All points taken on board thank you. But it seems my bad luck in MTTs and MTTs qualifiers continus with: Q9 beating my JJ AJ beating my QQ and the final killer A4 beating my AJ and all with the final six. That saw me go from chip leader to struggler and out. Thanks Sky. You are right HH. I do fold good spots because I feel I wont make the river, but I will try that. And Tikay can I ask you a question. I have known the whole "better to win two ways than one" strategy before. My question is if you know the kind of player you are up against who folds to your big bets but tries to bully to your weak bets. If you know you can get him in a situation like a hand above where he only has 3 outs at best, would you not play it weak and hope for an all in to make a call. Or would you still suggest just taking the blinds? Posted by Gamer11
Fair point abouting winning 1 or 2 out of 50. I am going to test the variance because so far I am getting burned by it. So hopefully it wont be too long til I get to enjoy the good side of variance. You have to understand I am not the type of player that goes to a lot of showdowns with pre flop all in calls or bets. If I do take someone out, it would normally be with them pushing all in on a good flop or turn for me and me just calling them. Other then that I play my cards and when I catch good I play for value. So on the rare occasions that I do snap someones all in and get it right I want to get my reward to a 70%+ call. So that is why I am staying to test this out. Hopefully you are right and the variance will even itself out in the long term. Posted by Gamer11
That means you are not the aggressor in BIG POTS and therefore ruling out half the ways you can win a pot - of course variance will seem greater. AK is not a great hand unless you hit the flop. If you reraise someone with JQ who missed flop you have a great chance of winning - if you call and they hit a J or Q on next 2 cards, you gave them that chance.
I don't have the temperament to play like a really aggrplao player but when I sense weakness I will raise or reraise. Sometimes you get caught out (the guy who won my last DYM was down to 200 chips - I spoonfed him to 2k chips with my chips when he caught AK v my AJ and shoving a weak hand when he had less than 2 BBs).
I played on tilt one day last week and made so many bad decisions and was sure each of them (a few were in reality) was a horrible beat. Looking back I ignored signs, bet poorly on some hands AFTER I hit one or two coolers. I can mostly roll eyes at a cooler but I had jumped up stakes for a timed tourney and it was galling to go from doubling up to going out in 5 mins when I "had" the best hand.
Sleep on it, look back at hands and see if you played hands that you remember as coolers correctly. Chances are you made big mistakes in some. You never believe a villain after he delivers a cooler.
What I mean about not making the river is when I have over 10 outs, I wont hit but someone with 3 outs will hit just fine. Especially against me. I dont change my mentality but I do find that I really get the bad end of things. And no matter what i do I have better luck when calling from behind than being ahead
Recent example just today on my first game
I get AK. I raise from SB and BB calls. Flop comes A Q 6. I raise big. BB calls. the turn is a 3. There is no flush draws on the board. I go all in. BB snap calls and shows 4 7. Can you guess what the river card was? Il give you a clue. I got knocked out.
Instead of sleeping on it, when I lose crazy hands I pull out a real deck and play the same hands again 10 times to see how many times I win or lose it. The conclusion is online poker really isn't the same as a real deal, but then again what site is.
So majority here say to stay aggressive. So does that mean most pockets get all in pushes pre flop?
Another example: If in a tournament where blinds are high, I am the type to nervously call a raise pre flop with KK, see no ace on the flop and check the flop (if first to act) and wait for another bet to 3 bet or push all in? Good play or bad play in your opinion? If bad play - please say what you would do. And lets say its against a player who is chip leader playing aggressive and playing 50% of their hands (so quite loose or playing a wide range).
"What I mean about not making the river is when I have over 10 outs, I wont hit but someone with 3 outs will hit just fine. Especially against me. I dont change my mentality but I do find that I really get the bad end of things"
If I may say so, the problems are in your head. You THINK you get the bad end of things, that's just selective memory at work.
"The conclusion is online poker really isn't the same as a real deal, but then again what site is."
