So I've read through this thread. Funny really, I think I've spent every day on this site being as helpful, open and chatty to every single player who has chatted to me and I've gone out of my way on several occasions to really push a tourney schedule and promotions which should not only benefit all levels of bankroll but primarily focus on recreational players. Then I read that I have done things previously which are 'morally wrong.' That actually really hurts to read. And I am extremely bothered by the comment. But instead of me being all butthurt let's try to be constructive. Just as a asterisk to this convo, while I have played several UKPC sats for cash in the past I haven't done this this time around as I have another place to be the Saturday of that weekend so I am very doubtful for making it to Notts. As I side point I never played SPT sats for cash because I felt that was much more of a community event, the UKPC really isn't. People playing sats for cash do keep the guaranteed number of seats and therefore the seats available to recreational players up. There is not the liquidity on this site to maintain those guarantees for the length that these sats run for imo. Those seats would snap be reduced. Then less people enter. Then they reduce some more and so on and so forth. Now a solution, which I suggested at the in person forum they held at the last UKPC which was designed to help improve the site, was 'Tournament Cash.' For those who don't know, tournament cash is essentially credit you can only spend on the site and not available for withdrawal. I would want to see additional sats won be credited as this personally (and very importantly you would be able to enter/reenter Sky branded live events like the UKPC with tourney cash). Why would this help? Because the money stays in the site and liquidity is not as adversely affected, in fact it is ploughed back into Sky MTTs and contributes towards existing guarantees, helping to maintain them for all. Also for people who genuinely want more than one seat for the UKPC in order to reenter, this is a much quicker and easier way to do so. Lastly, this strikes a better balance between people who are playing the sats for cash and those (recreational and other) who just want to win that one seat as the sats for cash group are discouraged due to the cash won from this not being available for withdrawal. I feel it helps everyone and have been suggesting this for an age. But of course instead of people either getting behind this suggestion which for my money helps the player pool as a whole, top to bottom, or people intelligently arguing any flaws in my suggestion or heavens to Betsy coming up with a better solution, what happens? I and others getting accused of doing things that are morally wrong. My first reaction is to say that there is absolutely nothing morally wrong with this. My second is to say be extremely careful when you throw around things like questioning peoples' morality on a matter which is opinions. My final reaction is 'How dare you.' Like I said, I am extremely bothered by the comment. Posted by TommyD
Morning Tommy.
I will address this post and try to quell this distain being directed at me by a few on here. We have debated this on many occasions, and yet again it has come up on the forum and mushroomed into several posts on the subject like it normally does.
Firstly, I will personally apologise to you and others if my use of the word 'morally' has offended you. I did put it originally in inverted commas, as at the time, I wasn't quite sure if that was the correct word to use. Obv, it wasn't. I am not as intelligent as yourself or Tikay when attempting to discuss things through the written word.
Here is the thing though....I agree with some of your points but also agree with what Dollie was trying to say in the first place. We do not need mud slinging on this forum even though some are encouraged by others to do so.
I play sats for cash. Yep, I do, and for all the reasons you and others have mentioned. I even won two seats to the last SPT and two seats to the roller last Sunday. So, I am not going to be hypocritical and say it is totally wrong and then do the opposite.
I think however that the overall consensus of opinion on here is that things could be improved in this area. Sky Poker's commitment to the rec player is without question. Improvement to the satellite programme though, is hopefully on the horizon.
Tournament cash/tokens may be the step forward we need now. Nice to hear that a select forum group were listened to at the last UKPC. Hopefully, actions will speak louder than words from the other side now.
I see today that seats (x50) are being given away by another source and there are still plenty of seats to be won on here too. I maybe a bit cynical here but that in my eyes looks like a last minute mini panic to ensure the guarantee is met. Hey, I hope it does smash it but please listen to all sides of this debate first,which hopefully improves things in the future for all.
How about sats for players only that are not qualified yet for the target tournament? Again, points against already given (numbers/seats etc) but lets have some points for to attempt some balance...
1) A player defo gaining a seat.
