James who would normally deal with this kind of thing is off ill and I have only just been made aware of the issue on Friday evening with the semi being cancelled. I would ask that you speak to customer care about an issue such as this in the future. Haysie I have refunded the satellite amount to your account.
Hi Haysie, James who would normally deal with this kind of thing is off ill and I have only just been made aware of the issue on Friday evening with the semi being cancelled. I would ask that you speak to customer care about an issue such as this in the future. Haysie I have refunded the satellite amount to your account. Posted by Sky_SamT
Was the money not refunded when the satellite was cancelled?
It was unclear when I tried to check, so I assumed it was. However if that is not the case, then all below need refunds:
There is an argument, as it was dubiously cancelled that the 4 players concerned should receive
£1,060 divided by 4 = £265, but I will address this with customer care and see how we go.
2 SEATS GUARANTEED. 1 in 5 win a seat into the £25,000 UKOPS 40 HIGH ROLLER on April 17th! 1 seat paid for every £530 in the prize pool. 10 minute blinds, late registration open for 1 hour.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : Hi Haysie, it is clearly set to 9.15pm to stop people registering, then playing a feeder sat, then un-registering from the target tournament to get their money back. So it stops people playing sats for cash, unless they have already satellited in. A sensible thing to do. imo Posted by StayOrGo
Ok thanks, I dont really understand the reasoning, but thats not super important. It is just something I have not been aware of before. This is obviously not the case with many of the sats that are available for entry in the lobby hours beforehand. For instance the high roller semi at 9.45pm tonight is available to enter now
Hi Haysie, James who would normally deal with this kind of thing is off ill and I have only just been made aware of the issue on Friday evening with the semi being cancelled. I would ask that you speak to customer care about an issue such as this in the future. Haysie I have refunded the satellite amount to your account. Posted by Sky_SamT
Hi Sam,
Firstly could you explain how Sky can cancel a tournament that has two guaranteed seats?
Secondly, why is it my responsibility to contact customer services when you (Sky) cancelled the tourney?
In Response to Re: high roller sat : Was the money not refunded when the satellite was cancelled? It was unclear when I tried to check, so I assumed it was. However if that is not the case, then all below need refunds: There is an argument, as it was dubiously cancelled that the 4 players concerned should receive £1,060 divided by 4 = £265, but I will address this with customer care and see how we go. Cheers, G UKOPS 40 £25K High Roller Semi Tournament Overview Blinds & Prize Structure Tables & Players Information Tournament ID: 31235455 Status Cancelled Start Date/Time 21:45 Current Prize Pool £424 Buyin + Fee £106 + £9 Description 2 SEATS GUARANTEED. 1 in 5 win a seat into the £25,000 UKOPS 40 HIGH ROLLER on April 17th! 1 seat paid for every £530 in the prize pool. 10 minute blinds, late registration open for 1 hour. Chip Stacks Starting Largest Smallest Average Rebuys and Addons Rebuys none Addons none Players Players Remaining: 4 / 4 Player Name Chips Rank Prize StayOrGo 3000 MattBates 3000 HAYSIE 3000 DustoLucko 3000 Posted by StayOrGo
Anybody like yourself that directly bought in were refunded automatically. Anybody that won a seat through a satellite wasn't. I will investigate why this was the case but I assume it is to do with the poker system not seeing a buy in amount for satellite winners.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : Hi Sam, Firstly could you explain how Sky can cancel a tournament that has two guaranteed seats? Secondly, why is it my responsibility to contact customer services when you (Sky) cancelled the tourney? Thirdly, how much was the refund? Posted by HAYSIE
All tournaments on the site have a minimum number of runners. We use the feature to protect ourselves from overlay and players having the ability to just shove all in first hand in order to maximise value. Of course we understand why players do this but you can appreciate it is not in our interest to just let this happen.