If you think there is a difference between Online poker & what you call "real poker", I'm sorry to say you are wrong. It's just maths, & the maths don't change. Ever. There are no "bent" Online Poker sites. None. Why would there be any, for what purpose or motive?
"Instead of sleeping on it, when I lose crazy hands I pull out a real deck and play the same hands again 10 times to see how many times I win or lose it"
All that does is reinforce in your mind what you believe. 10 hands is utterly meaningless. That "4-7" hand the chap will hit it on the river, ON AVERAGE, in time in 11.
But this is where Variance rears it's two-faced head, & it's variance that makes poker the great game it is, once you learn to embrace it.
Try & replicate that hand by getting a deck of cards & dealing out hands does not work unless you do it 100,000 times. That outcome could come up twice in a row, or not once in 1,000 attempts. That's real poker.
"I am the type to nervously call a raise pre flop with KK, see no ace on the flop and check the flop (if first to act)"
This is subjective, & I'm no expert on NLH, but you are the architect of your own downfall playing Kings like that. Supposing an Ace DOES flop, is Villain guaranteed to have it? He's not, but plenty will rep it. Ask any of the winners here, lads like Matt Bates, & he can have any spanners at all, but will rep that Ace. And you will do the "fit or fold" fold. That's why these kids do so well.
I hope you don't think I'm being over critical - I'm not, I'm trying to help. These problems are in your mind.
Any questions, fire away.
We'll get there, but you need to clear your mind of this "online poker is not real poker" stuff. The maths is the maths is the maths. It's that simple.
And again no luck. Qualified for the 10k tournament tonight and my two big hands I play with an idiot who was pushing was: AQ v 77 LOST JJ V 99 LOST When it matters I dont catch. But when I sit on a SNG I cant stop getting good hands. Is there two different systems being used? I dont know how to test variance. What I meant was simply I hope luck WILL go my way when it matters. So far I am still getting burnt for making right calls. The AQ v 77 I can accept. Coin flip fair enough. JJ V 99......yea right Posted by Gamer11
would you have shoved if the hands were reversed and you had the pairs 77 and 99 or would you fold them personaly i think shoving with these is ok and not really an idiots move
poker is just one of those games, you can make the right decision and lose and you can make bad decisions and win. just smile and except that a lot of the time poker is just a game of luck.
What I mean about not making the river is when I have over 10 outs, I wont hit but someone with 3 outs will hit just fine. Especially against me. I dont change my mentality but I do find that I really get the bad end of things. And no matter what i do I have better luck when calling from behind than being ahead Recent example just today on my first game I get AK. I raise from SB and BB calls. Flop comes A Q 6. I raise big. BB calls. the turn is a 3. There is no flush draws on the board. I go all in. BB snap calls and shows 4 7. Can you guess what the river card was? Il give you a clue. I got knocked out. Instead of sleeping on it, when I lose crazy hands I pull out a real deck and play the same hands again 10 times to see how many times I win or lose it. The conclusion is online poker really isn't the same as a real deal, but then again what site is. So majority here say to stay aggressive. So does that mean most pockets get all in pushes pre flop? Another example: If in a tournament where blinds are high, I am the type to nervously call a raise pre flop with KK, see no ace on the flop and check the flop (if first to act) and wait for another bet to 3 bet or push all in? Good play or bad play in your opinion? If bad play - please say what you would do. And lets say its against a player who is chip leader playing aggressive and playing 50% of their hands (so quite loose or playing a wide range). Posted by Gamer11
Like a faulty elevator, this is wrong on many levels.
I will tell you what is wrong. This site is wrong.
This has to be one of the worst sites for poker. People catch madness. Simple as that. Maths means nothing on this site. 3 outs is as good as having 52 and 15 outs is as good as having 1.
I am sorry I started any debate on this forum page. I will make sure I wont waste my time in the future. I have seen far too much madness against my hands to even bother trying to make sense of it all. This is hands down the worst site for poker.
