BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?

StayOrGo

Hi, I was on a FT of a M/E this week, and just when the FT table was formed, the following happened:

I 3bet with QQ and everyone folded. I then showed the QQ.

Then in the chat, one of the players that was on my earlier table said:

"Don't trust StayOrGo, he only shows his good hands, he's bluffing all the time, do not be fooled by him!" (In capitals too)

The statement was fairly accurate, I agree, as I do show more premium hands than bluffs. However, was it fair for him to point this out to the new players at the table?

I had several notes on the player concerned. Stating that he rarely defended his blinds, he would often fold to C bets, and was generally "fit or fold" and he didn't C bet unless he hit.

I felt an urge to share this information with the table, but realised that it would just have been childish retaliation, so I refrained from doing so.

So my question is:

Were his coments within the rules but bad etiqutte? Or was it fair enough?

If his comments were "fair enough" would it also be "fair enough" for me to to inform others of his style?

It's no big deal, I didn't lose any sleep over it. Mostly on Sky Poker, the players are very cordial, and he certainly wasn't rude. However is it right to inform other players of certain opponents playing style?

Food for thought. Interested to see what people think. (No names provided to protect the innocent) :=)

Cheers,

Graham

ShaunyT

Seems like a very silly thing to do to give other players free info. Smacks of inexperience to me. Fwiw I think it's out of order, but I'm not sure if it's "against the rules" as it is only his/her opinion. If I was in your position I think I would have retaliated in kind and shared info, just to teach the player a lesson and hopefully make them think twice before doing it again.

Did you take it down??

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

Seems like a very silly thing to do to give other players free info. Smacks of inexperience to me. Fwiw I think it's out of order, but I'm not sure if it's "against the rules" as it is only his/her opinion. If I was in your position I think I would have retaliated in kind and shared info, just to teach the player a lesson and hopefully make them think twice before doing it again. Did you take it down??
Posted by ShaunyT

No finished 4th. Didn't get any bluffs through :=)

mumsie

Its an attempt at collusion.

Chat

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ShaunyT

Seems like a very silly thing to do to give other players free info. Smacks of inexperience to me. Fwiw I think it's out of order, but I'm not sure if it's "against the rules" as it is only his/her opinion. If I was in your position I think I would have retaliated in kind and shared info, just to teach the player a lesson and hopefully make them think twice before doing it again.

Did you take it down??

CraigSG1

Honestly - whats the big deal? You know your style, you must be aware a lot of players would pick up on this and you are good enough to deal with this on a daily basis. You just adjust and use it to your advantage. He has just given you the green light to value bet a lot more widely! 

Im not having a dig, i know my tone may seem it. I just like to tell it as it is. Its just the same as someone saying "this guy is hitting everything at the moment" or "this guy calls everything!" etc. 

PS. You need to double book a coaching session of HU play with Ric Orford, two 2nds last night! Just not good enough!

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

Honestly - whats the big deal? You know your style, you must be aware a lot of players would pick up on this and you are good enough to deal with this on a daily basis. You just adjust and use it to your advantage. He has just given you the green light to value bet a lot more widely!  Im not having a dig, i know my tone may seem it. I just like to tell it as it is. Its just the same as someone saying "this guy is hitting everything at the moment" or "this guy calls everything!" etc.  PS. You need to double book a coaching session of HU play with Ric Orford, two 2nds last night! Just not good enough!
Posted by CraigSG1

Thanks for the feedback Craig.

Very true, I know most people know my style, so it's not a problem, however some of the players on the FT were not regs.

It seemed to me that, they would identify my style in time, however this sped up their recognition of it.

Yes of course, one can adapt, but should I have to change my approach/style because of comments made by others at the table?

It's a grey area. Like I said, I lost no sleep over it, but thought it would be an interesting point for discussion.

I would not do it to others, however is it a rules infringement or just bad etiquette?

Re the heads up practice. Yes badly needed. I will be enlisting the help of Mr Orford very soon :=)

Cheers,

Graham

Ice_Tiger

It is deffo bad ettiquette & is probably against the rules but rules aren't enforced unless someone complains.

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

It is deffo bad ettiquette & is probably against the rules but rules aren't enforced unless someone complains.
Posted by Ice_Tiger

Yes, it's a tricky one Tiger, I would be interested in someone from Sky's perspective on this.

Glenelg

In Response to BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

Hi, I was on a FT of a M/E this week, and just when the FT table was formed, the following happened: I 3bet with QQ and everyone folded. I then showed the QQ. 
Posted by StayOrGo

Hi Graham,

Could I ask WHY you would show QQ?  This is an aspect of poker that ( as a rec player) I can't get my head around. Every time I see players do it I shout at the screen... :-(

Surely you are giving FREE information away? Why?  I'm NOT condoning the other players response BTW I'm just asking WHY?

 Pad

Jac35

Hardly an issue

Glenelg

In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

Hardly an issue
Posted by Jac35

Was that a reply to me?

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

In Response to BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Hi Graham, Could I ask WHY  you would show QQ?  This is an aspect of poker that ( as a rec player) I can't get my head around. Every time I see players do it I shout at the screen... :-( Surely you are giving FREE information away? Why?  I'm NOT condoning the other players response BTW I'm just asking WHY?  Pad
Posted by Glenelg

Hi Glenelg,

In answer to your question:

I occasionally show cards in the hope of creating an image that may assist me in future hands.

