Okay its official I am Confused.com lol. I thought they were all called PLO8 but I think you are right it was P.L.O. You got to laugh. I thought they were the same game. Oh well maybe its time to look at some videos. Good luck whatever you play Nannypat66 Posted by Nannypat66
Just goes to show what an easy game PLO is! You didn't even know what you wre playing and you came 2nd. Congratulations you're a natural. Now make the transition to PLO8 and you will surely crush.
Okay its official I am Confused.com lol. I thought they were all called PLO8 but I think you are right it was P.L.O. You got to laugh. I thought they were the same game. Oh well maybe its time to look at some videos. Good luck whatever you play Nannypat66 Posted by Nannypat66
The '8' refers to 'eights or better' which is the low pot. In PLO players play for 1 pot with plain holdem hand rankings where you use 2 hole crads and 3 board cards to make your best hand. In PLO(8) there are 2 pots. One is a 'HI' pot as above and the other pot is for the best 'LO' hand. A low hand is 2 hole cards and 3 board cards of 8 or under (aces can count as hi or low). The cards for the low pot have to be unpaired with the lowest hand being the best. The best low hand would be a2345, 2nd best a2346 and so on. If no player has a qualifying low hand then the high hand takes it all.
You can use different combination of your hole and board cards for each pot.
Brilliant variant that's rejuvenated my enjoyment of poker and IMO, a lot easier to be profitable from than NLH. Posted by nickkay
Enjoyed sharing a few tables with you last night, & you seemed to do pretty well from what I could see.
Thought you were a tad unlucky in the £11er, but that was some tough table, most of whom are experienced & profitable at PLO8.
I do bang on a bit, maybe too much, about how much more fun it is to play PLO & PLO8, but it's really noticeable how many players say what you just said - it re-ignites their love for poker. And yes, it is MUCH easier to be profitable (or lose less) than NLH, where there are so few "value spots" these days.
If you have any questions on the 4 card game, don't hesitate to ask, & I'll try & answer, or get some who actually knows how to play the game to reply.
In Response to Re: The Joys of PLO8 : Enjoyed sharing a few tables with you last night, & you seemed to do pretty well from what I could see. Thought you were a tad unlucky in the £11er, but that was some tough table, most of whom are experienced & profitable at PLO8. I do bang on a bit, maybe too much, about how much more fun it is to play PLO & PLO8, but it's really noticeable how many players say what you just said - it re-ignites their love for poker. And yes, it is MUCH easier to be profitable (or lose less) than NLH, where there are so few "value spots" these days. If you have any questions on the 4 card game, don't hesitate to ask, & I'll try & answer, or get some who actually knows how to play the game to reply. Posted by Tikay10
Cheers Tikay, the PLO8 crowd seem very sociable and as for that £11 game, I was too busy concentrating on the deep run in a PLO8 tournament, so my own fault.
Ha, I saw that hand. His play is not as bad as it may look at first sight, though I'm not sure I can ever make that play. He KNEW you had some sort of Ace, & that was part of his logic. If he knew your actual hand, I fancy he'd still get it in pre.
You did nothing wrong really. Blinds are 100-200, & once you 3 bet it played itself. You don't really have the option of limping in to se a "safe" flop at that point.
From the villain's perspective - who, by the way is VERY good, (had a 6 game clean sweep last night, all at £11 & £16.50) - I guess his logic was that he is never THAT far behind in PLO8.
Bet you'd be surprised to know the pre-flop odds were almost a flip.
You had 55% equity, he had 45% equity. Pretty much a flip.
You were 37% to scoop, he was 27% to scoop.
You win the high 64% of the time, he wins the high 36% of the time.
You get the Low 12% of the time, he gets it 42%.
Hands in PLO8 run very close together, as you can see, but if you could re-run that coup 10,000 times, you'd be comfortably ahead. Looking at single hands in isolation is meaningless really, the long term maths is more important.
Thanks for your reply Tikay, I think I need to adjust my thinking a little in PLO8.
In villian's position I guess I wouldn't have opened initially and then when three bet would have thought 'OK I have no high and the fact that he 3 bet means he probably has a better low too (I didn't but God knows how he knew that) and it's for my STT life', so I fold, leaving myself 1520 behind and 200 BB the next hand, still enough IMO. I'm too tight obv and maybe need to adjust my play in line with the fact that you're never too far behind your opponent.
Edit: just seen who was in the BB, I presume he was blind stealing!
Thanks for your reply Tikay, I think I need to adjust my thinking a little in PLO8. In villian's position I guess I wouldn't have opened initially and then when three bet would have thought 'OK I have no high and the fact that he 3 bet means he probably has a better low too (I didn't but God knows how he knew that) and it's for my STT life', so I fold, leaving myself 1520 behind and 200 BB the next hand, still enough IMO. I'm too tight obv and maybe need to adjust my play in line with the fact that you're never too far behind your opponent. Edit: just seen who was in the BB, I presume he was blind stealing! Posted by Enut
Well yes, that's the way you & I think. The guy is very very good though, & his results prove that, so it behoves us to take a look at our own game. It really does look a bit like a "punt" though. What we know is that he is good enough to KNOW he was GUARANTEED to be behind there. But not much....
Course, if it comes all high, he looks rather silly in hindsight & you can sit atop a game winning stack, & we'd not be discussing the play.
Not sure if it was me this time? I know I have ran quite lucky against you recently.
I know I had a very similar hand against you last night and bust your aces with a 2-6 straight but I think in that one you opened on my BB, I flat called, you cbet the flop and I shoved and possibly hit the 2-6 on the turn. This doesn't look on the surface like one of my efforts.
My memory may be clouded and this may have been me, either way...
I don't like the play all that much to be honest.
Firstly from your perspective. I don't think you put a foot wrong. While you are not short, you soon will be if you were to fold hands of this strength. For all you know you have fold equity and there is plenty change in the middle to pick up. I think you have to make it very clear by your bet sizing you are committed which you have done by potting it. IMO you have played it text book and to be critical of your play is to move too much towards being results orientated. It is just one of those things that you haven't held up on this individual occasion.
From opponents perspective. Again I am not certain if this is me or not but I am willing to remain entirely objective with the analysis either way. If you/anyone is ever posting a hand involving me please feel free to leave my name in. It won't cloud my judgement of the hand and I am happy enough to have my play flamed or praised, good or bad I have no problem with this
While there is a place for mini-raising and it is not terrible to mini-raise here I don't think it is the best amount to open here. We really don't want to be raise/folding much pre-flop here due to the odds we are creating because as Tikay said it is likely we wont have the worst odds in the world to just 'go with it'. The mini-raise to 400 is almost inviting a 3bet and as mentioned above we do not want to be raising 25% of our stack and folding pre-flop here very often so I think this has to be made clear by the opening bet size which should be 600 or 700 IMO. When the open is to 600-700 we can IMO more comfortably call the 3bet and play for stacks as we have created better odds to continue with the hand.
With a 1920 stack there is a case at least for just folding pre-flop. If the opener has reasoning behind the open then I think it is also fine to open raise but the opening bet size should be a little higher IMO.
So as played if this was indeed me, which I am really unsure whether it was, then I must have been struggling to keep up with play and got the opening bet size wrong IMO and this was skating very close to the margins.
Thanks for your reply Tikay, I think I need to adjust my thinking a little in PLO8. In villian's position I guess I wouldn't have opened initially and then when three bet would have thought 'OK I have no high and the fact that he 3 bet means he probably has a better low too (I didn't but God knows how he knew that) and it's for my STT life', so I fold, leaving myself 1520 behind and 200 BB the next hand, still enough IMO. I'm too tight obv and maybe need to adjust my play in line with the fact that you're never too far behind your opponent. Edit: just seen who was in the BB, I presume he was blind stealing! Posted by Enut
I think the pot 3bet suggests AA. I don't think you have to give credit for a major accompanying low. Granted opponent may have the low too but I don't think this has to be assumed.
With Tikay in the BB here and these stack sizes I think the mini-open creates a perfect 3betting opportunity at least on the surface. Tikay is such a highly proficient OH8 player who will quickly adjust his ranges versus opponents who get out of line. I would be expecting quite a wide 3bet range here with a mini-open preflop on his BB so again if this was me then I got the opening bet size wrong.
I am struggling a bit to see the merits of the play, too, but to be fair, Villain is very competent, & has a very good win rate over a decent sample size.
Anyway, as you said, the main thing Paul can take on board is that he did nothing wrong. He can't control what others do, all he can do is play his hands optimally, & the maths will take care of the rest.
Just realised, seeing Marky's post, that Paul min-raised pre.
Think that was a mistake, & may have been what caused the whole problem.
I know some folks min-raise big hands in this spot to "induce", but with ranges running so close in O8, I'm not sure I like that.
Aces at 100-200, I'm making it 600 or 700 every time, happy to pick up the money in the middle. I mean, do we REALLY want a caller in O8? In NLH, yes, in O8 taking it down pre is often better.
Thanks for your post and rest assured it wasn't you. Although I do remember the other hand I played against you when you bust my AAxx.....again (have you no remorse?) That was a very different hand and I was quite happy with how both of us played it. I had a pot sized stack left when you called my pre flop raise with a good hand and it just so happened that the flop fit your hand exactly to give you the nut nut draw (I think) anyway you obv called in an instance and got there on the turn for both, no messing around!
I appreciate your comments, especially as they duplicate my thinking exactly! It's always good to have the same thinking as a really good player in a hand.
Not sure if it was me this time? I know I have ran quite lucky against you recently. I know I had a very similar hand against you last night and bust your aces with a 2-6 straight but I think in that one you opened on my BB, I flat called, you cbet the flop and I shoved and possibly hit the 2-6 on the turn. This doesn't look on the surface like one of my efforts. My memory may be clouded and this may have been me, either way... I don't like the play all that much to be honest. Firstly from your perspective. I don't think you put a foot wrong. While you are not short, you soon will be if you were to fold hands of this strength. For all you know you have fold equity and there is plenty change in the middle to pick up. I think you have to make it very clear by your bet sizing you are committed which you have done by potting it. IMO you have played it text book and to be critical of your play is to move too much towards being results orientated. It is just one of those things that you haven't held up on this individual occasion. From opponents perspective. Again I am not certain if this is me or not but I am willing to remain entirely objective with the analysis either way. If you/anyone is ever posting a hand involving me please feel free to leave my name in. It won't cloud my judgement of the hand and I am happy enough to have my play flamed or praised, good or bad I have no problem with this While there is a place for mini-raising and it is not terrible to mini-raise here I don't think it is the best amount to open here. We really don't want to be raise/folding much pre-flop here due to the odds we are creating because as Tikay said it is likely we wont have the worst odds in the world to just 'go with it'. The mini-raise to 400 is almost inviting a 3bet and as mentioned above we do not want to be raising 25% of our stack and folding pre-flop here very often so I think this has to be made clear by the opening bet size which should be 600 or 700 IMO. When the open is to 600-700 we can IMO more comfortably call the 3bet and play for stacks as we have created better odds to continue with the hand. With a 1920 stack there is a case at least for just folding pre-flop. If the opener has reasoning behind the open then I think it is also fine to open raise but the opening bet size should be a little higher IMO. So as played if this was indeed me, which I am really unsure whether it was, then I must have been struggling to keep up with play and got the opening bet size wrong IMO and this was skating very close to the margins. Posted by markycash
It wasn't you Marky, I was on the table, I like his initial play, but don't love his call down. I agree with TKs analysis of his likely thinking (would actually be cool if he came and clarified) and I guess he feels he has invested some in the pot already. I think I fold more often than call down, but as with many things, it depends ;-)
CORRECTION Just realised, seeing Marky's post, that Paul min-raised pre. Think that was a mistake, & may have been what caused the whole problem. I know some folks min-raise big hands in this spot to "induce", but with ranges running so close in O8, I'm not sure I like that. Aces at 100-200, I'm making it 600 or 700 every time, happy to pick up the money in the middle. I mean, do we REALLY want a caller in O8? In NLH, yes, in O8 taking it down pre is often better. Posted by Tikay10
I think it was xxx who mini-opened, not the AA7Q hand?
CORRECTION Just realised, seeing Marky's post, that Paul min-raised pre. Think that was a mistake, & may have been what caused the whole problem. I know some folks min-raise big hands in this spot to "induce", but with ranges running so close in O8, I'm not sure I like that. Aces at 100-200, I'm making it 600 or 700 every time, happy to pick up the money in the middle. I mean, do we REALLY want a caller in O8? In NLH, yes, in O8 taking it down pre is often better. Posted by Tikay10
Eh? I didn't min raise pre, villain did. I potted his min raise.
Thanks for your reply Tikay, I think I need to adjust my thinking a little in PLO8. In villian's position I guess I wouldn't have opened initially and then when three bet would have thought 'OK I have no high and the fact that he 3 bet means he probably has a better low too (I didn't but God knows how he knew that) and it's for my STT life', so I fold, leaving myself 1520 behind and 200 BB the next hand, still enough IMO. I'm too tight obv and maybe need to adjust my play in line with the fact that you're never too far behind your opponent. Edit: just seen who was in the BB, I presume he was blind stealing! Posted by Enut
lol, I was trying to skirt round that in my reply :-)))
Comments
You can use different combination of your hole and board cards for each pot.
Videos here I come lol.
Thought you were a tad unlucky in the £11er, but that was some tough table, most of whom are experienced & profitable at PLO8.