Lets hope their promotions can keep sucking in players to lose their money. I cant play a single pair of pockets without some magic happening. After losing 3 hands in a row when I was ahead pre flop the final nail in the coffin was QQ vs Q9. Tripes 9's was the end result. That is unreal. A sit n go game where everyone keeps passing on chips until I get involved and lose it all. Players on my table cant even believe it and it keeps happening. So I am not going to change anything about my game. I am not going to let sky's rubbish poker site put doubts in my head about my game. This is not real poker or anywhere close. This is sky bingo with a new name.
To all new players, becareful. You will be told your game needs improving when really this site and how it generates its hands need improve.
And to all the advice. Appreciate it, but you can keep it. This site is no longer my main poker site. Its nothing more than my side chick to raise a little change to keep my sport betting account going. Worst site out!!!
I will tell you what is wrong. This site is wrong. This has to be one of the worst sites for poker. People catch madness. Simple as that. Maths means nothing on this site. 3 outs is as good as having 52 and 15 outs is as good as having 1. I am sorry I started any debate on this forum page. I will make sure I wont waste my time in the future. I have seen far too much madness against my hands to even bother trying to make sense of it all. This is hands down the worst site for poker. Lets hope their promotions can keep sucking in players to lose their money. I cant play a single pair of pockets without some magic happening. After losing 3 hands in a row when I was ahead pre flop the final nail in the coffin was QQ vs Q9. Tripes 9's was the end result. That is unreal. A sit n go game where everyone keeps passing on chips until I get involved and lose it all. Players on my table cant even believe it and it keeps happening. So I am not going to change anything about my game. I am not going to let sky's rubbish poker site put doubts in my head about my game. This is not real poker or anywhere close. This is sky bingo with a new name. To all new players, becareful. You will be told your game needs improving when really this site and how it generates its hands need improve. And to all the advice. Appreciate it, but you can keep it. This site is no longer my main poker site. Its nothing more than my side chick to raise a little change to keep my sport betting account going. Worst site out!!! Posted by Gamer11
".....the final nail in the coffin was QQ vs Q9. Tripes 9's was the end result.That is unreal "
I'm afraid anyone who thinks that is "unreal", & has not seen it, or its equivalent, hundreds of times, has not played much poker. I'd bet good money you've been on the winning end of similar coups, too. We all have.
Anyway, as to my efforts to help & advise, think I'll file this under
MickyBlue you are right and I apologise tikay. I have taken all the advice on board. Right now I just need to focus on my own game and try out a few other sites because the amount of bad beats I am getting is starting to get to me (if that wasn't obvious to tell). Need to see that this stream of bad luck is more about my game than it is about sky. I need to go back to enjoying my poker. So for now, thank you for the advice. I am done with discussions. Thank you for your time.
Read this thread with interest to see how it would go. And one line stuck in my head and felt compelled to comment upon it.
And again no luck. Qualified for the 10k tournament tonight
This was said by you and sums up the problem very nicely in one line. The problem is not the bad side of variance or anything like that but perception. When on the good side of variance you take it as read that should happen and ignore it only focussing on the bad.
In this quote you said you had no luck and then immediately say that you qualified for a big tournament. A massive chunk of luck and well on the plus aide of variance there. But has not been entered on the positive variance side.
Simply put you will have bad luck at times as will we all but you will have good luck too. You need to understand when this is and except it for what it is and not take it as read that it is totally deserved due to your ability.
When you have your head in the right place you will enjoy poker more and may then be able to focus on things that need it
I have to put one thing clear because I get the feeling people assume I do not take into account when I am covered in an all in like A5 V AK or 10 10 V K K.
I dont see the good side of variance much because I win hands where the odds favour me. I even respect when its A10 V K9 that we have pretty much got a coin flip with my ace high giving me a slight edge. I respect the maths of poker but I no longer believe sky poker does. It is VERY rare for me to win when I am behind and even more rare if I am covered. If you consider AK v 66 as me being behind then those are the only situations where I leave it to luck.
