Fairplay to sky for listening as potentially taking £1100 out the prize pool to add to first was a bad idea especailly this late in the day.
I do feel a little deceived by sky as i thought the added seats this week were added and not taken out the prize pool and i joined one main event based on that assumtion,bit shady from sky TBH trying to dictate where some of the prize goes but at the same time making it look like a giveraway
Apologies for my clumsy wording, especially as to "bonus". In my follow-up post, in reply to Batesy, I did clarify it properly.
It was a genuine misunderstanding, & something Sam & I started discussing on Friday, as I had concerns that the wording of these things needs to be just so.
Sky Poker is in it's 9th year, & I hope by now most of you will realise that whilst they make their share of mistakes, they have never been guilty of deliberate sharp practice.
Anyway, UKOPS ended on a high, it seemed to be a great evening, & I hope most of you enjoyed it - warts & all.
In Response to Re: oioi, a £1,100 Sky Poker UKPC seat is on offer today. : No offence taken, this was a discussion Tikay and I had on Friday. I thought it was a fantastic idea and he wasn't so sure. Looks like he was right on this one. Happy to admit he is right occasionally. Posted by Sky_SamT
"occasionally"? 2nd time this century, if you don't mind.
Do sky award themselves the rake when using the prize pool to fund seats? So say they decide to award a seat into a £55 bounty hunter to the top ten finishers in an mtt. This is taken out of the prize pool. Do sky take £550 from the pool? If so aren't they effectively forcing the player pool into paying them £50 in rake? Posted by TeddyBloat
No idea, Teddy, but I'll ask the question.
Going forward, these things will be worded more clearly.
Very saddened to read this post. Although Sky may not "be guilty of deliberate sharp practice", but the fact is it is sharp practice.In fact i would go so far as to say its illegal. I suspect anyone taking this up to arbritation would win the argument with relative ease.My first reaction was to keep away from this debate as it has knothing to do with me, but i realised i came 8th and won a seat the following day. I was gutted with the massive outdraw but there was some consolation in getting a little bonus for another chance the following day. This is bad on so many levels that i could write a sermon on it. I think sky should re examine this and make amends to prizes given. Although this may cost a little, in fact it would be a cheap price for all the good publicity it would create. People receiving a little money and an apology would give the brand a boost money normally cannot buy.On the other hand, Failure to resolve could lead to substantial brand damage if anyone takes this further.I'm seriously angry at the moment to contemplate this so im going to take a step back.For my part its not about the money and i would happily give permission to sky to donate to charity.
Four times in the second week of the festival we added £1,100 worth of seats onto the guarantee of the tournament. This was never marketed in any other way than added to the guarantee of the event in question. There were threads on the forum each time we did this as well as site messaging to back up what we were doing, plus a description in the tournament lobby. Had the guarantee of these tournaments not been met we would have still stood the extra £1,100 worth of seats as these were seen as an incentive to those debating whether to play this. This was also done the previous weekend with High Roller seats.
I apologise if anybody feels like they have been mislead by this and we will look at how we handle situations such as this one going forward. This isn't something that is unique to Sky Poker you will find many tournaments/ sites that incorporate seats in a quoted guarantee but as mentioned I will look at how/ if we do this going forward.
I can see why it's good practice for sites as you are essentially ensuring a % of the prize pool comes straight back to you as rake by forcing winners into buying a service off you. And you also increase numbers in the target events you lock players into.
Not sure if it's in the player's best interest though
I personally think that this could be the start of a very worrying trend that we see at other operators and would ask that you guys consider not doing this again in the future, It seems that once businesses start doing the "added seats thing" it all of a sudden becomes the norm and it starts happening all the time i.e to get numbers in the roller up you will start doing it on every daily main event (sorry to give you ideas), this would ultimately lead to reduced cash prizes and in the long term will definitely be -EV for most people that play regularly on the site. Of course there will probably be exceptions to this and that will mainly be with the people that cannot afford to play higher buy in events however it could be argued that Sky has a great satellite system which any player has an opportunity to use to their advantage.
I'm unable to play in the UKOPS tournaments this debate applies to, so I can look at the situation a neutral.
The seats were promoted here as 'added value'. That's very misleading in my opinion. The was no added value unless the tournaments ran with overlay, an unlikely situation. It was never made clear that the cash prize pool was being reduced by the value of these seats.
Further more, this could be seen as Sky taking extra rake from the prize pool. £100 in the case of a £1,100 seat (which I assume is £1,000 + £100).
I can only agree with the other players who've replied here. This reflects badly on Sky Poker and would be best avoided in future if you wish to maintain your hard-earned reputation for fairness and honesty.
If it was marketed correctly then why so many aggreived. If we get past this then how can you change the prize structure. I have decided i will write to sky and take this matter through skys internal complaints procedure and thereafter take the matter externally to the alternative dispute resolution service.
It's not just the marketing, the principal of raking the prize pool is pretty scummy.
Just because other sites have shady ways of ensuring they rake players as much as they can doesn't mean sky should be joining them.
That they use words like "added" and "Bonus" when they are actually ensuring some of the prize pool is converted to rake really does stick in the throat though.
This is fairly common practice at some live venues. It is not really about getting additional rake in the prizes paid out as about ensuring that guarantees are met in the forthcoming event and avoiding or reducing costly overlay.
Already quite a few players are boycotting live venues that use this practice and no doubt SKY Poker will lose players if it is repeated. The plus side is that the majority of players won't realise it is happening so you can get away with it quite a few times before it seriously affects the business.
Long term, it will alienate customers and drive them to other sites.
