. Isn't what is happening against the spirit of what Sky are trying to promote? A chance for ALL regardless of level? On a level playing field? Interesting. Cheers Posted by Dollie
I might be missing something but I don't understand why it isn't a level playing field. Do these 'professionals' start with more chips? I feel like your implying the unfairness is based on the professional's skill advantage. Poker is a competitive game. Imagine the best tennis players not being allowed to enter a grandslam because it's unfair on their opponents. It's just a ridiculous argument. I feel like you want a satellite to exist where only players below X amount of profit can enter and battle amongst themselves. Sky do promote a chance for all and is probably one of the most recreational orientated sites out there. Everybody does have a chance
I have won a seat and have been playing the 11.50 sats for the cash. I think you seem to be forgetting about travel expenses for the weekend such as food, taxis, flights. Travel expenses for live events can add up very quickly. Lets give some rough estimations on expenses £80 for flights, £20 for return bus ticket from the airport, £200 for hotels, 6 taxi rides for someone who makes it to monday for to and from their hotel £72. Theres £372 and we havnt even included food or drink in that. So the people that have qualified have every right to play the sats for cash. Posted by bearlyther
In Response to UKPC Qualification : I might be missing something but I don't understand why it isn't a level playing field. Do these 'professionals' start with more chips? I feel like your implying the unfairness is based on the professional's skill advantage. Poker is a competitive game. Imagine the best tennis players not being allowed to enter a grandslam because it's unfair on their opponents. It's just a ridiculous argument. I feel like you want a satellite to exist where only players below X amount of profit can enter and battle amongst themselves. Sky do promote a chance for all and is probably one of the most recreational orientated sites out there. Everybody does have a chance Posted by FeelGroggy
I dont think you read dollies post properly.
He quite clearly states ,its going against the principle of the satellite,and i agree with him.
its not a cash laddering tournament,which is what certain players are using it for
I can of course see all sides and I actually sat and had an in depth conversation in the office with somebody about this matter just yesterday. The reality is that we make a promise to DTD saying we are going to send 200 players to DTD for the UKPC. Our task is then to work out how we are going to do that.
I personally designed the satellite structure and that includes the number of guaranteed seats each day and in each final. The reality is that without the liquidity from those that have already secured seats we wouldn't reach that number. If we don't reach that number we may have to reduce our commitment to DTD and in the long run that could even jeopardise the longevity of the UKPC. Of course we would like 10 new players to win a seat every week but the reality is that is not going to happen.
In January alone Sky Poker gave away almost £200,000 in freerolls and as Tikay has said we have given away almost 70 seats to the UKPC in freerolls.
As for tournament tokens, trust me I recognise the need for them and it is something that I will not rest until we have them.
For now I am afraid nothing will change and the reality remains that if you have already won a seat you are as welcome to play satellites as the next guy who has not won a seat.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : I dont think you read dollies post properly. He quite clearly states ,its going against the principle of the satellite,and i agree with him. its not a cash laddering tournament,which is what certain players are using it for Posted by lovejunky
Yes I did read his post properly, multiple times in fact. And yes that was one aspect of his post, but he didn't explain why it wasn't a level playing field, which is what I wanted to know.
In Response to UKPC Qualification : Hi Dollie I agree with you 100% with you on this. I have kicked off on here about this before,and its got me nowhere apart from jeers from the same people who abuse these sats to get extra money in there account. I really sympathise with you,and it must be gut wrenching to go out that way to a person who already has a seat. I was going to try and qualify in the last one this sunday,but ,you know what,in protest to sky poker ,and how they run these sats,and after reading your letter,i might just bite the bullet and pay the £1100 entrance fee to nottingham. Because,for sure, i dont want the same happening to me,as it did to you Posted by lovejunky
To be fair, they are not "abusing the sats", they are perfectly entitled to play them.
It is the same on all sites, with or without Tournamemt Tokens.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : Yes I did read his post properly, multiple times in fact. And yes that was one aspect of his post, but he didn't explain why it wasn't a level playing field, which is what I wanted to know. Posted by FeelGroggy
I can answer this.
theres a certain amount of skill involved in poker,you know this,its why you were tutored yourself.
Its a level playing field for me,my friend.
Dollie is an intelligent and humble man,he doesnt come across as pretentiuos in any way.
For alot of recretional and part time players,its a daunting time in the final with a £1100 at stake,and they will get nothing
but pressure and bullying from regs who already have a seat,stealing blinds etc.
