All these huds and wotnot,are like high frequency trading on the stock market,only accessable by a few.
poker tracker, which is the market leader and used by a huge % of professional players and recreationals alike - costs £40 for lowstakes players. that is for a life time use.
if you play the nosebleed stakes £1000 buyins, it costs you £60. for life time use.
there is no barrier to entry. plenty of recreational players use them [speaking to a chap who sells premium HUDs most of his customers are LOSING players who play for fun].
HFT is indeed a dark art requiring access to dark pools, elaborate algorythms and cruically relies on accessig information not available to the general trading public. you could not become a HF trader for £40
you can own the same tracking software as isuldur1 for £40.
helllooooo mr invisible here (other than to teddy - i know you can see me so please no more talk of huds) so Aussie has gone off in a huff because a couple of people from the whole of sky poker has upset him. and that's the only thing on my thread worthy of discusion? someone who refused to engage in a rational debate about his datamining application is the victim! oh, other than because the letter of the law Data Protection Act (1998) doesn't count so we should all be happy to have our worries about privacy shoved up our ar*e. must admit i'm rather disappointed. Posted by GELDY
You might feel invisible because at least to me it really isnt clear what your worries are so it is hard to respond.
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : Fair dues,didnt know that.My reference to a governing body was as i recall (although not poker) some bridge players wanted to get their game classified as a sport.All sports needs need governing bodies dont they.Just thought id clear that up as to were i was coming from. Posted by chilling
This is the problem, people are scared about something they know little about.
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : You might feel invisible because at least to me it really isnt clear what your worries are so it is hard to respond. Posted by MattBates
I'm clearly not explaining myself very well. I think the collection, analysis and mining of data has become too intrusive. I do not like it, and there are others who agree with me. And to have others insinuate or state repeatedly that it is due to my lack of understanding is downright rude and condescending.
All these tools (as even the word app isn't apparently acceptable any more) are believed to confer an advantage to the user, which by definition is at the expense of others, namely the recs.
SkyPoker's policy used to be market leading, i.e. banning of huds and distaste of sharkscope. But now they are falling behind. Pokerstars requires an optin to sharky to access roi and financial data, but sky doesn't. And then Sky was happy to allow a datamining site (aussiescope) be promoted on its main forum. I totally understand all the good things about it, and its creator, but that is not the issue. The issue is about the negatives.
And if the data protection act can't protect us, we need Skypoker to do so. How do we know there aren't people already using a railscope on here. I could build one easy enough. You would not believe what can now be done. (Well actually you probably would, but it might be a surprise to many others.)
It is increasingly difficult to counter the "on-line poker is rigged" crowd. No it's not rigged, but it isn't a level playing field.
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : I'm clearly not explaining myself very well. I think the collection, analysis and mining of data has become too intrusive. I do not like it, and there are others who agree with me. And to have others insinuate or state repeatedly that it is due to my lack of understanding is downright rude and condescending. All these tools (as even the word app isn't apparently acceptable any more) are believed to confer an advantage to the user, which by definition is at the expense of others, namely the recs. SkyPoker's policy used to be market leading, i.e. banning of huds and distaste of sharkscope. But now they are falling behind. Pokerstars requires an optin to sharky to access roi and financial data, but sky doesn't. And then Sky was happy to allow a datamining site (aussiescope) be promoted on its main forum. I totally understand all the good things about it, and its creator, but that is not the issue. The issue is about the negatives. And if the data protection act can't protect us, we need Skypoker to do so. How do we know there aren't people already using a railscope on here. I could build one easy enough. You would not believe what can now be done. (Well actually you probably would, but it might be a surprise to many others.) It is increasingly difficult to counter the "on-line poker is rigged" crowd. No its not rigged, but it isn't a level playing field. Posted by GELDY
I'm genuinely sorry you feel that Gelders, & I hope you don't think I've been either. If I have, it was unintentional. I don't do rude if I can help it.
To be honest, I don't know what to say, or how to say it, the thread has taken my breath away.
Aussiescope is not an App, & neither Sharky or Aussie are "datamining". Datamining in poker is something completely & totally different, & very few approve of it.
Not a level playing field? Depends how you see it. Those who put in extra work, by training sites, coaching, reviewing HH's, & subscribing to Sharky & the like will do better, yes. But those things are available to everyone. Just because we don't all choose to use them, does not translate to being unfair. Lots of guys do better than I do at poker because they put a lot of effort into getting better by subscribing to coaching, or sites like Sharky. I'm not sure that makes it "unfair", they put more effort into it & reap more rewards. That seems intrinsically fair to me.