2) No 'bad' vibes about sat for cash players.
3) If guarantee is not met, then there is just a cash payout.
This is always a heavily emotive subject. I haven't read all the responses in full but like I did state in my 1st post...it is a grey area.
By the way, I haven't tried any sats as I am actually working that w/end. However, I do play the rewards f/roll most nights so if I win a seat by default, I will be selling on here
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : Guys and Gals whatever the perceived "Rights or Wrongs" about this issue, I Have Highlighted one word and one word only...... and if we all read Gordons' OP at NO POINT DOES HE EVER CALL ANYONE IMMORAL OR MORALLY WRONG Posted by scouse_red
No he doesn't as Tikay also pointed out he questions the principle and whether it is in keeping with the spirit of offering qualification through satelittes. Which leads to the same debate but without an inflammotary and highly emotive accusation.
The "Morally wrong" comment was introduced to the thread by another poster.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : Guys and Gals whatever the perceived "Rights or Wrongs" about this issue, I Have Highlighted one word and one word only...... and if we all read Gordons' OP at NO POINT DOES HE EVER CALL ANYONE IMMORAL OR MORALLY WRONG Posted by scouse_red
Agreed. I was referring to later posts and have no issue whatsoever with the OP, perfectly valid to raise the subject as a point of debate.
Similarly I note the poster who mentioned morality has also revisited the context to this. No offence taken, just thought the point was worth addressing.
Maxally, if a tournament doesn't reach it's and then you cancel/turn into a normal MTT it defeats the point of having a guarantee. Secondly, if you've regged for a sat, I doubt you'll wanna play it as a normal MTT.
Sats for only unqualified players, whilst a noble idea, are IMO unlikely to work very well, esp when the normal Sats are still available. I'm not saying they shouldn't be trialled but I'd imagine Sky are very unlikely to offer guarantees to compete with the normal sats, esp closer to the event when there's less unqualified players available.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : For alot of recretional and part time players,its a daunting time in the final with a £1100 at stake,and they will get nothing but pressure and bullying from regs who already have a seat,stealing blinds etc. dollies correct,its just morally wrong Posted by lovejunky
There are 2 types of players playing sats for cash-regulars and non-regulars. The former are boosting liquidity by playing, as the money will be recycled on Sky. However, non-regs will just keep the cash without playing further, hence the need for TTs.
In relation to "level playing field" this will never exist. As an example, the live pros will be entering the main tournament 2 or 3 times, not once. In addition, one of the reasons that there will be way more players on the Saturday is to take advantage of the perceived "fish"", including Sky players.
The only site I can recall not allowing people to play sats once qualified was i-poker, just before an i-series that lost an absolute fortune...
I have won a seat to the final on Sunday through a FREEROLL.
I cannot ever be considered a professional or even a good player and think that to be really really honest I got lucky. I honestly think though that it is sometimes all about a bit of skill (which I have a bit ha ha) and a load of luck. I muddle along week by week up and down like a tarts drawers mostly. But I love the game especially lately as I'm stuck indoors after my latest health spat. I've had the opportunity on Sky to win a seat to Vegas just missed out by 1, a seat at UKIP last year and now Nottingham so really how can things really be geared towards the rich or the professional. Its unlucky some people have not won a chance at the final or a seat but you know what Please just enjoy that fact that you can play against a much lower amount of people than some other sites and if the lucky poker gods are with you, you will go far. lots of luck to everyone, and especially me on Sunday lol.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : I too am curious about this comment. We have tournament tokens already. 100's if not not thousands of £2.30 tokens are given weekly to players earning between 100 and 499 points Others are provided as part of cross-site promotions There are 2 issues with them that have been widely commented on in Poker Chat and the Feedback area. 1. The default is that you use them not keep them and it is very easy to click through and use them accidentally. 2. They have short life spans - typically a week For a low stakes rec like me the ideal would be to be able save them up and use them for entry into a big tourney otherwise they are basically just part of the bankroll with a playing restriction. Posted by Phantom66
Thanks for this P66, i think what you mention was "kinda " promised, but its never beed fixed, tokens we can save..and the default being NO, dont use the token for this event.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : ??????????????? what are you talking about?? Posted by lovejunky
On sites like party and stars they have package satelites. So for example you win the seat plus say $500 to put towards your expenses. On sky you play the satelite for the seat not the package so some people like to play additional satelites after they win there 1st seat as there is no package option.