^^^^ "dollies correct,its just morally wrong" Gordon never said it was morally wrong. He said it was "against the spirit of what Sky Poker promotes", which is a very different thing. Posted by Tikay10
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : Thissss. Purely from a players point of view, tourny tokens are worse than the current system. Why deny yourself flexibility. You can have £33 worth of mtt vouchers or you can have £33 pounds to spend on whatever you like. Can anybody explain why they would prefer the vouchers there, given the choice? Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Yes. I cannot attend the UKPC, but if we had Tokens, I could win a seat and delay till next year.
FWIW, I think TKs nailed it and we all choose to play within the framework sky sets.
An interesting option would be to introduce the option of tokens for larger buyin events that one cannot play but I have no issues with the current system.
^^^^ "dollies correct,its just morally wrong" Gordon never said it was morally wrong. He said it was "against the spirit of what Sky Poker promotes", which is a very different thing. Posted by Tikay10
I Apologise if it sounds like im being offensive to certain people with my comments.
In respective ,i would like to applaud sky pokers marketing department,on there new player freerolls for the UKPC.
i know a certain lady complained about it,but i thought it was a brilliant,and very generous offer from sky.
lets hope,with a new influx of fresh blood,these contreversial arguments can become things of the past,with enough numbers made up in all sats
Let me give my point of view on this one. I can of course see all sides and I actually sat and had an in depth conversation in the office with somebody about this matter just yesterday. The reality is that we make a promise to DTD saying we are going to send 200 players to DTD for the UKPC. Our task is then to work out how we are going to do that. I personally designed the satellite structure and that includes the number of guaranteed seats each day and in each final. The reality is that without the liquidity from those that have already secured seats we wouldn't reach that number. If we don't reach that number we may have to reduce our commitment to DTD and in the long run that could even jeopardise the longevity of the UKPC. Of course we would like 10 new players to win a seat every week but the reality is that is not going to happen. In January alone Sky Poker gave away almost £200,000 in freerolls and as Tikay has said we have given away almost 70 seats to the UKPC in freerolls. As for tournament tokens, trust me I recognise the need for them and itis something that I will not rest until we have them. For now I am afraid nothing will change and the reality remains that if you have already won a seat you are as welcome to play satellites as the next guy who has not won a seat.
Posted by Sky_SamT
This bit is interesting.
Ryan, a very successful and knowledgeable pro, closely associated with Sky, believes that tournament tokens are a must.
Sam, a very intelligent and talented employee of Sky thinks that they're a must.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : I can answer this. theres a certain amount of skill involved in poker,you know this,its why you were tutored yourself. Its a level playing field for me,my friend. Dollie is an intelligent and humble man,he doesnt come across as pretentiuos in any way. For alot of recretional and part time players,its a daunting time in the final with a £1100 at stake,and they will get nothing but pressure and bullying from regs who already have a seat,stealing blinds etc. dollies correct,its just morally wrong Posted by lovejunky
I'm not denying the fact its nervewracking playing for 1.1k at stake. 'Stealing blinds, pressure, bullying'- your just explaining aspects of poker :-)
It seems like the justifications of it not being a level playing field are all skill advantage based. This can be applied to all poker competitions in the world, **** it can be applied to any skill game in the world. The recreational players choose to put themselves in that situation just as regs do.
Is it only regs with seats who blind steal etc who are immoral? Are regs without seats okay to do this? I think your very much of the perspective that you shouldn't be able to play satellites for cash. I think you should be able to and have explained why, I think it's something we will inevitably have to agree to disagree on.
I'm not questioning Dollie's character, I understand he's upset. I like to think of myself as a fairly moral person and have no qualms with practicing the 'immoral' acts of playing sats for cash. I just think arguments like 'its not a level playing field' lack a bit of substance and need an explanation.
I still maintain arguments that it isn't a level playing field are simply not valid. It is as level as any skill game, moreso then others perhaps. A bad Chess player will never beat a great chess player, but a bad poker player can beat a great poker player often.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : This bit is interesting. Ryan, a very successful and knowledgeable pro, closely associated with Sky, believes that tournament tokens are a must. Sam, a very intelligent and talented employee of Sky thinks that they're a must. Two questions Who says no then? And why? Posted by Jac35
Because someone would use a 1100 token on a 30p dym lol
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : I Apologise if it sounds like im being offensive to certain people with my comments. In respective ,i would like to applaud sky pokers marketing department,on there new player freerolls for the UKPC. i know a certain lady complained about it,but i thought it was a brilliant,and very generous offer from sky. lets hope,with a new influx of fresh blood,these contreversial arguments can become things of the past,with enough numbers made up in all sats Posted by lovejunky
No need to apologise, Delia, it was not intentional.