I could make notes on every result if I wished, would that be unfair on others? I'd have to work harder than them though.
For the record, I do refer to Sharky, as do many others. I don't feel any guilt about that, they can all do the same as me, & for 5 (?) searches a day, which is all most of us at the basic level need, it's free.
I do have an issue that Sharky take that info for free, & sell it on, but they do have to collate & sort it.
I'm opposed to HUD's for a different reason, but that's another & different story altogether.
I get what HUDs are and datamining are . No confusion here. Is the method how this data is collected ok ? Im going to guess Aussiscope and Sharkscope dont have "agency temps" typing in Data and results as they come in. Are they using scripts ? Are scripts allowed ? Posted by mumsie
The software on Sky Poker is configured in such a way that HUD's & datamining don't work. Sure, every now & then someone builds some sort of Heath Robinson workaround, but it genuinely is not scaleable or sustainable & is of no use due to how the software works, there are roadblocks built in which prevent it.
Personally, I have no idea how Sharky, Aussie or Gary collect their results, but they don't have any access you or I don't have.
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? :
Aussiescope is not an App, & neither Sharky or Aussie are "datamining". Datamining in poker is something completely & totally different, & very few approve of it.
Posted by Tikay10
I was using the expression datamining in the computer science sense, and quoting teddy
It's much worse than posting un-edited hands.
He is data mining, applying mathematical weights to what he sees as relevant data and producing a score based on this.
Then he is grouping players together - giving some some pretty unpleasant labels such as whale or bully - and offering advice on their playing styles and how to play against them.
I mean those inferences on playing style are likely meaningless, but he believes they are accurate.
I'm kinda surprised he sees nothing wrong with this; I'd be utterly amazed if sky see nothing wrong with it
A hud provides you info on how someone plays. You can take information from the statictics to figure out a strategy that will work best against that type of opponant. However sky poker do not allow huds so noone should have any problem with that.
Sharkscope/Aussiescope is in no way related. Its a place were you can look up results of players the same thing as checking manutds results. It does not give you any statictics whatsoever in order how to play against that type of opponant. Sure its 2 fun sites to look at. Does it help identify how to play against a particular opponant no it doesnt.
Lets say i looked up the results of 4 different players and all of them were in £20000 profit. Does that mean that i should play the same against all 4 opponants no it doesnt. Id probly have a different strategies against all 4 of them. The results are fun to look at sure but with regard to helping me play against someone the results are utterly meaningless. You play against people based on your experience at the table with them you dont have a strategy against them from looking at results and doing so would be a massive mistake.
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : I was using the expression datamining in the computer science sense, and quoting teddy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's much worse than posting un-edited hands. He is data mining, applying mathematical weights to what he sees as relevant data and producing a score based on this. Then he is grouping players together - giving some some pretty unpleasant labels such as whale or bully - and offering advice on their playing styles and how to play against them. I mean those inferences on playing style are likely meaningless, but he believes they are accurate. I'm kinda surprised he sees nothing wrong with this; I'd be utterly amazed if sky see nothing wrong w ith it Posted by GELDY
Hi Geldy.
I see datamining as , say , a website calling itself pokerdataming.com gets people to subscribe for free , they all give the site acess to their HH, so, eventually, the site gets to jig-saw together all hole cards, even the mucked ones-when the get enough subscribers - they then start to sell batches when they have enough.
Then people with HUDS and tracking software can download these hand histories and get stats on players they have never come up against.
My idea of DATA mining might be wrong of a bit out of date, ive tried googling the site I knew that did this, but it appears to be gone.
*Edit, Sharscope and Aussie dont do this. They complie league tables on results, not hole cards. Worlds apart ethically.
*Edit 2 , HH are not saved to machine on sky, we cant email hand histories willy nilly.
