As for a more regular larger tourney it has been covered on a few threads now.
We as ploppers need to be realistic about Sky prioritisation of resources etc etc. We cannot expect a new flagship tourney and a bunch of advertising. We have to build from within to encourage nl players to try it out and any other o8 players we know on other sites to give sky a try.
My personal view is there is a community of people who play both nl and o8.
If I log on of an evening and there are o8 tables running I will join them as I get more enjoyment out of it. Thinking more about the game and usually having a nice set of people to chat with.
The rasing of the dym entries brought some nl dym grinders to the o8 games. We probably all started with plo8 out of a mixture of boredom with nl, curiosity, challenge, a desire to try and take Tikays money.
If I need points or I am playing to try and make money I will play other formats as my o8 form is shocking atm (ever since I started the 1000 game challenge)
This time last year I would of been on Tony's first list but a lack of liquidity, the time taken, and too many regulars mean I play more Turbo NLHE DYM's now.
I enjoy PLO8 more, but the time taken and the chance of playing non-regulars is a high price to pay.
I have pestered Tony on numerous occasions about the possibility of Turbo PlO8 DYM's, as I really think that they would be successful in attracting new blood to the 4 card game. This in turn would create a bigger player pool to enable the £500 monthly MTT to run, without too much cost to Sky through advertising. Turbo PLO8's would work particularly well during rake races such as the current Sky Poker Premiership.
In Response to Re: PLO8 tournament... : One thing to consider here from a Business perspective here is how a business optimises it's spend.
I agree fully. It wouldn't make much sense for Sky to spend like 30% of their budget on a game played by a small % of players.
There do appear to be areas where Sky could assign 0% of the spend though and increase the player pool. For example altering the rake on OH8 cash games to account for the split pot dynamic wouldn't 'cost anything' as nobody is playing them currently. Also if the rewards freerolls are already open to being tweaked and offering different games then it wouldn't cost any extra to assign one of them as PLO8 (I think PLO8 came quite high up the pecking order when there was a poll to see what games people would like to see in the rewards freerolls).
From my perspective as someone who personally hopes to see as many OH8 games as possible. I am only considering whether it looks possible for Sky to profitably offer more OH8 games as I would happily play a bunch of them. Obviously if this is the case then Sky gets more £'s and we get more games and everyone is a winner (well apart from those who lose).
Obviously the introduction of more OH8 MTT's is a decision for Sky as to whether it would be profitable or not. Whether they would be profitable or not ‘may’ however depend amongst other things on the above dynamics.
I am actually probably more on the same page as yourself than you think...
If a £1,000 flagship OH8 MTT were to be introduced in the current set up I think it would struggle. I personally think most OH8 MTT introductions would struggle in the current set up. I just don't think this is because the games themselves are not viable but more because of the cash game and freeroll situation and some other dynamics.
I would be surprised however if an evening £1 rebuy £100 GTD PLO8 MTT didn't become very popular even in the current set up. Those games can get rather crazy but are a lot of fun.
I also agree with the comments by Pompey that the OH8 community here is lucky to have you
Some figures that may or may not be of interest...
On NLH related stuff, which, probably, accounts for 95%+ of all Sky Poker Margin. (That number is a pure guess, but probably ball park). In fact, across all sites, what % of Margin generated comes from O8? 1%?
On a relatively obscure side game which, even on sites like 'Stars, has thin liquidity.
How much upside is there v downside?
I know the answer, so do you. It's never THAT clear cut, is it?
PLO8 I think would be about 1% of cash games but slightly higher in MTT's. If PLO is included then between them they have a reasonable share of the pie.
It is smaller amounts for sure. However I am sure we have all heard the 'What do pennies make?' statement There was an article by Greg Shaun recently pointing out that with poker traffic generally dropping he suggests that diversification is key. I think he is pointing more to the introduction of 'spin ups' and such things to compensate for any downswing but squeezing the margins and getting extra revenue if possible from non NLHE games could also be a worthwhile pursuit in that climate surely?