It's an emotive debate, for sure, but I do think suggesting players are acting immorally here is an unreasonable assumption.
Let me give my point of view on this one. I can of course see all sides and I actually sat and had an in depth conversation in the office with somebody about this matter just yesterday. The reality is that we make a promise to DTD saying we are going to send 200 players to DTD for the UKPC. Our task is then to work out how we are going to do that. I personally designed the satellite structure and that includes the number of guaranteed seats each day and in each final. The reality is that without the liquidity from those that have already secured seats we wouldn't reach that number. If we don't reach that number we may have to reduce our commitment to DTD and in the long run that could even jeopardise the longevity of the UKPC. Of course we would like 10 new players to win a seat every week but the reality is that is not going to happen. In January alone Sky Poker gave away almost £200,000 in freerolls and as Tikay has said we have given away almost 70 seats to the UKPC in freerolls. As for tournament tokens, trust me I recognise the need for them and it is something that I will not rest until we have them. For now I am afraid nothing will change and the reality remains that if you have already won a seat you are as welcome to play satellites as the next guy who has not won a seat. Posted by Sky_SamT
I too am curious about this comment.
We have tournament tokens already.
100's if not not thousands of £2.30 tokens are given weekly to players earning between 100 and 499 points
Others are provided as part of cross-site promotions
There are 2 issues with them that have been widely commented on in Poker Chat and the Feedback area.
1. The default is that you use them not keep them and it is very easy to click through and use them accidentally.
2. They have short life spans - typically a week
For a low stakes rec like me the ideal would be to be able save them up and use them for entry into a big tourney otherwise they are basically just part of the bankroll with a playing restriction.
I play poker(as a rec) to make money. Yes, it's fun,I've made some great friends and had some mad weekends playing poker, but ultimately it's about the money. I've qualified for the UKPC for roughly £16 but I've no problem with those who've already won a seat playing sats for cash. Why? Because poker is about making money and these players recognise that the fields will be softer than an MTT were 10th place pays £1100. So if they want to buy-in again somewhere along the sat structure, their money is as welcome as mine. Also, it's not just pro's playing again, there will be quite a few better than average amateurs taking advantage of this. 'Its unfair that these players bully, put pressure and steal blinds' errrrr that's what good players do and I can guarantee that if you do qualify for the UKPC, it's going to be no different live.
May I suggest that time spent studying Sat strategy would benefit those struggling to qualify. Having read up on it myself, it made a massive difference,esp when you get close to the bubble. I simply tried to avoid flips and 60/40 situations for my whole stack.
I understand your frustration but liquidity would be seriously reduced if folk were not playing these for "cash".
Isn't what is happening against the spirit of what Sky are trying to promote? A chance for ALL regardless of level? On a level playing field?
Sky want to put on a big event to publicise the site and consequently to grow the site. Not sure exactly how it works but Sky sponsor the UKPC while it's a DTD event, however as part of the sponsorship I would imagine Sky must need to fulfil a certain % of seats for the UKPC.
As to the last point, it's amazing sky have given away 60 seats, as Tikay mentioned, through freerolls or promotions. In fact, in the last few months Sky have significantly increased their offering and promotions to as wide a player base as possible.
I was fortunate enough to win a seat for UKPC back in December and have been playing the satellites for cash since then. I am very much not a professional (as most people who play against me will testify!). I just find that I do rather better at satellites than standard MTT's.
A few points to chuck into the mix.
1) When you get to the UKPC itself you will find "professionals" who fire a number of bullets re-buying each day to get the largest stack possible into Day 2. Does this give them an advantage over recs with only one shot? Absolutely. Is this unfair? Absolutely not. The rules of the game are published clearly before it starts, if you don't like them, don't enter. Same with the satellites.
2) Morally wrong playing satellites for cash? Don't like this accusation at all. Rules say I can, Sky is happy that I do, where am I being "immoral"? Do I feel really sorry for the guy I might knock out on the bubble who is dreaming of their seat? Yes of course. Do I fold my Aces to "protect him"? Absolutely not.
3) Tommy's suggestion of tournament token is an interesting one. I wouldn't object, but struggle to see that this is in any way preferable to having the cash. One point perhaps not picked up is that not every player playing for cash is profitable. I might have had 6 shots to win the one additional seat in the final, meaning I have put £1,500 into the "pot" for the £1,000 of cash I take out. Would it be fair to then limit the £1,000 to a token?
