poker the good the bad and the average

TheMadMonk

most times ime a pretty average player,sometimes ime a woeful player [and i feel like packing it in] but every now and again i play like the greatest player in the world imo .and cant wait for the next game to start.

its nowt to do with running bad or winning races,i know when ime play average,i know when ime playing bad and i know when ime playing my best game.

what i dont know how to do is play my A game all the time.

ive started reading the two mental game of poker books,to see if that helps,anyone read them?

anyone any ideas on the subject of playing your A game all the time?

chrispip

In Response to poker the good the bad and the average:

most times ime a pretty average player,sometimes ime a woeful player [and i feel like packing it in] but every now and again i play like the greatest player in the world imo .and cant wait for the next game to start. its nowt to do with running bad or winning races,i know when ime play average,i know when ime playing bad and i know when ime playing my best game. what i dont know how to do is play my A game all the time. ive started reading the two mental game of poker books,to see if that helps,anyone read them? anyone any ideas on the subject of playing your A game all the time?
Posted by TheMadMonk

Sir Matthew of Upminster might be able to help.

MattBates

I dont think you can play your A game all the time. It is something to aspire to but I dont think it is realistic unless you sacrifice volume massively purely to only ever play your A game. 

I would try to identify the things that help you play your A game and also try to identify the things you do when you are playing your B game or even worse your C game or even Z game! Half of the battle is realising things in a timely manner. If you realise during a session that you are off your game you have a chance to resolve things. 

If you identify certain things that you do which means you are not on the top of your game then you can focus on those areas. It might be not giving smaller buy in games appropriate focus when they are your last game. It could be tilting after losing big hands and trying to make moves to win back those chips. It could be nitting up around the bubble. There are so many potential things and some effect our profit a lot more than others. 

I know some MTT players rate their play every break as it helps them focus on the quality of their play. 

If before you play you realise that you are in the wrong frame of mind then it might be better not to reg rather than play when the chances are you will be playing below expectations. 

gazza127

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

I dont think you can play your A game all the time. It is something to aspire to but I dont think it is realistic unless you sacrifice volume massively purely to only ever play your A game.  I would try to identify the things that help you play your A game and also try to identify the things you do when you are playing your B game or even worse your C game or even Z game! Half of the battle is realising things in a timely manner. If you realise during a session that you are off your game you have a chance to resolve things.  If you identify certain things that you do which means you are not on the top of your game then you can focus on those areas. It might be not giving smaller buy in games appropriate focus when they are your last game. It could be tilting after losing big hands and trying to make moves to win back those chips. It could be nitting up around the bubble. There are so many potential things and some effect our profit a lot more than others.  I know some MTT players rate their play every break as it helps them focus on the quality of their play.  If before you play you realise that you are in the wrong frame of mind then it might be better not to reg rather than play when the chances are you will be playing below expectations. 
Posted by MattBates

Just imagining you giving yourself a gold star on some elaborate wall chart every hour.

markycash

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

I dont think you can play your A game all the time. It is something to aspire to but I dont think it is realistic unless you sacrifice volume massively purely to only ever play your A game.  I would try to identify the things that help you play your A game and also try to identify the things you do when you are playing your B game or even worse your C game or even Z game! Half of the battle is realising things in a timely manner. If you realise during a session that you are off your game you have a chance to resolve things.  If you identify certain things that you do which means you are not on the top of your game then you can focus on those areas. It might be not giving smaller buy in games appropriate focus when they are your last game. It could be tilting after losing big hands and trying to make moves to win back those chips. It could be nitting up around the bubble. There are so many potential things and some effect our profit a lot more than others.  I know some MTT players rate their play every break as it helps them focus on the quality of their play.  If before you play you realise that you are in the wrong frame of mind then it might be better not to reg rather than play when the chances are you will be playing below expectations. 
Posted by MattBates

Cracking points.

The mental side of poker is probably one of the most overlooked areas when people try to develop their game.

As the mental side is so important I agree that it may be good to try and play our 'A game' all the time however it will be near impossible to achieve as our mental state is fluid.

I started a thread on the psychology of poker a few months ago as it seems insanely relevant to me. I could ramble on forever about this side to poker but I will spare you all from a massive wall of text for now

TheMadMonk

yep some good points,i always have a think about how i played  after my games end,never thought about doing it at every break, its possible doing something as simple as that could make a big differance.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

yep some good points,i always have a think about how i played  after my games end,never thought about doing it at every break, its possible doing something as simple as that could make a big differance.
Posted by TheMadMonk

Surely the most important aspect is to have a strategy that works.

Obviously a different strategy is required for each different tournament format. It would be foolish to play a turbo in the same way you would play a deep stack.

It would be unwise to think you could win a poker tournament by just being motivated if your strategy was poor.