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : I'm clearly not explaining myself very well. I think the collection, analysis and mining of data has become too intrusive. I do not like it, and there are others who agree with me. And to have others insinuate or state repeatedly that it is due to my lack of understanding is downright rude and condescending. All these tools (as even the word app isn't apparently acceptable any more) are believed to confer an advantage to the user, which by definition is at the expense of others, namely the recs. SkyPoker's policy used to be market leading, i.e. banning of huds and distaste of sharkscope. But now they are falling behind. Pokerstars requires an optin to sharky to access roi and financial data, but sky doesn't. And then Sky was happy to allow a datamining site (aussiescope) be promoted on its main forum. I totally understand all the good things about it, and its creator, but that is not the issue. The issue is about the negatives. And if the data protection act can't protect us, we need Skypoker to do so. How do we know there aren't people already using a railscope on here. I could build one easy enough. You would not believe what can now be done. (Well actually you probably would, but it might be a surprise to many others.) It is increasingly difficult to counter the "on-line poker is rigged" crowd. No it's not rigged, but it isn't a level playing field. Posted by GELDY
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : I was using the expression datamining in the computer science sense, and quoting teddy It's much worse than posting un-edited hands. He is data mining, applying mathematical weights to what he sees as relevant data and producing a score based on this. Then he is grouping players together - giving some some pretty unpleasant labels such as whale or bully - and offering advice on their playing styles and how to play against them. I mean those inferences on playing style are likely meaningless, but he believes they are accurate. I'm kinda surprised he sees nothing wrong with this; I'd be utterly amazed if sky see nothing wrong w ith it Posted by GELDY
note that when aussie posted those threads he was mnaking some pretty wild claims about being able to draw inferences on playing style, grouping players togther based on this and then offering advice on how to play those players.
i was [and am] firmly of the belief that those infrences were erroneous, and his advice therefore worthless.
aussie however believed that he could draw inferences and that the advice he was giving was useful. i was being deliberately provocative with my choice of words there. had aussie's claims been true then that would very much be an example of an unethical 3rd party database. and i was astonsihed he was openly making those claims and publishing those lists.
Geldy and Teddy, I do know what your referring to and yes it upset quite a few players as I remember all too clearly when the "notes" first appeared, one inparticular but eventually it got sorted out. That was just Aussie's interpretation of how he say people playing. Sometimes I think the notes went a bit too far. Can put what he wants about my style of play as I never seem to play the same way twice and I am always changing my style of play. Even I don't know how I'm going to play a hand until the last second. Sometime's I do kick myself as could have played it differently.
Surely if a high percentage of top players use poker tracker, then it levels the playing field for the"nosebleed buyins". Youre going to tell me its the interpretation thats gives the edge. i have a crystal ball. Posted by chilling
Given tbat huds dont tell you how to play how coukd it be any other way?
Do the existence of gyms level the fitness of the towns they are situated in, or are you going to tell me it depemds on the amount of people visiting the gym and how much work they do there?
Geldy and Teddy, I do know what your referring to and yes it upset quite a few players as I remember all too clearly when the "notes" first appeared, one inparticular but eventually it got sorted out. That was just Aussie's interpretation of how he say people playing. Sometimes I think the notes went a bit too far. Can put what he wants about my style of play as I never seem to play the same way twice and I am always changing my style of play. Even I don't know how I'm going to play a hand until the last second. Sometime's I do kick myself as could have played it differently. Posted by Darkangel7
Sounds to me the only people guaranteed to make a profit from poker trackers and huds , are the peeps that sell them. Gold rush and spades. Posted by chilling
very apt analogy.
unless you are prepared to put in a lot of work in finding out where the gold is and are actually using your tool correctly you are merely a man in a random field holding the wrong end of a shovel hoping to get rich quick.
In Response to Re: What database apps on Sky are forbidden, and which permitted? : note that when aussie posted those threads he was mnaking some pretty wild claims about being able to draw inferences on playing style, grouping players togther based on this and then offering advice on how to play those players. i was [and am] firmly of the belief that those infrences were erroneous, and his advice therefore worthless. aussie however believed that he could draw inferences and that the advice he was giving was useful. i was being deliberately provocative with my choice of words there. had aussie's claims been true then that would very much be an example of an unethical 3rd party database. and i was astonsihed he was openly making those claims and publishing those lists. Posted by TeddyBloat
so was I, I complained to customer service and got told where to go, over week later.
at that point in time it would have been a good idea if someone from sky found out exactly what aussies intentions were/and or a mod had a stern word about the nature of his posts but it was left unchecked.
hence my comments about sky allowing this to happen.
As TK has just said, he is unhappy that sharky take the ROI info etc and sell it on.
I wonder if the aussie site was attempting to do just that, but as soon as I suggested it might be on the way, several people here suggested that wasn't likely to happen.