Not sure if these figures show room for maneuver? Most of these are Sky versus Stars comparisons and they are just a snapshot from figures at time of writing. Not hoping for a second that Sky will introduce as many OH8 games as stars, just to compare the percentage of the market PLO/OH8 can have.
Also it is understandable for people to say 'well go play on stars'… I do though! I would just like to play more here as I find Sky a much more enjoyable site than stars.
Figures from about an hour ago which I will leave open to interpretation...
Stars OH8 cash game traffic = 144 out of 13,088 players or about 1.1% of the player pool. Sky OH8 cash game traffic = 0 out of 513 players - 0% of player pool.
Stars PLO cash game traffic = 1364 out of 13,088 players or about 10.4% of the player pool. Sky PLO cash game traffic = 13 out of 513 players or about 2.5% of the player pool.
Considering the 97 regular MTT's running on stars an hour ago the share of the market by game variant between NLHE, PLO, OH8/PLO8 was... 81 NLHE (83.5%), 11 PLO8 (11.35%) & 5 PLO (5.15%).
In Response to Re: PLO8 tournament... : I agree fully. It wouldn't make much sense for Sky to spend like 30% of their budget on a game played by a small % of players. There do appear to be areas where Sky could assign 0% of the spend though and increase the player pool. For example altering the rake on OH8 cash games to account for the split pot dynamic wouldn't 'cost anything' as nobody is playing them currently. Also if the rewards freerolls are already open to being tweaked and offering different games then it wouldn't cost any extra to assign one of them as PLO8 (I think PLO8 came quite high up the pecking order when there was a poll to see what games people would like to see in the rewards freerolls). From my perspective as someone who personally hopes to see as many OH8 games as possible. I am only considering whether it looks possible for Sky to profitably offer more OH8 games as I would happily play a bunch of them. Obviously if this is the case then Sky gets more £'s and we get more games and everyone is a winner (well apart from those who lose). Obviously the introduction of more OH8 MTT's is a decision for Sky as to whether it would be profitable or not. Whether they would be profitable or not ‘may’ however depend amongst other things on the above dynamics. I am actually probably more on the same page as yourself than you think... If a £1,000 flagship OH8 MTT were to be introduced in the current set up I think it would struggle. I personally think most OH8 MTT introductions would struggle in the current set up. I just don't think this is because the games themselves are not viable but more because of the cash game and freeroll situation and some other dynamics. I would be surprised however if an evening £1 rebuy £100 GTD PLO8 MTT didn't become very popular even in the current set up. Those games can get rather crazy but are a lot of fun. I also agree with the comments by Pompey that the OH8 community here is lucky to have you Some figures that may or may not be of interest... Posted by markycash
I believe the rewards freerolls are Mon-Fri and if I understand correctly you want 2 of them to be Omaha related?
Basing decisions on what the forum says isn't the best plan. The numbers of players who use the forum is fairly low. I fear by just listening to forum views means the silent majority aren't listened to. There have been lots of times the forum is asked (eg wanting deepstack/headhunter MTTs etc) and they give their view then the numbers dont stack up.
You mention "healthy base of OH8 players on the site" but then there doesnt seem to be a large enough interest to meet a 100 player guarantee so I am not sure how these two link in together.
I do think something can be done for PLO8 but do feel realistic expectations are required and it will require players to be generating interest (as they have been doing before) as well as some effort on skypoker's part.
Interesting discussion. This time last year I would of been on Tony's first list but a lack of liquidity, the time taken, and too many regulars mean I play more Turbo NLHE DYM's now. I enjoy PLO8 more, but the time taken and the chance of playing non-regulars is a high price to pay. I have pestered Tony on numerous occasions about the possibility of Turbo PlO8 DYM's, as I really think that they would be successful in attracting new blood to the 4 card game. This in turn would create a bigger player pool to enable the £500 monthly MTT to run, without too much cost to Sky through advertising. Turbo PLO8's would work particularly well during rake races such as the current Sky Poker Premiership. Posted by winshoes
With dyms (and as a plo8 noob) over the past few days I have on several times tried getting a game going (low stakes).