Hi guys, yes this probably was an error of judgment by Sky. However I'm sure they will learn from it and we know Sky Sam and TK are genuine, good guys who go to a lot of lengths to reply and get feedback from us about various issues.
We are very lucky to have a forum where anyone can vent their disapproval in these situations.
It would be a shame for Sky to say that "Replying and/or providing a Forum is more trouble than it's worth"
So, lets put things in perspective. I do not know many sites that interact so well with their players and get fast feedback to them via the Forum etc.
So lets not vilify them too much.
For me personally, I quite like "seats added to the prize pool". Although I did think that 1 UKPC seat for the winner was wrong (unless being given, as it eventually was)
The good thing when say 10 seats form part of the prize pool, is that it is good for the guys finishing 7th-10th, which can often be a disappointing result compared to the prize pool that the final table receive.
So a quick message particularly to Sky Sam and TK. This probably was a mistake, but keep up the good work, and thanks for fighting our corner with these things. Great that you got the UKPC seat to be "added" in the end.
Hi Graham, Great post as always. Well done in the main event.I have taken this matter further than most for the following reasons
1. When a grey haired dinosaur says its not right the youngsters should listen.
2. They do it because other sites do it and then they call it industry standard.
3. They have not said it won't happen again, just they will do it differently
4. Most importantly, the prize pool is the players money.In an END event they can split it up as originally advertised but they cannot and should not tell you how and where to spend it.The rake/fee is theirs to do as they please.
I will be writing for an external adjudication on this matter over the weekend. Sky beleive " the prize pool is sky poker's to use as we desire".This has to be challenged because this is the players money. I'm not after money, just an acknowledgement that this practice is plain wrong
Hi guys, yes this probably was an error of judgment by Sky. However I'm sure they will learn from it and we know Sky Sam and TK are genuine, good guys who go to a lot of lengths to reply and get feedback from us about various issues. We are very lucky to have a forum where anyone can vent their disapproval in these situations. It would be a shame for Sky to say that "Replying and/or providing a Forum is more trouble than it's worth" So, lets put things in perspective. I do not know many sites that interact so well with their players and get fast feedback to them via the Forum etc. So lets not vilify them too much. For me personally, I quite like "seats added to the prize pool". Although I did think that 1 UKPC seat for the winner was wrong (unless being given, as it eventually was) The good thing when say 10 seats form part of the prize pool, is that it is good for the guys finishing 7th-10th, which can often be a disappointing result compared to the prize pool that the final table receive. So a quick message particularly to Sky Sam and TK. This probably was a mistake, but keep up the good work, and thanks for fighting our corner with these things. Great that you got the UKPC seat to be "added" in the end. All the best, Graham Posted by StayOrGo
Hi Graham, Great post as always. Well done in the main event.I have taken this matter further than most for the following reasons 1. When a grey haired dinosaur says its not right the youngsters should listen. 2. They do it because other sites do it and then they call it industry standard. 3. They have not said it won't happen again, just they will do it differently 4. Most importantly, the prize pool is the players money.In an END event they can split it up as originally advertised but they cannot and should not tell you how and where to spend it.The rake/fee is theirs to do as they please. I will be writing for an external adjudication on this matter over the weekend. Sky beleive " the prize pool is sky poker's to use as we desire".This has to be challenged because this is the players money. I'm not after money, just an acknowledgement that this practice is plain wrong Posted by CxE1
Comments
I do feel a little deceived by sky as i thought the added seats this week were added and not taken out the prize pool and i joined one main event based on that assumtion,bit shady from sky TBH trying to dictate where some of the prize goes but at the same time making it look like a giveraway
Morning chaps.
Apologies for my clumsy wording, especially as to "bonus". In my follow-up post, in reply to Batesy, I did clarify it properly.
It was a genuine misunderstanding, & something Sam & I started discussing on Friday, as I had concerns that the wording of these things needs to be just so.
Sky Poker is in it's 9th year, & I hope by now most of you will realise that whilst they make their share of mistakes, they have never been guilty of deliberate sharp practice.
Anyway, UKOPS ended on a high, it seemed to be a great evening, & I hope most of you enjoyed it - warts & all.
Going forward, these things will be worded more clearly.
The seats were promoted here as 'added value'. That's very misleading in my opinion. The was no added value unless the tournaments ran with overlay, an unlikely situation. It was never made clear that the cash prize pool was being reduced by the value of these seats.
Further more, this could be seen as Sky taking extra rake from the prize pool. £100 in the case of a £1,100 seat (which I assume is £1,000 + £100).
I can only agree with the other players who've replied here. This reflects badly on Sky Poker and would be best avoided in future if you wish to maintain your hard-earned reputation for fairness and honesty.
We are very lucky to have a forum where anyone can vent their disapproval in these situations.
It would be a shame for Sky to say that "Replying and/or providing a Forum is more trouble than it's worth"
So, lets put things in perspective. I do not know many sites that interact so well with their players and get fast feedback to them via the Forum etc.
So lets not vilify them too much.
For me personally, I quite like "seats added to the prize pool". Although I did think that 1 UKPC seat for the winner was wrong (unless being given, as it eventually was)
The good thing when say 10 seats form part of the prize pool, is that it is good for the guys finishing 7th-10th, which can often be a disappointing result compared to the prize pool that the final table receive.
So a quick message particularly to Sky Sam and TK. This probably was a mistake, but keep up the good work, and thanks for fighting our corner with these things. Great that you got the UKPC seat to be "added" in the end.
All the best,
Graham
Well said Graham, nice post.