegal though and their use prohibited.
using a HUD on a site like stars is more like using the best running shoes you can afford.
and it is a better analogy as tracking software is insanely cheap [£100 or so, or a small stakes version for $£60] and readily available to all. having it wont make you a better player any more than having boss running shoes will turn you into a winning athlete.
stats only give a small piece of the jigsaw, most of the work is done away from the table.
i'd wager more players using HUDs are losing players than winning ones. i know from speaking to the owner of a training site that sells customised HUDs that he estimates most of his customers are losing players - and they represent a subsection of players willing to pay money to get better.
the fact that HUDs are cheap and widely publicised means regs and recs enjoy using them, they are not secret weapons used to crush games. they will confer a significant advantage to those willing to do off-table work, but mild-to-little advantage to players who put little work in. for lots of players they lose with or without a HUD.
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edit:
rememebr tuffish was HUD'ed up in his infamous videos and he was a celebrated fish. he recorded those vids in 2009 or so
Nice try teddy but I think the steroid analogy works better. It's just that on some sites it is legal to use them whereas on others like skypoker it is not.
You've always needed running shoes to go running and it's obv whose got the fancy new ones whereas you can't look at someone and know if they're using steroids or not, and originally you could succeed at running without steroids.
Now it's an interesting point of Ivans that without tools how can the community here spot the illegal use of bots and HUDs? How do we know if our waters have become shark infested of the illegal kind? Can we rely on skypoker to always find them? And if not, then how?
Comments
All the info is laid out on a plate , its in the account history for us all to see our own eyes.
How we spend time looking at it is, like you said, down to our own level of madness.
But we don't need to look at every hand.
Im currently 2 tabling , writing this reply and looking at a sky session I played earlier.
That session
About 100 hands played. ( all numbers guesses)
50 % of them didn't reach showdown
30 % were miniscule amounts that im not interested in
Of the rest, 7 hands intrest me.
No need to view every hand
If I was on any other site, without a HUD, It would be something similar.
If I was on a HUD site. It would be not too dissimilar either.
It depends how you mange your time with the data that's available, HUD or no HUD.
I don't look at HH for Bots ETc.
The best way to find a bot is write a Bot yourself, then you'll spot one a mile off.
As ivanovic mentioned, recently on 2p2 a bot ring was detected on pokerstars solely from 1 or 2 players spending hours searching through these endless statistics and finding similarities between players. I'll give you a small example, their are plenty more in the thread - there were around 10 bots in question, and a player managed to compile statistics that showed them all massively changing strategy on the exact same day. They all went from folding around 70% in the BB vs a SB raise to only folding 40%, this was over a sample of thousands of hands and it was only these (already) suspected bots that had such a sudden change of strategy.
Now, considering these hands took place months ago, how would you go about finding them in this sky poker box/hand history thing? It would a) take about 412 years and b) be close to impossible. I don't even like Ivanovic's idea but your points are just way off the mark, so I hope this enlightens you.
I haven't read/ googled/ visited 2P2 so my ignorance is obvious.
Though I still can see how a bot can be detected using a HUD.
Maybe I'm stupid too .
For all that, HUDs are IMO, cheating, pure and simple. Is it fair that only some players can see the hole cards of someone who has mucked their hand post-flop?
The only advantage people playing single tables is that they are actually watching the hands, whereas the person playing 30 tables on Stars can just bring every stat up when feels the need, so knows who 3 bets light, who is a TAG etc.
I don't blame players for using every advantage they can, but for me it is a bit like an athlete using an undetectable steroid...rant over!
If ANY hand gets to showdown (or villian chooses to 'show') then ANY player can go into the HH and find out what they had. It's exactly what you have to do on Sky, and everyone should do it or you're just giving up huge amounts of free info. Like if you bet river with top set and get called, it's pretty important to know whether villian called with bottom set, or TP, or 2nd pr, or bottom pair, or A high etc etc. and this info is available to ALL on every site.