It shouldn't have been your responsibility to contact customer care but as I have mentioned, James who would ordinarily pick this up is off work for a period of time ill. In his absence I am picking up all the stuff he would be doing and you can appreciate UKOPS is just about our busiest week. If you do feel you are due a refend then customer care is the best place to go. Tikay will help on here but he has no access to the back end so could not check who was refunded and who wasn't.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : All tournaments on the site have a minimum number of runners. We use the feature to protect ourselves from overlay and players having the ability to just shove all in first hand in order to maximise value. Of course we understand why players do this but you can appreciate it is not in our interest to just let this happen. It shouldn't have been your responsibility to contact customer care but as I have mentioned, James who would ordinarily pick this up is off work for a period of time ill. In his absence I am picking up all the stuff he would be doing and you can appreciate UKOPS is just about our busiest week. If you do feel you are due a refend then customer care is the best place to go. Tikay will help on here but he has no access to the back end so could not check who was refunded and who wasn't. The refund was for £115. Sam Posted by Sky_SamT
Hi Sam,
I think you are completely missing the point. It is completely untrue to say that all tournaments on the site have a minimum number of runners. Graham sent in screen shots of the tourney in question and they are displayed on his post above. Sky chose to cancel this tourney with 4 runners registered, despite the fact that 2 seats to the final were GUARANTEED. Doing this ruled out any opportunity for late registrants, and probably broke the law. I am saying this because you offered the opportunity to buy into a tourney with 2 seats GUARANTEED, then at the very last minute failed to do so. I dont think it is legally possible to run tournaments with a guarantee and a minimum number of runners. You cannot say a tournament has a guarantee subject to a minimum number of runners entering, because that is not a GUARANTEE. A GUARANTEE cant logically be subject to anything. There were 4 entries and a prizepool of £1060. The four runners should therefore take an equal share of this prizeppol.
The 6pm high roller semi tonight had 39 runners and 10 seats guaranteed. You needed 50 runners to cover this guarantee, yet you didnt cancel it, and gave away the 10 seats.
The most important bit of this is that when you guarantee a number of seats, I believe that it gives the players confidence that they have a good shot at qualifying, and helps to increase entries. If you start reneging on your guarantees, it may have the opposite effect.
Oxford English definition below
GUARANTEE
SYNONYMS
promise, assurance, word, word of honour, pledge, vow, oath, bond, commitment
Provide a formal assurance, especially that certain conditions will be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction.
Every site I know has guarantees, but they DO have a minimum runner caveat.
The only problems for me, were that the minimum runner criteria was not known by the players, as in this instance it was not displayed in the description field, and obviously those who satellited in, were not refunded correctly.
However it was nice to see that the Super High Roller Semi TONIGHT did indeed specify that 5 runners was the minimum requirement.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : Anybody like yourself that directly bought in were refunded automatically. Anybody that won a seat through a satellite wasn't. I will investigate why this was the case but I assume it is to do with the poker system not seeing a buy in amount for satellite winners. Posted by Sky_SamT
Yes that makes sense.
I could be pedantic and suggest that the four of us should get a split of the prize pool as the min runners wasn't displayed, but this has gone on long enough, and from my perspective, at least, the matter is closed.
You have clearly acted on comments made by having it in the description field this time around, which is all I was asking for really.
Just to have the transparency to know what the cancellation criteria was.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : Yes that makes sense. I could be pedantic and suggest that the four of us should get a split of the prize pool as the min runners wasn't displayed, but this has gone on long enough, and from my perspective, at least, the matter is closed. You have clearly acted on comments made by having it in the description field this time around, which is all I was asking for really. Just to have the transparency to know what the cancellation criteria was. Thanks again, Graham Posted by StayOrGo
What is absolutely crystal clear to me is that you can have a guarantee or a minimum runners condition, you certaily cant have both.
Sky is attempting to have the penny and the bun.
Where you have a guarantee and a minimum runners condition and cancel the tournament, then the guarantee did not really exist in the first place.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : What is absolutely crystal clear to me is that you can have a guarantee or a minimum runners condition, you certaily cant have both. Sky is attempting to have the penny and the bun. Where you have a guarantee and a minimum runners condition and cancel the tournament, then the guarantee did not really exist in the first place. Posted by HAYSIE
I too have had enough now, and this is my last word on this topic.
Sky only cancelled the tourney in question to save money. It saved them over £600 which was over 60% of the prize pool. In my view this was not only short sighted as enough late registrants might have entered to cover the prize pool, but it was also short sighted not to think that this money was being saved at the expense of the players.
When I read that 2 seats were guaranteed prior to entering, I really believed it. My word is my bond, and expect the same from those that I deal with.
If Sky decided to reduce toights UKOPS rebuy prizemoney from 10k to 4k, due to lack of entries there would be uproar, but that would just be a 60% reduction in the prizepool.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : What is absolutely crystal clear to me is that you can have a guarantee or a minimum runners condition, you certaily cant have both. Sky is attempting to have the penny and the bun. Where you have a guarantee and a minimum runners condition and cancel the tournament, then the guarantee did not really exist in the first place. Posted by HAYSIE
Why not?
''2 seats guaranteed with a minimum of 5 runners'' (for example)
In Response to Re: high roller sat : Why not? ''2 seats guaranteed with a minimum of 5 runners'' (for example) Posted by hhyftrftdr
A guarantee is something that is definitely going to happen come **** or high water, a condition therefore negates the guarantee. In the example you quote, if you only got 4 runners and the tournament was cancelled then the seats were not guaranteed.