Having been on Sky many years & having had the pleasure of meeting Gordon several times albeit several years ago now, I felt I could add something to this whole debate.
Gordon is a great guy. You can tell he's a bit frustrated that someone who knocked him out already had a seat, which is only natural. Having said that. That person is perfectly entitled to be in the satellite as stated above, many times. Nowadays poker is a lot tougher and players will look to find their edges in various ways, one of these being satellites in which they feel they have a considerable edge in certain spots. Its the same in cash & tournaments across all sites.
The only way to give yourself a good chance of getting a seat is by having a big enough roll to try lots of satts. & don't give up, because you failed a couple of times. Or to go away and seriously study satellite strategy. Which I understand a recreational player may not have time to do. Poker is a dog eat dog world and its not going to change anytime soon.
Its a shame Sky stopped SPT's as I felt these were more catered to recreational players in terms of price range and accessibility. Maybe one day they will come back?!
Until then I don't think there is much more to add or complain about. I'm afraid poker is a very tough game nowadays and it will probably only get tougher. Just try to remember why you got into the game in the first place, for the fun and the thrill of possibly winning something at the end of it. Winning isn't guaranteed, just like your aces aren't guaranteed to hold at any point.
Best of luck to all and hope to see all of you at the UKPC
Okay to add my 4penny worth lol. I have won a seat to the final on Sunday through a FREEROLL . I cannot ever be considered a professional or even a good player and think that to be really really honest I got lucky. I honestly think though that it is sometimes all about a bit of skill (which I have a bit ha ha) and a load of luck. I muddle along week by week up and down like a tarts drawers mostly. But I love the game especially lately as I'm stuck indoors after my latest health spat. I've had the opportunity on Sky to win a seat to Vegas just missed out by 1, a seat at UKIP last year and now Nottingham so really how can things really be geared towards the rich or the professional. Its unlucky some people have not won a chance at the final or a seat but you know what Please just enjoy that fact that you can play against a much lower amount of people than some other sites and if the lucky poker gods are with you, you will go far. lots of luck to everyone, and especially me on Sunday lol. Nannypat66 Posted by Nannypat66
I have the same problem at cash tables,same players all the time. The problem is not they are the same players but they are better than me.It's an unfortunate fact that there are a handfull of good players who do very well.What next, Should we not allow players who qualified for a previous ukpc.If you think there are a few sharks around wait till you get to nottingham. I'm not a big fan of many things on this site but the way sats and tournys work is a huge selling point. It's one of the reasons i stay at this site.The 5 to 1 and 10 to 1 structures are fantastic and give players of all levels a real chance along with what i consider the over generous use of freebie promotions.
Be very careful what you wish for.The tournament cash/tokens will not solve the ops original question. Once started they will add more T & C to the tokens/ tickets. Expiry dates, which tournaments they can be used in, not allowed to use them for a re buy etc.
I came to this site when i had a huge problems with tournament tokens on i poker site(i have no issues naming the site but not sure if im allowed on this forum).Some disappeared. I was told they had expired.They kept citing T & C every other paragraph. They had not expired and took months and threat of legal action to get money back. Other tickets vanished when the end tournament got cancelled.Again after a long dispute i got my money back but when i pointed out others in a similar situation would have lost monies they simply ignored this. They would have to raise concern to get their money back. Other issues as highlighted in above paragraph.
Remember money is always yours and to spend when and where you like. Tokens and tickets belong to the company and they decide how and when you use it. A head of poker told me they account for a percentage of these tickets that expire as PROFITS.And if you want to leave for what ever reason, they don't have to give you cash for the tickets.