My main debate and problem with sky poker is the 2/3 out hands. The countless times I will have someone covered and magic happens is unreal. Im talking about hands like:
AJ V A10 K10 V K8 KK V KQ AA V 88 etc...
Hands that the villians only have a handful of cards that could save them. Hands that once in a while I can accept being beaten on. But when your best success in these positions feels like you are 50/50 on them you start to notice the frequency of these beats. And almost everytime I am behind...I lose which I can accept if the reverse was anything similar. But that's not the case. Sky loves action. I have people on my table saying "wow" and the things they see happen.
So like I said, before I review my game anymore I am trying out other sites and let me just add so far..so good.
I have to put one thing clear because I get the feeling people assume I do not take into account when I am covered in an all in like A5 V AK or 10 10 V K K. I dont see the good side of variance much because I win hands where the odds favour me. I even respect when its A10 V K9 that we have pretty much got a coin flip with my ace high giving me a slight edge. I respect the maths of poker but I no longer believe sky poker does. It is VERY rare for me to win when I am behind and even more rare if I am covered. If you consider AK v 66 as me being behind then those are the only situations where I leave it to luck. My main debate and problem with sky poker is the 2/3 out hands. The countless times I will have someone covered and magic happens is unreal. Im talking about hands like: AJ V A10 K10 V K8 KK V KQ AA V 88 etc... Hands that the villians only have a handful of cards that could save them. Hands that once in a while I can accept being beaten on. But when your best success in these positions feels like you are 50/50 on them you start to notice the frequency of these beats. And almost everytime I am behind...I lose which I can accept if the reverse was anything similar. But that's not the case. Sky loves action. I have people on my table saying "wow" and the things they see happen. So like I said, before I review my game anymore I am trying out other sites and let me just add so far..so good. Posted by Gamer11
Here's an example of how to work out your Expected Value.
I put in 100bb. You put in 100bb. I have AQ, you have AK. Roughly a 70/30 shot in your favour.
The amount you expect to win is NOT 200bb. It's 70% of the total pot. So that's 140bb.
That means your expected profit in that hand is only 40bb. So every individual time you profit to the tune of 100bb, you are running on the positive side of variance. You're getting lucky every time you win the full 200bb pot.
Now, what seems to be a bigger problem in your game is that you're not playing enough hands aggressively enough. That's fine if you're not taking the game really seriously, but you are. The negative results are obviously stressing you out a bit too, so that's something you need to try to fix.
Here's an example of the effect of your tournament strategy as I interpret it, and possibly the reason for your distress.
We get AA early on and get all in vs JJ and win. - That's as it should be. Yipee!
We wait for another big hand (AT+, JJ+) before making a big play... So we dwindle, dwindle, dwindle, all the time still making the calls trying to hit with our moderate hands like QJ, etc... Winning some, losing more because we miss more often than we hit flops. Maybe getting a few big hands but not getting action.
Then we get KK and double up again vs AQ or similar. - Again, that's how it should be. Yipee. But we're not building a big stack because we haven't made enough of those other spots with less than premium hands.
Dwindle, dwindle, dwindle...
Another double with say AJ vs AT on an Ace high board. - As it should be.
Dwindle, dwindle, dwindle...
AK all in vs AQ... lose and we're out. - OMG! It's so rigged! How can I go out of tournaments as a favourite all the time?!
If you only play big hands in a tournament, you will need to win virtually all of them. You're relying on luck to get you through, and relying on running very well. You should lose one of these spots and it's not running bad when you do.
If experience has taught me anything it's that someone who's convinced a site is rigged can not be reasoned with... prove the exception to that, Gamer11.