No-one joins, then the NL games I am waiting in fill up quick and I have to leave the plo lobby as I cant play too many at a time whilst I am with my daughter.
I would love to play more, but during the day (its half term for me), next to nothing runs, and evenings I am often too busy elsewhere
In Response to Re: PLO8 tournament... : I believe the rewards freerolls are Mon-Fri and if I understand correctly you want 2 of them to be Omaha related? Basing decisions on what the forum says isn't the best plan. The numbers of players who use the forum is fairly low. I fear by just listening to forum views means the silent majority aren't listened to. There have been lots of times the forum is asked (eg wanting deepstack/headhunter MTTs etc) and they give their view then the numbers dont stack up. You mention " healthy base of OH8 players on the site" but then there doesnt seem to be a large enough interest to meet a 100 player guarantee so I am not sure how these two link in together. I do think something can be done for PLO8 but do feel realistic expectations are required and it will require players to be generating interest (as they have been doing before) as well as some effort on skypoker's part. Posted by MattBates
I would like them all to be plo8 with £1m prizepools but I doubt that will happen What I want isn't really of any importance, just offering a few suggestions. I would be more than happy personally if just 1 of the weekly rewards freerolls, on any day, alternated and offered OH8 occasionally. I mean there are a few who play OH8 and bothered to vote in the poll, do they not deserve ANY representation at all in the rewards program? I can understand 2 nights of Omaha related stuff might be a bit much for some but to have absolutely none ever doesn't seem ideal either.
I get your point on the forum opinions but the question was asked on the forum.
Meeting a 100 player guarantee really isn't the barometer of success for OH8 MTT's IMO. I have had many a buy in returned on stars because tourneys haven't had the minimum 3 or 5 players to start. The £100 one I mentioned was a rebuy that has worked on several small-medium sites.
Hopeful but realistic expectations for OH8 would probably be getting a couple of nightly MTT's to hit a 20-25 player buy in and maybe a slightly bigger weekend one. I don't think that is setting the bar ridiculously high?
Completely agree about the players helping generate interest. I have successfully encouraged 1 player to start playing the OH8 games semi-regularly and know another 2 who should be showing up in the next month or two. I haven't mentioned the site to all that many OH8 players I know yet but I will and hopefully can encourage a few more to try the site out.
Regarding the player base... I think considering the size of the site and that the cash games don't start much/at all due to the rake and that there aren't many MTT's, the player base here seems exceptional (not by NLHE standards obviously). The weekly leagues have a decent turn out and the DYM traffic has seemed reasonable even during the summer months.
Why does it have to be a flagship tourney with a guarantee? Why not try a £10er say 730 on a sunday and see how many entrants it gets? Or on rebuy or turbo night for people who dont like those formats? Posted by Phantom66
+1
I only mentioned flagship as there had been talk about a bigger weekend tourney akin to the roller.
A small rebuy turbo or 10er at a nice time slot with a tiny guarantee would be a great start. The ones without a guarantee seem harder to get going, even a 10 player guarantee would be a start.
I'll try & answer some of these, in no particular order.
Bear in mind we have had this exact debate on numerous occasions - & that's good, I rather like the idea of players making things happen, or trying to.
Also please remember that personally, for me, they can bin all NLH stuff & become 100% PLO8 & PLO. But it does not work like that, does it?
So I'm just trying to be Devils Advocate here, & try to explain how The Business might see it. I've not actually asked them (yet?), but I have a fair idea of their general Business Model, & the direction they want Sky Poker to go.
evening/morning, whatever it is! i can remember when plo8 on sky was a £2 dym. £3 didn't exist, and some nights only one or two £5 dyms would run all night. the game is growing, and that is great, give it time. sky always listens to player requests, unrealistic or not. ask for a £22 or £33 tourney and i am sure it will happen. ask for guarantees and buggger off, it won't. be realistic gang, asking for a guarantee is wrong. ask for the tourney, let the momentum grow xxxx Posted by Macacgirl1
Much as it pains me to ever listen to what I would describe as that woman, Lady Twaddle makes some fine points there.