To say that one in five qualify for a seat, and cancel the tourney if you only got four runners, is completely fair. To say that two seats are guaranteed when they are not, isnt.
The dictionary definition of the word guarantee is below
Provide a formal assurance, especially that certain conditions will be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction.
The assurance in question was the guarantee, which didnt happen.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : A guarantee is something that is definitely going to happen come **** or high water, a condition therefore negates the guarantee. In the example you quote, if you only got 4 runners and the tournament was cancelled then the seats were not guaranteed. To say that one in five qualify for a seat, and cancel the tourney if you only got four runners, is completely fair. To say that two seats are guaranteed when they are not, isnt. The dictionary definition of the word guarantee is below Provide a formal assurance, especially that certain conditions will be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction. The assurance in question was the guarantee, which didnt happen. Posted by HAYSIE
What if it was worded.....''If this tournament starts with 5 or more runners, we guarantee 2 seats''.....
In Response to Re: high roller sat : Agree, most commercial guarantees I know, have conditions. Here's a few examples: Best Odds Guaranteed (Singles only) Clothing Money Back Guarantee (Only if not worn) Faulty Goods Refund Guarantee (Unless Damaged through Neglect) Satisfaction Guaranteed (How can anyone say that lol, but they do) So this is not unique to Sky or Poker even. My only gripe, is when the conditions that negate the guarantee are not detailed anywhere. Posted by StayOrGo
I have to reply to this, because with all due respect it is absolute nonsense.
What happened was that Sky set up a semi final tourney. The only valid conditions as far as our discussion is concerned is that 2 seats in the final were guaranteed. There was no stipulation of a minimum number of runners. So as far as I was concerned 2 seats to the final were defintely being given away, because Sky said so, in writing, in the terms and conditions of the tourney. Yet someone from Sky decided to cancel the tourney, and therefore renege on the guarantee.
As far as your examples are concerned the only comparable one is the best odds guaranteed. You know beforehand that it is singles only, so couldnt moan about not getting it on a double or a treble.
Sky cancelled this tourney and didnt pay out the two seats purely to save money.
To compare this to the guaranteed odds scenario, what Sky have done is guaranteed the odds, and then after the event cancelled the bets because the guarantee was going to cost too much and just refunded your stake.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : What if it was worded.....''If this tournament starts with 5 or more runners, we guarantee 2 seats''..... Posted by hhyftrftdr
In the tourney we have been discussing they needed 10 runners to cover two seats. I think you must choose between guaranteeing or not, and if you guarantee any seats you have to give them away. The normal sats are one in five qualifies. So if you accept this and just say one in five will qualify for the final, everybody is happy and there is nothing that anyone can possibly moan about.
However, the problem with this is I think they like saying 5 or 10 seats guaranteed, to maybe attract more entries, and wheedle out of the guarantees when they dont get the runners.
To have guarantees and minimum numbers of runners is nonsense.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : In the tourney we have been discussing they needed 10 runners to cover two seats. I think you must choose between guaranteeing or not, and if you guarantee any seats you have to give them away. The normal sats are one in five qualifies. So if you accept this and just say one in five will qualify for the final, everybody is happy and there is nothing that anyone can possibly moan about. However, the problem with this is I think they like saying 5 or 10 seats guaranteed, to maybe attract more entries, and wheedle out of the guarantees when they dont get the runners. To have guarantees and minimum numbers of runners is nonsense. Posted by HAYSIE
No its not, and they go hand in hand. The guaranteed seats help generate interest/entries, the minimum number of runners required limits Sky's liability to big overlay/possible collusion.
Underlined bit....well I'm sure certain people would still find a way to complain.
In Response to Re: high roller sat : No its not, and they go hand in hand. The guaranteed seats help generate interest/entries, the minimum number of runners required limits Sky's liability to big overlay/possible collusion. Underlined bit....well I'm sure certain people would still find a way to complain. Posted by hhyftrftdr
Whats the point of having a guarantee if they ignore the guarantee and just cancel the tourney?
If you enter a tourney because of the number of guaranteed seats, and this can be changed at a whim, isnt that wrong?
If the required number to avoid any overlay is 1 in 5 then why not just say that. Therefore if there were 50 runners and 10 seats or 5 runners and one seat, your chance of winning is 1 in 5 irrespective of the actual number of entries.
Comments
Information
Tournament ID: 31235455
Chip Stacks
Rebuys and Addons
Players
Players Remaining: 4 / 4
promise, assurance, word, word of honour, pledge, vow, oath, bond, commitment
Provide a formal assurance, especially that certain conditions will be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction.
Best Odds Guaranteed (Singles only)
Provide a formal assurance, especially that certain conditions will be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction.