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What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?

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  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2016
    When cards are turned over for allies, all can see.

    But mucked hands are mucked for all.

    Even the players involved cannot see them in the HH
  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:
    I didn't bring huds into it. Your original thread title included the word and you just made a 6 point post detailing how huds and sharkscope are similar. You also introduced the idea of railscope into the mix and made further comparisons. It was that that I was rebutting. If you aren't comfortable with scope you can opt out. It doesn't seem a massive issue to me, and I'm genuinely puzzled by the reactions in this thread. I imagine more people enjoy using scope than not, hence sky allowing it. I also firmly believe it promotes games and the site which may be another reason.
    Posted by TeddyBloat
    because you asked me to #sigh
  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2016
    I asked you to clarify why you thought sharkscope and a site offering databases of detailed notes and HHs where similar, yes.

    I remain perplexed as to why 'railscope', huds and aussies site are being lumped together in this thread

    I remain perplexed as to why the results of poker tournaments bejng posted on a site you can opt out of is harmful to a player or a huge privacy issue that cant be easily resolved without banning it for the vast majority that evidently enjoy looking at their own or others stats.

    How many abuses of promotions or incidents of collusion have been uncovered by forum users using sharkscope btw?

    I can think of 4 in my few years on the forum.

  • raggy94raggy94 Member Posts: 166
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:
    I asked you to clarify why you thought sharkscope and a site offering databases of detailed notes and HHs where similar, yes. I remain perplexed as to why 'railscope', huds and aussies site are being lumped together in this thread I remain perplexed as to why the results of poker tournaments bejng posted on a site you can opt out of is harmful to a player or a huge privacy issue that cant be easily resolved without banning it for the vast majority that evidently enjoy looking at their own or others stats. How many abuses of promotions or incidents of collusion have been uncovered by forum users using sharkscope btw? I can think of 4 in my few years on the forum.
    Posted by TeddyBloat

    Should preclude this by saying i think Aussies site is fine/good for the same reasons as you. Actually inspired me when the leaderboards started being posted a year ago to start playing a few more £11 Bounty Hunters, just for the fun/challenge aspect of competing with peers over a meaningful sample at some point.

    With regards to the bolded bit though, I think this myth of huds/ Aussiescope being similar was first perpetuated by the author of the site itself both in the 'Wolf in sheeps clohing' and 'whale' threads, both of which included advice on how to maybe play/ adapt versus these particular player types. It was at this point I think where the line in some peoples minds maybe became a bit hazy and a grey area was created.


  • Darkangel7Darkangel7 Member Posts: 2,585
    edited March 2016
    I like the term railscope might even tm it ;). Gelders I know exactly where your coming from and using me as an example is fine. Doesn't bother me in the slightest (so no arguing please with that one). At least when I'm railing you know I'm there!  What about the other railers that don't put anything in chat. I didn't know you could put notes on players when you are railing a table. See I am just thick. I do need teaching about how to use notes properly and what exactly to put hands wise on players instead of obsenaties or pleasant comments.
  • Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : i've explained it enough. i don't know why you are bringing HUDs into it so much (as this isn't about them) or why you are baffled.  All I'm saying is that for various reasons i don't like people providing or selling information about me, particularly people that mine that data, and especially those that don't fulfil the requirements of the data privacy act. Compared to stars sky has a stronger line re HUDs, which I praise them for, but a weaker one re Sharky which i'm less happy about, and i'm wondering why and where they draw the line.
    Posted by GELDY
    It's the Data Protection Act (1998) and aussiescope/sharkscope are not in breach of it by publishing publically available information about "you" using only a poker alias - which only "you" and skypoker have sufficient other context to make that data personally identifiable.

    If Aussie collects other personal data about subscribers or opt-outers then he will need to comply with the Data Protection Act.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 173,736
    edited March 2016


    ^^^

    +1 to that, it must be stressed that Online Results Databases such as Sharky & Rob's site do not even remotely contravene the DPA. It's no different to publishing football scores, or the local Darts League results, or Gary's Results Thread, the information is freely available in the domain

    When we  you play Online Poker, lots of sites will be gathering data on us, no matter what site we play on.
     
    The screen-names are not part of the DPA requirement, it's the information behind them that is sensitive.

    When a player signs up to an Online Poker site, they are required to give all sorts of data - DOB, age, identity, etc. That info is subject to DPA regulations, & must ONLY be used for it's intended purpose. It may not be disseminated or sold, it's private. The scree-names are NOT private, but there is no linkage. The sites that gather & collate the results of MTT's & DYM's have no access to the personal details, only the screen-names.
     
    Some may not like that, but it's a fact of life, & will never change, & if we play Online Poker, sites will gather data. None of that conflicts in any way whatsoever with the DPA or "privacy rules".   
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 173,736
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? :
    What happened to jumpers for goal posts? Well the poker analogy has to be a diminishing poker economy? poker books, training sites, scopes, HUDs, software, coaching. Some of these things sky disfavours. All those things that we've all taken part in, which in effect takes cash out of the poker pyramid have slowly caused a levelling of the playing field and the slow reduction of the poker economy. Human nature, grab a quick buck and to **** with the consequences.
     It attracts people to games. based upon what? your opinion. TimmyRaRa's blog attracts people to SNGs, but it doesnt post his findings on all the poorer players hes presumably encountered. Nor does it provide stats. @TK. I think my last comment is totally just. Sky have sat back and allowed this to happen. You have no control over aussie site as he himself has already hinted. If/As his site becomes more successful, sky players will be gifting money to a third party site and not into skys economy. GG everyone.
    Posted by suzy666

    That's not correct Suzy.

    I'm unsure what you mean by "allowed this to happen". Allow what to happen?

    I said in my 2nd post, right at the start of the thread.....


    "It is a Mod Decision to permit it here, & I'll not hide behind anyone, it was 100% my decision to allow it, as I believe it's done primarily in the players best interests, is well-intended, & the info which we see linked to on this Community is free to view. I was not aware until yesterday there was an additional, optional, fee based service, but if I understand it correctly, that's an optional extra"


    This refers to Rob linking to his site, which now has an option to purchase some stuff, though the vast majority remains free to view.

    The rest of the debate - as to whether such sites should be allowed to exist, exactly what it is (it is NOT a Hud), or whether it breaches privacy laws is a totally different subject - it was just as to whether he could or should be able to link to it which fell under my jurisdiction. There is nothing improper about the site. So when you wrote "Sky have done nothing, as usual", I thought that unfair, as I had clearly stated it was my responsibility, & I was attending to it, & suggested we have this debate. I was just challenging the "as usual", I attend to everything on this Forum in a reasonably prompt & efficient manner, or try to.
     
    The Business COULD ask me to change my view, or they could instruct me, but they have done neither.
     
    I absolutely agree that the option to pay for some extras does change things, & because of a variety of factors, it did make things very difficult.
     
    I genuinely believe it was well-intended, was very popular with most, & Rob was actually doing something for poker.

    For context, somewhere between 3% & 5% of Sky Poker players use this forum, so 95%+ don't, & their recourse is via CC. There has not been any, or at least any measurable volume, of complaints about the site. 

    I think we may have been at cross purposes, & I hope this clarifies it.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 173,736
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:
    I presume Tikay is pondering. Or chatting with his Brief. lol.
    Posted by chilling
    Pondering? No, I was paying close attention to the thread every day, including throughout the UKPC.

    Presumably you missed Rob's post a day earlier.....

     "....now, because of notes like yours, i choose not to post results, nor best player on the forum.  i have done so because it has been fun.  it is intended to be interesting to forum readers.  i do not need to do it, i choose to.  but there is a limit to the abuse that should be tolerated.

    ........

    no matter, i choose not to post these things on the forum.  this takes any decision away from tikay.  it is all superfluous...."


    And Rob has not posted anything on the Forum since he wrote that, either about his site, or anything else. Nobody seems to have commented upon that. The insults & sarcasm added nothing to the debate, &, imo, reflected badly on the authors. It was a debate, there was no need for personal insults in my opinion.

    That vilification has even spilled over on to the poker Tables, & for the last 2 evenings, I've had to observe a player on my table making sarcastic jibes at Rob & myself, which I think is bang out of order. Rob can't defend himself against those comments, & I try to keep business, & my own leisure time playing poker, completely separate, so I just had to stay schtum & observe these things being said.  

    Let's just try & put some context on this. Rob was a very popular (with most, not all) members here, he helped with lots of things, aside from his results database - Jackpot Updates, prompts when a Tourney was missing from the schedule, all sorts. His site & those "Hero Cards" received many glowing tributes, & requests for Hero Cards.
     
    Sentiment changed after the "whale" thread, & I agree, I think that was wrong, & this accelerated when the option to pay for a particular part was made available, I get that too. I get all that, I do.
     
    Around 9 months ago, I forget exactly, but it was just before the time I was given responsibility for this Forum by the then Head of Poker, Rob got a chat ban here. There was overwhelming support for him to be reinstated. Rob, myself & The Business worked together, over a long period, to get him reinstated. I think that was the right thing to do, as - imo - the ban was a mistake, a complete misunderstanding. When Rob was reinstated, there was much warmth shown that he had returned. 

    It's just my opinion, but I think he's a good man, & means well, & that sentiment seemed widely held. He has not turned into some dreadful person overnight, so I'm as puzzled by the animosity & insults as anything, to be honest.

    It now seems he is lost to this Community. To my mind, that's a significant loss to us, & I think it's very sad.

    Anyway, it is what it is.

    Peace to you all.       
     
  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited March 2016
    helllooooo

    mr invisible here (other than to teddy - i know you can see me so please no more talk of huds)

    so Aussie has gone off in a huff because a couple of people from the whole of sky poker has upset him. and that's the only thing on my thread worthy of discusion? someone who refused to engage in a rational debate about his datamining application is the victim!

    oh, other than because the letter of the law Data Protection Act (1998) doesn't count so we should all be happy to have our worries about privacy shoved up our ar*e. 

    must admit i'm rather disappointed. 

  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2016
    You've had your concerns directly addressed by numerous people in this thread, TK included.

    Your lack of understanding of data protection laws, HUDs, HH datamining sites and sky poker policy / forum policy has been specifically addressed in detail and in a calm, reasoned and at times patient manner (I notice you used the term dataminning again in the post above - the word has a certain specific meaning in poker, its a pejorative that is not fairly applied to aussies site). Tikay even explained at length how he made his decisions and in some detail.

    I don't think its fair to say you've had any concern shoved up any orrifice by any person.

    With regard to Aussie, I've had some prickly debates with him in the past. I  think some leeway should be afforded him, reading between the lines I think there is a reason for the 'pricklinesss' and its not because he doesn't mean well. Quite the opposite. There maybe a reason tikay feels he wants to speak for Aussie in these circumstances, he certainly holds him in high regard which is good enough for me.
  • Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:
    helllooooo mr invisible here (other than to teddy - i know you can see me so please no more talk of huds) so Aussie has gone off in a huff because a couple of people from the whole of sky poker has upset him. and that's the only thing on my thread worthy of discusion? someone who refused to engage in a rational debate about his datamining application is the victim! oh, other than because the letter of the law Data Protection Act (1998) doesn't count so we should all be happy to have our worries about privacy shoved up our ar*e.  must admit i'm rather disappointed. 
    Posted by GELDY

    Twice previously on this thread I have had to clarify that Aussiescope/Sharkscope are not in breach of data protection law.  I have to defend people who have been wrongly accused of breaking the law.

    I am happy to continue clairfying why that is the case. The Data Protection Act only covers the use of personally identifiable data.

    We are not talking about the finer points of data protection law we are talking about the fundamental principles and basic definitions that underpin it all.

    "GELDY" and results associated with that name on this site are not personally identifiable data. You know who you are.You gave skypoker additional information so they know who you are. Readers of this forum, players on skypoker, aussiescope, sharkscope and their users do not know who you are. 

    Yes there are sites out there that take your data and package it in a way that gives others information which may be useful in playing against you. Aussiecope/Sharkscope give you the option of opting out of them. It seems they should not be the target, but Teddy has identified other types of software that goes beyond collating the publically available information and the personal hand history that feeds a HUD. That stuff does sound worrying.


  • Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited March 2016
    @Tikay

    Yes those quotes do seem to have gone uncommented on.