It's barely 3 years ago there was almost zero liquidity in these PLO8 DYM's. Together, we, the players, built it. We never asked Sky for help, we just went & did it.
For every action there is a reaction, though. At the time there was some liquidity in PLO DYM's, but the upsurge in the PLO8 version completely killed the PLO jobbies.
If I'm not mistaken, Ger, at the time, only played PLO, but was almost forced to move across to O8 to find enough games.
My Bucket List includes trying to rev up the PLO DYM's, too, something I have been meaning to do for some time. And we COULD, very easily. Right now though, all we would probably achieve is split the healthy liquidity in the O8 version, & so we'd be, in some ways, worse off.
Its also worth noting that it is very hard indeed - almost impossible - to multi-table PLO & PLO8 at the same time. So it's not like we could do both on the same sessions, we'd need to start with dedicated PLO nights.
Sky Poker was a new start up, not part of a Network, so it's harder than it might look to grow it in a sustainable manner. It's going along very nicely though, far better in relative terms than any other site.
Comments
In Response to Re: PLO8 tournament...:
I agree fully. It wouldn't make much sense for Sky to spend like 30% of their budget on a game played by a small % of players.
There do appear to be areas where Sky could assign 0% of the spend though and increase the player pool. For example altering the rake on OH8 cash games to account for the split pot dynamic wouldn't 'cost anything' as nobody is playing them currently. Also if the rewards freerolls are already open to being tweaked and offering different games then it wouldn't cost any extra to assign one of them as PLO8 (I think PLO8 came quite high up the pecking order when there was a poll to see what games people would like to see in the rewards freerolls).From my perspective as someone who personally hopes to see as many OH8 games as possible. I am only considering whether it looks possible for Sky to profitably offer more OH8 games as I would happily play a bunch of them. Obviously if this is the case then Sky gets more £'s and we get more games and everyone is a winner (well apart from those who lose).
Obviously the introduction of more OH8 MTT's is a decision for Sky as to whether it would be profitable or not. Whether they would be profitable or not ‘may’ however depend amongst other things on the above dynamics.
I am actually probably more on the same page as yourself than you think...
If a £1,000 flagship OH8 MTT were to be introduced in the current set up I think it would struggle. I personally think most OH8 MTT introductions would struggle in the current set up. I just don't think this is because the games themselves are not viable but more because of the cash game and freeroll situation and some other dynamics.
I would be surprised however if an evening £1 rebuy £100 GTD PLO8 MTT didn't become very popular even in the current set up. Those games can get rather crazy but are a lot of fun.
I also agree with the comments by Pompey that the OH8 community here is lucky to have you
Some figures that may or may not be of interest...On a relatively obscure side game which, even on sites like 'Stars, has thin liquidity.
How much upside is there v downside?
I know the answer, so do you. It's never THAT clear cut, is it?
PLO8 I think would be about 1% of cash games but slightly higher in MTT's. If PLO is included then between them they have a reasonable share of the pie.
It is smaller amounts for sure. However I am sure we have all heard the 'What do pennies make?' statement
Not sure if these figures show room for maneuver? Most of these are Sky versus Stars comparisons and they are just a snapshot from figures at time of writing. Not hoping for a second that Sky will introduce as many OH8 games as stars, just to compare the percentage of the market PLO/OH8 can have.
Also it is understandable for people to say 'well go play on stars'… I do though! I would just like to play more here as I find Sky a much more enjoyable site than stars.
Figures from about an hour ago which I will leave open to interpretation...
Stars OH8 cash game traffic = 144 out of 13,088 players or about 1.1% of the player pool.
Sky OH8 cash game traffic = 0 out of 513 players - 0% of player pool.
Stars PLO cash game traffic = 1364 out of 13,088 players or about 10.4% of the player pool.