I agree that one shouldn't do it too often.

Any advantage gained from it is usually temporary, but can on ocassions assist in the short term.

However, one does have to be careful, as good players can get a lot of information from it. So you have to be confident that the benefits out weigh the risks.

This means a careful assessment of when you show and who's at the table when you do.

So I am in the camp of, "It's OK to show now and again, for percieved tatical advantage, but never to brag"

Also if you do this people. Glenelg is right, "HANDLE WITH CARE"

Hope this answers your question.

Cheers,

Graham

Glenelg

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Hi Glenelg, In answer to your question: I occasionally show cards in the hope of creating an image that may assist me in future hands. I agree that one shouldn't do it too often. Any advantage gained from it is usually temporary, but can on ocassions assist in the short term. However, one does have to be careful, as good players can get a lot of information from it. So you have to be confident that the benefits out weigh the risks. This means a careful assessment of when you show and who's at the table when you do. So I am in the camp of, "It's OK to show now and again, for percieved tatical advantage, but never to brag" Also if you do this people. Glenelg is right, "HANDLE WITH CARE" Hope this answers your question. Cheers, Graham
Posted by StayOrGo

Thanks for that Graham,

Could I also ask...do you show the "7,2" hands occasionally? 

BTW ... vee are makin notes Pike..

LmfaoAllin

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

In Response to BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Hi Graham, Could I ask WHY  you would show QQ?  This is an aspect of poker that ( as a rec player) I can't get my head around. Every time I see players do it I shout at the screen... :-( Surely you are giving FREE information away? Why?  I'm NOT condoning the other players response BTW I'm just asking WHY?  Pad
Posted by Glenelg

Smoke and mirrors ; )

LmfaoAllin

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Thanks for that Graham, Could I also ask...do you show the "7,2" hands occasionally?  BTW ... vee are makin notes Pike..
Posted by Glenelg

Just my opinion but I'd say that would be a no.

As he is a very aggressive player this would be detrimental to the image he is trying to create to unknown opposition by showing hands like QQ.

By showing the QQ he is trying to say 'I always have it', or at least plant a seed of doubt in his opponents mind which will hopefully manifest when put in a tough spot by Grahams aggressive play.

Atleast thats my read of it.

goldon

   I was told when I thought I was being courteous by showing AA to a table fold.   " If we wanted to see your cards we would have called you."   Mm!  you have to expect a reaction ....... reluctant to show anything now.!

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Thanks for that Graham, Could I also ask...do you show the "7,2" hands occasionally?  BTW ... vee are makin notes Pike..
Posted by Glenelg

I can recall two rag hands bluffs that I've shown, both live.

The first one was a while ago, and was purely an ego, bragging thing. I later went out, surprise surprise, when my bluffs didn't get through. So I soon learned a lesson not to do that.

The 2nd one that I recall was again live, in a GPS tournament in Stoke.

I was on a very aggressive table and had to adapt my play accordingly. As a result, I was playing very tight and waiting for good hands. When I did 3bet, usually with premiums, they got instant folds.

I was also the oldest guy at the table and couldn't get any action when I had the goods.

There was one hand where a good young aggro player, looked over and saw it was me on the BB. He then raised. To me it looked like he thought I was a soft BB, so I decided to 3bet him with 82.

He called the 3bet and the board came 3K3. I led out on the flop. He tanked and folded JJ. I showed the 82, not to brag, but to let the kids realise that I was capable of making a move. I've had several situations where my light 3betting has ended in tears, but on this occasion it worked out.

It paid off as I later got called light when I had KK.

However this was a unique situation, where I had been playing far more passive than usual. In general I don't show bluffs. :=)

Cheers,

Graham

P.S. I hope you have made good notes on me now :=)

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

   I was told when I thought I was being courteous by showing AA to a table fold.   " If we wanted to see your cards we would have called you."   Mm!  you have to expect a reaction ....... reluctant to show anything now.!
Posted by goldon

Hi goldon.

My comments would be:

1) Don't show to be courteous.

2) Show only if you think it will give you a tactical advantage.

3) Don't worry about how people will potentially react to you showing, you have a right to show or muck, regardless of how you feel it may be perceived.

4) It helps to be equanimous to peoples reactions, as best as you can. Although full equanimity is rarely achieved, so just try your best to be as unshakeable as you can.

Cheers,

G

StayOrGo

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

In Response to Re: BAD ETIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH? : Just my opinion but I'd say that would be a no. As he is a very aggressive player this would be detrimental to the image he is trying to create to unknown opposition by showing hands like QQ. By showing the QQ he is trying to say 'I always have it', or at least plant a seed of doubt in his opponents mind which will hopefully manifest when put in a tough spot by Grahams aggressive play. Atleast thats my read of it.
Posted by LmfaoAllin

Pretty much right there James

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: BAD ETTIQUETTE, AGAINST THE RULES, OR FAIR ENOUGH?:

Hardly an issue
Posted by Jac35

I hate to agree but this.

Its nothing.