Suggestions
People who have a seat not allowed to win another through the freerolls
Freeroll - only for players who have played x amount of sats and not qualified
The way forward has to be to encourage more players to join rather than discourage existing loyal players.Another site has taken a novel approach where you can change your identity on a reg basis to stop bumhunting. Would it help if op did not know who he was up against and similarly would it hinder the pros? We should look to find novel and new ways to solve old problems.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : On sites like party and stars they have package satelites. So for example you win the seat plus say $500 to put towards your expenses. On sky you play the satelite for the seat not the package so some people like to play additional satelites after they win there 1st seat as there is no package option. Posted by bearlyther
Im fully aware other sites provide expenses with their sat packages.
But i think youll find its mostly for oversea packages,where a flight is required.so ,of course they cater for this in the prize.
However ,in your post,you seem to be jibbering on about buses,and food expenses.
I hardly think dollie will have much sympathy for your need ,you feel ,for skypoker to cover your supper time trip over to Nandos
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : Im fully aware other sites provide expenses with their sat packages. But i think youll find its mostly for oversea packages,where a flight is required.so ,of course they cater for this in the prize. However ,in your post,you seem to be jibbering on about buses,and food expenses. I hardly think dollie will have much sympathy for your need ,you feel ,for skypoker to cover your supper time trip over to Nandos Posted by lovejunky
Think you will find that many of the qualifiers infact do need a flight from were they live so please get your facts right before you say something. Who said i was asking for sympathy i was stating an obvious fact of expenses of live events and many players both professionals and recreational players play further satelites to cover travel expenses.
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : Think you will find that many of the qualifiers infact do need a flight from were they live so please get your facts right before you say something. Who said i was asking for sympathy i was stating an obvious fact of expenses of live events and many players both professionals and recreational players play further satelites to cover travel expenses. Posted by bearlyther
ive been to one ukpc it was fantastic i hold it up as one of the best days of my life and i freerolled
i wont be doing it again in a hurry tho mainly cuz it cost me neary £400 in expenses all told and im from Stoke but thems the breaks when your married 2 kids one whos in uni and a mortgage so i understand what your saying bearly
Also dont think anyone has mentioned If you get knocked out you can buy in again, so winning a couple of seats mean you can have a couple of goes at it. Posted by stuarty117
In Response to Re: UKPC Qualification : Again, points against already given (numbers/seats etc) but lets have some points for to attempt some balance... 1) A player defo gaining a seat. 2) No 'bad' vibes about sat for cash players. 3) If guarantee is not met, then there is just a cash payout. Posted by MAXALLY
I haven't played any sats or won a seat via another method to the UKPC. This would be great for me. I'd get to play in a satellite with a hugely weakened field and thus very +ev for me. It would also be good for lots of other reg players like me that haven't won a seat.
What do you imagine the knock on effect of introducing such a thing will be?
Early satellites will generate less runners. Regs won't want to enter the smaller satellites early in the week because they will have no idea what the field will be like on Sunday. They'll leave it till the last minute and then see what the reg-rec ratio is like and decide if it's good enough to play or to wait till next week.
The knock on effect is that Sky generate far fewer seats. The tournament guarantee isn't met and DTD lose out and Sky loses out. It can't put on as many great promotions that are great for recreationals.
Every form of poker is about making money. Why should satellites be any different?
Worth re-visiting Sky Sam's post here, & reading between the lines.
"....In January alone Sky Poker gave away almost £200,000 in freerolls and as Tikay has said we have given away almost 70 seats to the UKPC in freerolls.
As for tournament tokens, trust me I recognise the need for them and it is something that I will not rest until we have them.
For now I am afraid nothing will change and the reality remains that if you have already won a seat you are as welcome to play satellites as the next guy who has not won a seat."
So The Business agrees, T-Tokens would be a useful addition, but in the near term, it's not likely to happen. In effect, it makes no difference at all to the perceived problem here, not one bit.
When Sky committed to 200 seats, before the UKPC was even announced, they scheduled how they would divvi up the seats - Satellites, Promos, Freerolls etc. Nothing has deviated from Plan A.