Sky PLO cash game traffic = 13 out of 513 players or about 2.5% of the player pool.
Considering the 97 regular MTT's running on stars an hour ago the share of the market by game variant between NLHE, PLO, OH8/PLO8 was... 81 NLHE (83.5%), 11 PLO8 (11.35%) & 5 PLO (5.15%).
No-one joins, then the NL games I am waiting in fill up quick and I have to leave the plo lobby as I cant play too many at a time whilst I am with my daughter.
I would love to play more, but during the day (its half term for me), next to nothing runs, and evenings I am often too busy elsewhere
I get your point on the forum opinions but the question was asked on the forum.
Meeting a 100 player guarantee really isn't the barometer of success for OH8 MTT's IMO. I have had many a buy in returned on stars because tourneys haven't had the minimum 3 or 5 players to start. The £100 one I mentioned was a rebuy that has worked on several small-medium sites.
Hopeful but realistic expectations for OH8 would probably be getting a couple of nightly MTT's to hit a 20-25 player buy in and maybe a slightly bigger weekend one. I don't think that is setting the bar ridiculously high?
Completely agree about the players helping generate interest. I have successfully encouraged 1 player to start playing the OH8 games semi-regularly and know another 2 who should be showing up in the next month or two. I haven't mentioned the site to all that many OH8 players I know yet but I will and hopefully can encourage a few more to try the site out.
Regarding the player base... I think considering the size of the site and that the cash games don't start much/at all due to the rake and that there aren't many MTT's, the player base here seems exceptional (not by NLHE standards obviously). The weekly leagues have a decent turn out and the DYM traffic has seemed reasonable even during the summer months.
I only mentioned flagship as there had been talk about a bigger weekend tourney akin to the roller.
A small rebuy turbo or 10er at a nice time slot with a tiny guarantee would be a great start. The ones without a guarantee seem harder to get going, even a 10 player guarantee would be a start.
If we get together and run one of them again, that would get numbers playing (Tikay, did games start easier when it ran last time?)
We could combine it with a nightly plo tourney, say maybe best 10 finishes in 30 days or something?
https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum%3adf77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion%3ac20071be-f825-4a47-b3c3-f6e5a40b4c13
Full details of the league can be found here...
https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby?action=show_static&page=poker_community_forums&plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a57795ac2-1793-4377-b4cf-e124b0f555f4Forum%3adf77f82c-151f-4bea-aae1-fb423dcae1faDiscussion%3a0da527b0-4886-4895-b366-f9423d5b23c1
I'll try & answer some of these, in no particular order.
Bear in mind we have had this exact debate on numerous occasions - & that's good, I rather like the idea of players making things happen, or trying to.
Also please remember that personally, for me, they can bin all NLH stuff & become 100% PLO8 & PLO. But it does not work like that, does it?
So I'm just trying to be Devils Advocate here, & try to explain how The Business might see it. I've not actually asked them (yet?), but I have a fair idea of their general Business Model, & the direction they want Sky Poker to go.
It's barely 3 years ago there was almost zero liquidity in these PLO8 DYM's. Together, we, the players, built it. We never asked Sky for help, we just went & did it.
For every action there is a reaction, though. At the time there was some liquidity in PLO DYM's, but the upsurge in the PLO8 version completely killed the PLO jobbies.
If I'm not mistaken, Ger, at the time, only played PLO, but was almost forced to move across to O8 to find enough games.
My Bucket List includes trying to rev up the PLO DYM's, too, something I have been meaning to do for some time. And we COULD, very easily. Right now though, all we would probably achieve is split the healthy liquidity in the O8 version, & so we'd be, in some ways, worse off.
Its also worth noting that it is very hard indeed - almost impossible - to multi-table PLO & PLO8 at the same time. So it's not like we could do both on the same sessions, we'd need to start with dedicated PLO nights.
Sky Poker was a new start up, not part of a Network, so it's harder than it might look to grow it in a sustainable manner. It's going along very nicely though, far better in relative terms than any other site.