I think that many new players play differently each time they play, as they dont have a strategy. This makes consistent results impossible. Players like Matt Bates can win mtts in their sleep, as they dont even have to think about what they are going to do most of the time.

The better your strategy works, the more consistent your results will be, and the more profit you will make.

Once you have a strategy, you can concentrate on motivation, ruling out mistakes etc.

Without a strategy results will be full of massive peaks, troughs, and much disappointment.

The best example I can put forward to back this up is that Annette Obrestad was once filmed winning an online poker tournament with a post it sticker stuck over her cards. So she won the tourney without seeing any of her hands, and just by having a very aggressive strategy.

Once you have a strategy you can look for improvement, until then you will just play inconsistently, and carry on depositing.

I consider myself a player still on a quest to find this ideal strategy, and am not writing this as an expert in any shape or form.

Just hope it helps.

HAYSIE

In Response to poker the good the bad and the average:

most times ime a pretty average player,sometimes ime a woeful player [and i feel like packing it in] but every now and again i play like the greatest player in the world imo .and cant wait for the next game to start. its nowt to do with running bad or winning races,i know when ime play average,i know when ime playing bad and i know when ime playing my best game. what i dont know how to do is play my A game all the time. ive started reading the two mental game of poker books,to see if that helps,anyone read them? anyone any ideas on the subject of playing your A game all the time?
Posted by TheMadMonk

If this is true, and you can differentiate when you are playing very well and playing badly, then what are the things you are doing that are incorrect, when you are able to see that you are playing badly. These are mistakes. So if you are able to see that you are making mistakes, then why would you continue making them.

If calling with a silly hand out of position is wrong, then it is not wrong sometimes, it is always wrong. If you are making mistakes on purpose, under the guise of not playing well, then nobody can help you. No matter how many books you read, they will still be mistakes.

To continue doing this is like popping down to the bank, withdrawing a wad of cash, dropping it down the drain outside, and going back there next week and doing exactly the same thing.

Someone that was famous, and much cleverer than me, once said that "it would be foolish to get up tomorrow, do exactly the same thing as you have done today, and expect a different result"

markycash

Hey Haysie,

Hope all is well with you. Personally I see things a little different and I am sure others would see it different from both of us which makes for good poker debate

The way I see it...

In Response to Re: It would be unwise to think you could win a poker tournament by just being motivated if your strategy was poor.
Posted by HAYSIE

I personally feel that this sort of suggests there is an exact fixed way to play situations all the time and you just need to find how to play every sitatuation and you are sorted. While push/fold charts and the like have merit I don't view the game this way.

As a crude example I could have action folded to me with A8s in mid position and what I do with this holding in this fixed situation could vary to every point on the spectrum based upon other factors such as who was to act after me. Again as a crude example if I open and a tight player 3 bet shoves I may fold but if a loose maniac 3 bet shoves I may decide to call.

I feel you have to be in a good motivated place to spot a lot of the information which will inform these decisions. I would say Annette's win with the hole cards covered would rely heavily on spotting player betting habits, being deeply focussed on pot odds, blinds/antes, etc etc. To pick up and mesh all these bits of information I feel requires a high level of motivation rather than just a specific fixed strategy.

In Response to Re: Players like Matt Bates can win mtts in their sleep, as they dont even have to think about what they are going to do most of the time.
Posted by HAYSIE

I can't speak for Matt but while there are situations he knows may be an insta reraise or insta fold etc... I would bet good money there are tons of situations he gives deep thought to that a fixed strategy for what to do in every situation might not optimally address.

In Response to Re: If calling with a silly hand out of position is wrong, then it is not wrong sometimes, it is always wrong.
Posted by HAYSIE

I would disagree and as alluded to above, for me it would depend so much on other factors that a 'fixed winning strategy' would miss. For example, calling a 3x raise in the BB with 27o is obviously highly questionable and would on paper be a losing play. I doubt many strategies would advise calling with this. My play would vary according to my opponents though. If the raiser was folding to post flop pressure almost all of the time then I may call with any 2 and apply post flop pressure. If it was a highly competent player raising my BB in this scenario then obviously I would mostly be folding. So calling the silly hands out of position can be correct sometimes and wrong other times. Whether we call or fold will often depend heavily on our read of the players and what we can get away with which will require us to be motivated to spot.

I would also say I like to vary my play a lot and not have a certain strategy. If we do the same thing in the same situation all the time then it can obviously be highly exploitable.