    In an earlier post, I too was uncomfortable with the personal nature of some posts. I also could understand why there were divided opinions and appreciated you letting the debate flow.

    It may have been a surprise to aussie (we have had our differences) that I actually supported him and his site.

    To some people, aussie may have over reacted. However consider the time and effort he must put into those tables which by and large add to the community as a whole. People are not just questionning the fundamental concepts, they are making personal comments.

    Taking the ball away may not be the best answer, but I know if a negative thread started about the HUFA cup I would very much think hard about whether it was worth running a HUFA II. 

    Various diaries have stopped because of negative and personal comments made against the authors.

    Negativity breeds negativity.

    We cannot all agree on everything, indeed what a boring world that would be, but let's be civil in how we disagree and have a grown up debate about the issues - please.



  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited March 2016
    i know, i know, toys pram dummy spit

    but sorry teddy, you clearly don't understand my concerns as much as i don't understand you, so just repeating the same old things doesn't help.

    and i'm upset about Aussie as well. i've never said anything against him, other than he didn't engage with me wrt my concerns.
  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2016
    people see monsters in the shadows of their ignorance.

    3rd party software is much misunderstood - as shown in this thread - i make no apology for attempting to debunk some myths and fill in some of the blanks in the debate.

    i understand your concens, i just think they are baseless.

    glgl

  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 173,736
    edited March 2016


    Teddy.

    If you felt inclined to help further - & your contributions on this thread have been pitched perfectly - perhaps you would consider writing a Blog about these things.

    Something like explaining the pros & cons of the different things touched on in this thread, as it's clear there is a lot of misunderstanding of what's what. I'm not here to argue with or upset anyone, but the level of misunderstanding of some things has been something of a surprise. Understanding them better has to be a good thing.  
     
    HUD's

    Datamining

    Results databases.

    Apps (as far as I know, none of them are App based).
     
    And for each of those (& any other you think relevant), why they are good or bad, what we can learn from each of them, how do we interpret what they tell us. 

    If you are agreeable, I'll PM you my e-Mail address, & if you send it across, I'll Post it on the Official Sky Poker Blog, or "Latest News", & promote it to a wide readership.

    I can't compensate you with a Free Entry for a MTT, as you can't play here at present, but I would if I could.
      
  • TeddyBloatTeddyBloat Member Posts: 1,419
    edited March 2016
    i cant do anything to a deadline, but i could for sure make a reasonable attempt at it as a side project over the next week or two?
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 173,736
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted?:
    i cant do anything to a deadline, but i could for sure make a reasonable attempt at it as a side project over the next week or two?
    Posted by TeddyBloat
    Perfect, no rush at all, but I think it'd be really useful as an aid to better understanding by all of us.

    I'll PM you my e-Mail address. No need to reply, just write it as & when you find a bit of time. Does not need to be overly long, somewhere between 500-1,000 words is ample.

    So much of the mood of this thread has been due to misunderstanding each other, what these things are, & what they do, & who else allows or forbids their use.   

    Thank you.  
  • ShaunyTShaunyT Member Posts: 619
    edited March 2016
    I havent played sky much in the last year, or really been active on the forum, so ive scoured some of the threads to dip my toe back in, but this thread has surprised me.

    I really dont mean this to sound rude (but text on a page cant really convey a tone) but i thought the difference between a database and a HUD is extremely clear and has been well explained already.

    Personally i think sky banning on HUD's is excellent (from a recs point of view). Sharkscope has been around forever so i dont know why this is an issue now, although admittedly i dont really know what aussies database offers that is different.

    I would say, again my opinion only, that anybody who is willing to put time/money into a subscription and try and analyse a player based on this, will most probably put time and effort into note taking and HH anyway, so its kind of a moot point. Although i do get that databases or software are there to take out the leg work.

    i would also say that after catching up on various threads on here i would definitly class this as a "1st world problem" and take a bit of time to reflect on whats really important in life. Sometimes when we attach ourselves to an issue we lose a bit of perspective and the issue seems bigger than it really is.

    Have a good weekend everyone.
  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 173,736
    edited March 2016


    Teddy - PM sent.
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