I do bang on a bit, maybe too much, about how much more fun it is to play PLO & PLO8, but it's really noticeable how many players say what you just said - it re-ignites their love for poker. And yes, it is MUCH easier to be profitable (or lose less) than NLH, where there are so few "value spots" these days.
If you have any questions on the 4 card game, don't hesitate to ask, & I'll try & answer, or get some who actually knows how to play the game to reply.
^^^^
Ha, I saw that hand. His play is not as bad as it may look at first sight, though I'm not sure I can ever make that play. He KNEW you had some sort of Ace, & that was part of his logic. If he knew your actual hand, I fancy he'd still get it in pre.
You did nothing wrong really. Blinds are 100-200, & once you 3 bet it played itself. You don't really have the option of limping in to se a "safe" flop at that point.
From the villain's perspective - who, by the way is VERY good, (had a 6 game clean sweep last night, all at £11 & £16.50) - I guess his logic was that he is never THAT far behind in PLO8.
Bet you'd be surprised to know the pre-flop odds were almost a flip.
You had 55% equity, he had 45% equity. Pretty much a flip.
You were 37% to scoop, he was 27% to scoop.
You win the high 64% of the time, he wins the high 36% of the time.
You get the Low 12% of the time, he gets it 42%.
Hands in PLO8 run very close together, as you can see, but if you could re-run that coup 10,000 times, you'd be comfortably ahead. Looking at single hands in isolation is meaningless really, the long term maths is more important.
Course, if it comes all high, he looks rather silly in hindsight & you can sit atop a game winning stack, & we'd not be discussing the play.
Interesting, isn't it?
I know I had a very similar hand against you last night and bust your aces with a 2-6 straight but I think in that one you opened on my BB, I flat called, you cbet the flop and I shoved and possibly hit the 2-6 on the turn. This doesn't look on the surface like one of my efforts.
My memory may be clouded and this may have been me, either way...
I don't like the play all that much to be honest.
Firstly from your perspective. I don't think you put a foot wrong. While you are not short, you soon will be if you were to fold hands of this strength. For all you know you have fold equity and there is plenty change in the middle to pick up. I think you have to make it very clear by your bet sizing you are committed which you have done by potting it. IMO you have played it text book and to be critical of your play is to move too much towards being results orientated. It is just one of those things that you haven't held up on this individual occasion.
From opponents perspective. Again I am not certain if this is me or not but I am willing to remain entirely objective with the analysis either way. If you/anyone is ever posting a hand involving me please feel free to leave my name in. It won't cloud my judgement of the hand and I am happy enough to have my play flamed or praised, good or bad I have no problem with this
While there is a place for mini-raising and it is not terrible to mini-raise here I don't think it is the best amount to open here. We really don't want to be raise/folding much pre-flop here due to the odds we are creating because as Tikay said it is likely we wont have the worst odds in the world to just 'go with it'. The mini-raise to 400 is almost inviting a 3bet and as mentioned above we do not want to be raising 25% of our stack and folding pre-flop here very often so I think this has to be made clear by the opening bet size which should be 600 or 700 IMO. When the open is to 600-700 we can IMO more comfortably call the 3bet and play for stacks as we have created better odds to continue with the hand.
With a 1920 stack there is a case at least for just folding pre-flop. If the opener has reasoning behind the open then I think it is also fine to open raise but the opening bet size should be a little higher IMO.
So as played if this was indeed me, which I am really unsure whether it was, then I must have been struggling to keep up with play and got the opening bet size wrong IMO and this was skating very close to the margins.
With Tikay in the BB here and these stack sizes I think the mini-open creates a perfect 3betting opportunity at least on the surface. Tikay is such a highly proficient OH8 player who will quickly adjust his ranges versus opponents who get out of line. I would be expecting quite a wide 3bet range here with a mini-open preflop on his BB so again if this was me then I got the opening bet size wrong.
^^^^
Hi Mark - happy to confirm it was NOT you.
I am struggling a bit to see the merits of the play, too, but to be fair, Villain is very competent, & has a very good win rate over a decent sample size.
Anyway, as you said, the main thing Paul can take on board is that he did nothing wrong. He can't control what others do, all he can do is play his hands optimally, & the maths will take care of the rest.
CORRECTION
Just realised, seeing Marky's post, that Paul min-raised pre.
Think that was a mistake, & may have been what caused the whole problem.
I know some folks min-raise big hands in this spot to "induce", but with ranges running so close in O8, I'm not sure I like that.
Aces at 100-200, I'm making it 600 or 700 every time, happy to pick up the money in the middle. I mean, do we REALLY want a caller in O8? In NLH, yes, in O8 taking it down pre is often better.