Why I'm doing this, I don't know. Here's an example of how to work out your Expected Value. I put in 100bb. You put in 100bb. I have AQ, you have AK. Roughly a 70/30 shot in your favour. The amount you expect to win is NOT 200bb. It's 70% of the total pot. So that's 140bb. That means your expected profit in that hand is only 40bb . So every individual time you profit to the tune of 100bb , you are running on the positive side of variance . You're getting lucky every time you win the full 200bb pot. Now, what seems to be a bigger problem in your game is that you're not playing enough hands aggressively enough. That's fine if you're not taking the game really seriously, but you are. The negative results are obviously stressing you out a bit too, so that's something you need to try to fix. Here's an example of the effect of your tournament strategy as I interpret it, and possibly the reason for your distress. We get AA early on and get all in vs JJ and win. - That's as it should be. Yipee! We wait for another big hand (AT+, JJ+) before making a big play... So we dwindle, dwindle, dwindle, all the time still making the calls trying to hit with our moderate hands like QJ, etc... Winning some, losing more because we miss more often than we hit flops. Maybe getting a few big hands but not getting action. Then we get KK and double up again vs AQ or similar. - Again, that's how it should be. Yipee. But we're not building a big stack because we haven't made enough of those other spots with less than premium hands. Dwindle, dwindle, dwindle... Another double with say AJ vs AT on an Ace high board. - As it should be. Dwindle, dwindle, dwindle... AK all in vs AQ... lose and we're out. - OMG! It's so rigged! How can I go out of tournaments as a favourite all the time?! If you only play big hands in a tournament, you will need to win virtually all of them. You're relying on luck to get you through, and relying on running very well. You should lose one of these spots and it's not running bad when you do. If experience has taught me anything it's that someone who's convinced a site is rigged can not be reasoned with... prove the exception to that, Gamer11. Posted by BorinLoner
Comments
What exactly is ''making the river''?
Recent example just today on my first game
I get AK. I raise from SB and BB calls. Flop comes A Q 6. I raise big. BB calls. the turn is a 3. There is no flush draws on the board. I go all in. BB snap calls and shows 4 7. Can you guess what the river card was? Il give you a clue. I got knocked out.
Instead of sleeping on it, when I lose crazy hands I pull out a real deck and play the same hands again 10 times to see how many times I win or lose it. The conclusion is online poker really isn't the same as a real deal, but then again what site is.
So majority here say to stay aggressive. So does that mean most pockets get all in pushes pre flop?
Another example:
If in a tournament where blinds are high, I am the type to nervously call a raise pre flop with KK, see no ace on the flop and check the flop (if first to act) and wait for another bet to 3 bet or push all in? Good play or bad play in your opinion? If bad play - please say what you would do. And lets say its against a player who is chip leader playing aggressive and playing 50% of their hands (so quite loose or playing a wide range).
Hi Gamer
"What I mean about not making the river is when I have over 10 outs, I wont hit but someone with 3 outs will hit just fine. Especially against me. I dont change my mentality but I do find that I really get the bad end of things"
If I may say so, the problems are in your head. You THINK you get the bad end of things, that's just selective memory at work.
"The conclusion is online poker really isn't the same as a real deal, but then again what site is."
If you think there is a difference between Online poker & what you call "real poker", I'm sorry to say you are wrong. It's just maths, & the maths don't change. Ever. There are no "bent" Online Poker sites. None. Why would there be any, for what purpose or motive?
"Instead of sleeping on it, when I lose crazy hands I pull out a real deck and play the same hands again 10 times to see how many times I win or lose it"
All that does is reinforce in your mind what you believe. 10 hands is utterly meaningless. That "4-7" hand the chap will hit it on the river, ON AVERAGE, in time in 11.
But this is where Variance rears it's two-faced head, & it's variance that makes poker the great game it is, once you learn to embrace it.
Try & replicate that hand by getting a deck of cards & dealing out hands does not work unless you do it 100,000 times. That outcome could come up twice in a row, or not once in 1,000 attempts. That's real poker.