Anyhow, I wish everyone luck in the final week of qualifying and look forward to seeing as many of you as possible in Nottingham.
Gosh. Interesting one this. I was fortunate enough to win a seat for UKPC back in December and have been playing the satellites for cash since then. I am very much not a professional (as most people who play against me will testify!). I just find that I do rather better at satellites than standard MTT's. A few points to chuck into the mix. 1) When you get to the UKPC itself you will find "professionals" who fire a number of bullets re-buying each day to get the largest stack possible into Day 2. Does this give them an advantage over recs with only one shot? Absolutely. Is this unfair? Absolutely not. The rules of the game are published clearly before it starts, if you don't like them, don't enter. Same with the satellites. 2) Morally wrong playing satellites for cash? Don't like this accusation at all. Rules say I can, Sky is happy that I do, where am I being "immoral"? Do I feel really sorry for the guy I might knock out on the bubble who is dreaming of their seat? Yes of course. Do I fold my Aces to "protect him"? Absolutely not. 3) Tommy's suggestion of tournament token is an interesting one. I wouldn't object, but struggle to see that this is in any way preferable to having the cash. One point perhaps not picked up is that not every player playing for cash is profitable. I might have had 6 shots to win the one additional seat in the final, meaning I have put £1,500 into the "pot" for the £1,000 of cash I take out. Would it be fair to then limit the £1,000 to a token? Anyhow, I wish everyone luck in the final week of qualifying and look forward to seeing as many of you as possible in Nottingham. Matt Posted by mattprawn
Guys and Gals whatever the perceived "Rights or Wrongs" about this issue,
I Have Highlighted one word and one word only...... and if we all read Gordons' OP at NO POINT DOES HE EVER CALL ANYONE IMMORAL OR MORALLY WRONG
Comments
???????????????
I dont think you read dollies post properly.
It is the same on all sites, with or without Tournamemt Tokens.
I can answer this.
^^^^
"dollies correct,its just morally wrong"
Gordon never said it was morally wrong. He said it was "against the spirit of what Sky Poker promotes", which is a very different thing.
Yes,sorry Tikay buddy,
FWIW, I think TKs nailed it and we all choose to play within the framework sky sets.
An interesting option would be to introduce the option of tokens for larger buyin events that one cannot play but I have no issues with the current system.
I Apologise if it sounds like im being offensive to certain people with my comments.
It's an emotive debate, for sure, but I do think suggesting players are acting immorally here is an unreasonable assumption.
I understand your frustration but liquidity would be seriously reduced if folk were not playing these for "cash".
Isn't what is happening against the spirit of what Sky are trying to promote? A chance for ALL regardless of level? On a level playing field?
Sky want to put on a big event to publicise the site and consequently to grow the site. Not sure exactly how it works but Sky sponsor the UKPC while it's a DTD event, however as part of the sponsorship I would imagine Sky must need to fulfil a certain % of seats for the UKPC.
As to the last point, it's amazing sky have given away 60 seats, as Tikay mentioned, through freerolls or promotions. In fact, in the last few months Sky have significantly increased their offering and promotions to as wide a player base as possible.
I was fortunate enough to win a seat for UKPC back in December and have been playing the satellites for cash since then. I am very much not a professional (as most people who play against me will testify!). I just find that I do rather better at satellites than standard MTT's.
A few points to chuck into the mix.
1) When you get to the UKPC itself you will find "professionals" who fire a number of bullets re-buying each day to get the largest stack possible into Day 2. Does this give them an advantage over recs with only one shot? Absolutely. Is this unfair? Absolutely not. The rules of the game are published clearly before it starts, if you don't like them, don't enter. Same with the satellites.
2) Morally wrong playing satellites for cash? Don't like this accusation at all. Rules say I can, Sky is happy that I do, where am I being "immoral"? Do I feel really sorry for the guy I might knock out on the bubble who is dreaming of their seat? Yes of course. Do I fold my Aces to "protect him"? Absolutely not.
3) Tommy's suggestion of tournament token is an interesting one. I wouldn't object, but struggle to see that this is in any way preferable to having the cash. One point perhaps not picked up is that not every player playing for cash is profitable. I might have had 6 shots to win the one additional seat in the final, meaning I have put £1,500 into the "pot" for the £1,000 of cash I take out. Would it be fair to then limit the £1,000 to a token?
Anyhow, I wish everyone luck in the final week of qualifying and look forward to seeing as many of you as possible in Nottingham.
Matt