The satellite system here, for all the complaints, works well, & enables recreational players to qualify for all the bigger MTT's here, not just UKPC, or Punta Cana, or VLV, but regular stuff like Super Roller & nightly Main Events. All levels of players get a shot at playing these, & let's not take for granted, to a "small-ball" player, qualifying for these events is a magic moment.
Tell you what, Gordon, you certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons here, a well-constructed opening post can yield a remarkably good debate, & this one certainly did.
We saw all sorts, Sky Poker lovers & haters, agendas being aired, a few insults thrown around, very little sarcasm, a debate on perceived immorality, a hare-brained suggestion or two, & some really interesting replies. It even tempted Pretty Boy James to make a rare post, & a fine post it was, too.
A perfect example of how a constructive & genuinely well-intended opening post can be a good thing.
I don't agree with you on this one Gordon, but my respect for you & your views remains immense.
Comments
Agreed. I was referring to later posts and have no issue whatsoever with the OP, perfectly valid to raise the subject as a point of debate.
Similarly I note the poster who mentioned morality has also revisited the context to this. No offence taken, just thought the point was worth addressing.
Matt
There are 2 types of players playing sats for cash-regulars and non-regulars. The former are boosting liquidity by playing, as the money will be recycled on Sky. However, non-regs will just keep the cash without playing further, hence the need for TTs.
In relation to "level playing field" this will never exist. As an example, the live pros will be entering the main tournament 2 or 3 times, not once. In addition, one of the reasons that there will be way more players on the Saturday is to take advantage of the perceived "fish"", including Sky players.
The only site I can recall not allowing people to play sats once qualified was i-poker, just before an i-series that lost an absolute fortune...
GL to all who qualify
I have won a seat to the final on Sunday through a FREEROLL.
I cannot ever be considered a professional or even a good player and think that to be really really honest I got lucky. I honestly think though that it is sometimes all about a bit of skill (which I have a bit ha ha) and a load of luck. I muddle along week by week up and down like a tarts drawers mostly. But I love the game especially lately as I'm stuck indoors after my latest health spat.
I've had the opportunity on Sky to win a seat to Vegas just missed out by 1, a seat at UKIP last year and now Nottingham so really how can things really be geared towards the rich or the professional.
Its unlucky some people have not won a chance at the final or a seat but you know what Please just enjoy that fact that you can play against a much lower amount of people than some other sites and if the lucky poker gods are with you, you will go far.
lots of luck to everyone, and especially me on Sunday lol.
Nannypat66
Im fully aware other sites provide expenses with their sat packages.
The knock on effect is that Sky generate far fewer seats. The tournament guarantee isn't met and DTD lose out and Sky loses out. It can't put on as many great promotions that are great for recreationals.
Worth re-visiting Sky Sam's post here, & reading between the lines.
So The Business agrees, T-Tokens would be a useful addition, but in the near term, it's not likely to happen. In effect, it makes no difference at all to the perceived problem here, not one bit.
When Sky committed to 200 seats, before the UKPC was even announced, they scheduled how they would divvi up the seats - Satellites, Promos, Freerolls etc. Nothing has deviated from Plan A.
The satellite system here, for all the complaints, works well, & enables recreational players to qualify for all the bigger MTT's here, not just UKPC, or Punta Cana, or VLV, but regular stuff like Super Roller & nightly Main Events. All levels of players get a shot at playing these, & let's not take for granted, to a "small-ball" player, qualifying for these events is a magic moment.
Tell you what, Gordon, you certainly put the cat amongst the pigeons here, a well-constructed opening post can yield a remarkably good debate, & this one certainly did.
We saw all sorts, Sky Poker lovers & haters, agendas being aired, a few insults thrown around, very little sarcasm, a debate on perceived immorality, a hare-brained suggestion or two, & some really interesting replies. It even tempted Pretty Boy James to make a rare post, & a fine post it was, too.
A perfect example of how a constructive & genuinely well-intended opening post can be a good thing.
I don't agree with you on this one Gordon, but my respect for you & your views remains immense.