"I am the type to nervously call a raise pre flop with KK, see no ace on the flop and check the flop (if first to act)"
This is subjective, & I'm no expert on NLH, but you are the architect of your own downfall playing Kings like that. Supposing an Ace DOES flop, is Villain guaranteed to have it? He's not, but plenty will rep it. Ask any of the winners here, lads like Matt Bates, & he can have any spanners at all, but will rep that Ace. And you will do the "fit or fold" fold. That's why these kids do so well.
I hope you don't think I'm being over critical - I'm not, I'm trying to help. These problems are in your mind.
Any questions, fire away.
We'll get there, but you need to clear your mind of this "online poker is not real poker" stuff. The maths is the maths is the maths. It's that simple.
Good luck mate.
just smile and except that a lot of the time poker is just a game of luck.
This has to be one of the worst sites for poker. People catch madness. Simple as that. Maths means nothing on this site. 3 outs is as good as having 52 and 15 outs is as good as having 1.
I am sorry I started any debate on this forum page. I will make sure I wont waste my time in the future. I have seen far too much madness against my hands to even bother trying to make sense of it all. This is hands down the worst site for poker.
Lets hope their promotions can keep sucking in players to lose their money. I cant play a single pair of pockets without some magic happening. After losing 3 hands in a row when I was ahead pre flop the final nail in the coffin was QQ vs Q9. Tripes 9's was the end result. That is unreal. A sit n go game where everyone keeps passing on chips until I get involved and lose it all. Players on my table cant even believe it and it keeps happening. So I am not going to change anything about my game. I am not going to let sky's rubbish poker site put doubts in my head about my game. This is not real poker or anywhere close. This is sky bingo with a new name.
To all new players, becareful. You will be told your game needs improving when really this site and how it generates its hands need improve.
And to all the advice. Appreciate it, but you can keep it. This site is no longer my main poker site. Its nothing more than my side chick to raise a little change to keep my sport betting account going. Worst site out!!!
".....the final nail in the coffin was QQ vs Q9. Tripes 9's was the end result.That is unreal "
I'm afraid anyone who thinks that is "unreal", & has not seen it, or its equivalent, hundreds of times, has not played much poker. I'd bet good money you've been on the winning end of similar coups, too. We all have.
Anyway, as to my efforts to help & advise, think I'll file this under
Primary File - FAIL
Secondary File - Lost Causes
The VBOL wherever you choose to play, Mr Gamer.
Over & out.
Gl Gamer.
And again no luck. Qualified for the 10k tournament tonight
This was said by you and sums up the problem very nicely in one line. The problem is not the bad side of variance or anything like that but perception. When on the good side of variance you take it as read that should happen and ignore it only focussing on the bad.
In this quote you said you had no luck and then immediately say that you qualified for a big tournament. A massive chunk of luck and well on the plus aide of variance there. But has not been entered on the positive variance side.
Simply put you will have bad luck at times as will we all but you will have good luck too. You need to understand when this is and except it for what it is and not take it as read that it is totally deserved due to your ability.
When you have your head in the right place you will enjoy poker more and may then be able to focus on things that need it
I dont see the good side of variance much because I win hands where the odds favour me. I even respect when its A10 V K9 that we have pretty much got a coin flip with my ace high giving me a slight edge. I respect the maths of poker but I no longer believe sky poker does. It is VERY rare for me to win when I am behind and even more rare if I am covered. If you consider AK v 66 as me being behind then those are the only situations where I leave it to luck.
My main debate and problem with sky poker is the 2/3 out hands. The countless times I will have someone covered and magic happens is unreal. Im talking about hands like:
AJ V A10
K10 V K8
KK V KQ
AA V 88
etc...
Hands that the villians only have a handful of cards that could save them. Hands that once in a while I can accept being beaten on. But when your best success in these positions feels like you are 50/50 on them you start to notice the frequency of these beats. And almost everytime I am behind...I lose which I can accept if the reverse was anything similar. But that's not the case. Sky loves action. I have people on my table saying "wow" and the things they see happen.
So like I said, before I review my game anymore I am trying out other sites and let me just add so far..so good.