FWIW as its been raised, I think the way aussie coalates his data is by dropping the results thread lobbies into excel and using a program to pull the data together (such as kmine), its not hard to do but time consuming to do each tournament 1 by 1.
Genuinely baffled this thread is still going on, I didn't think there was any more that could be said about it.
I just wanted to post cos I've seen a few posts reference 'multiple regs who aren't against aussie's site' and sometimes included me in that list. Originally I thought it was a bit questionable posting it up on the forum now that he's charging for it, although he seemed to agree early in the thread to stop posting links.
I don't have anything against the fundamental idea of the site though, and think its good fun... I don't think it's particularly useful from a strategic POV but it's good fun.
Fwiw, when I said something like 'it doesnt affect me, I won't be buying it', that wasn't a dig at the site, I think it's a decent site and I do have the occasional peek, I'm just realllly tight lol so I wouldn't pay for it unless I felt it was reallly good value for money. I won't even pay for sharkscope even though I love it
Cliffs imo:
*Some people don't like that Rob data-mines MTT results.
*Data-mining MTT results and putting them into pretty tables is perfectly legal.
*Whether he posts them on the forum or not, Rob is gonna continue running his site.
*Rob could stop posting links (or updates at all) on the forum but as others have mentioned, that'd just reduce even more so the number of people that are aware of the site, so in some people eye's, increase the edge the people have who know about it.
Comments
poker tracker, which is the market leader and used by a huge % of professional players and recreationals alike - costs £40 for lowstakes players. that is for a life time use.
if you play the nosebleed stakes £1000 buyins, it costs you £60. for life time use.
there is no barrier to entry. plenty of recreational players use them [speaking to a chap who sells premium HUDs most of his customers are LOSING players who play for fun].
HFT is indeed a dark art requiring access to dark pools, elaborate algorythms and cruically relies on accessig information not available to the general trading public. you could not become a HF trader for £40
you can own the same tracking software as isuldur1 for £40.
To be honest, I don't know what to say, or how to say it, the thread has taken my breath away.
Aussiescope is not an App, & neither Sharky or Aussie are "datamining". Datamining in poker is something completely & totally different, & very few approve of it.
Not a level playing field? Depends how you see it. Those who put in extra work, by training sites, coaching, reviewing HH's, & subscribing to Sharky & the like will do better, yes. But those things are available to everyone. Just because we don't all choose to use them, does not translate to being unfair. Lots of guys do better than I do at poker because they put a lot of effort into getting better by subscribing to coaching, or sites like Sharky. I'm not sure that makes it "unfair", they put more effort into it & reap more rewards. That seems intrinsically fair to me.
I could make notes on every result if I wished, would that be unfair on others? I'd have to work harder than them though.
For the record, I do refer to Sharky, as do many others. I don't feel any guilt about that, they can all do the same as me, & for 5 (?) searches a day, which is all most of us at the basic level need, it's free.
I do have an issue that Sharky take that info for free, & sell it on, but they do have to collate & sort it.
I'm opposed to HUD's for a different reason, but that's another & different story altogether.
Personally, I have no idea how Sharky, Aussie or Gary collect their results, but they don't have any access you or I don't have.
i was [and am] firmly of the belief that those infrences were erroneous, and his advice therefore worthless.
aussie however believed that he could draw inferences and that the advice he was giving was useful. i was being deliberately provocative with my choice of words there. had aussie's claims been true then that would very much be an example of an unethical 3rd party database. and i was astonsihed he was openly making those claims and publishing those lists.
very apt analogy.
unless you are prepared to put in a lot of work in finding out where the gold is and are actually using your tool correctly you are merely a man in a random field holding the wrong end of a shovel hoping to get rich quick.
hence my comments about sky allowing this to happen.
As TK has just said, he is unhappy that sharky take the ROI info etc and sell it on.
I wonder if the aussie site was attempting to do just that, but as soon as I suggested it might be on the way, several people here suggested that wasn't likely to happen.
FWIW as its been raised, I think the way aussie coalates his data is by dropping the results thread lobbies into excel and using a program to pull the data together (such as kmine), its not hard to do but time consuming to do each tournament 1 by 1.
*Whether he posts them on the forum or not, Rob is gonna continue running his site.
*Rob could stop posting links (or updates at all) on the forum but as others have mentioned, that'd just reduce even more so the number of people that are aware of the site, so in some people eye's, increase the edge the people have who know about it.