I would agree obviously that a strong general strategy and approach are important but so is the motivation and psychology part IMO. I also think both can be addressed at the same time.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

Hey Haysie, Hope all is well with you. Personally I see things a little different and I am sure others would see it different from both of us which makes for good poker debate The way I see it... I personally feel that this sort of suggests there is an exact fixed way to play situations all the time and you just need to find how to play every sitatuation and you are sorted. While push/fold charts and the like have merit I don't view the game this way. As a crude example I could have action folded to me with A8s in mid position and what I do with this holding in this fixed situation could vary to every point on the spectrum based upon other factors such as who was to act after me. Again as a crude example if I open and a tight player 3 bet shoves I may fold but if a loose maniac 3 bet shoves I may decide to call. I feel you have to be in a good motivated place to spot a lot of the information which will inform these decisions. I would say Annette's win with the hole cards covered would rely heavily on spotting player betting habits, being deeply focussed on pot odds, blinds/antes, etc etc. To pick up and mesh all these bits of information I feel requires a high level of motivation rather than just a specific fixed strategy. I can't speak for Matt but while there are situations he knows may be an insta reraise or insta fold etc... I would bet good money there are tons of situations he gives deep thought to that a fixed strategy for what to do in every situation might not optimally address. I would disagree and as alluded to above, for me it would depend so much on other factors that a 'fixed winning strategy' would miss. For example, calling a 3x raise in the BB with 27o is obviously highly questionable and would on paper be a losing play. I doubt many strategies would advise calling with this. My play would vary according to my opponents though. If the raiser was folding to post flop pressure almost all of the time then I may call with any 2 and apply post flop pressure. If it was a highly competent player raising my BB in this scenario then obviously I would mostly be folding. So calling the silly hands out of position can be correct sometimes and wrong other times. Whether we call or fold will often depend heavily on our read of the players and what we can get away with which will require us to be motivated to spot. I would also say I like to vary my play a lot and not have a certain strategy. If we do the same thing in the same situation all the time then it can obviously be highly exploitable. I would agree obviously that a strong general strategy and approach are important but so is the motivation and psychology part IMO. I also think both can be addressed at the same time.
Posted by markycash

Hi Marky,

I am fine thanks, I hope you are also in good health.

Firstly I must say that I dont feel qualified to give anyone any complicated advice.

In Response to Re: It would be unwise to think you could win a poker tournament by just being motivated if your strategy was poor.
Posted by HAYSIE

The above is the first point you disputed.

The point I was merely trying to make was that as the player in question stated himself that he has 3 ways of playing, very good, pretty average, and woeful. If he is very motivated on a woeful day, its not going to affect his results. To describe his play in this way seems to suggest that he doesnt have a basic strategy. I think that for many players a basic strategy is a starting point. This starting point can obviously be changed, varied, improved upon and situationally adjusted, but without this starting point and playing in a completely different way every day it is surely difficult to improve? What would be the point of improving on todays play if iyour play was going to completely change tomorrow.

I think that many players that have a basic strategy will improve the way they play as they become more experienced and find out for themselves what works and what doesnt.

Point 2

I would say Annette's win with the hole cards covered would rely heavily on spotting player betting habits, being deeply focussed on pot odds, blinds/antes, etc etc.

I would say that what you describe above is part of her strategy.

Point 3

I can't speak for Matt but while there are situations he knows may be an insta reraise or insta fold etc... I would bet good money there are tons of situations he gives deep thought to that a fixed strategy for what to do in every situation might not optimally address.

I dont know Matt or the number of tables he plays, but the deep thought can last a maximum of 15 seconds on one table, and many players like Matt multi table 10 plus tables, allowing less time for the deep thinking.

To suggest that poker could be played with a fixed strategy clearly overlooks the fact that it is situational. I would not suggest that.

Point 4

In Response to Re: If calling with a silly hand out of position is wrong, then it is not wrong sometimes, it is always wrong.
Posted by HAYSIE

I was thinking about calling with 7 2 off under the gun, and being forced to fold on many occasions. I would argue that there are many silly hands that you wouldnt want to play out of position, unless you were on a woeful day. You can either accept that or sit here for 2 weeks arguing specific hands in different situations.

If someone describes their own play as woeful, what do you think they are doing other than playing silly hands out of position,  making silly calls or silly bets?

markycash

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average : Hi Marky, I am fine thanks, I hope you are also in good health. Firstly I must say that I dont feel qualified to give anyone any complicated advice. 
Posted by HAYSIE

All good here too Haysie thanks!

Always great to discuss these things, I know I have so so much to learn and talking stuff over like this certainly helps. 

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average : Hi Marky, I am fine thanks, I hope you are also in good health. Firstly I must say that I dont feel qualified to give anyone any complicated advice. In Response to Re: It would be unwise to think you could win a poker tournament by just being motivated if your strategy was poor. Posted by HAYSIE The above is the first point you disputed. The point I was merely trying to make was that as the player in question stated himself that he has 3 ways of playing, very good, pretty average, and woeful. If he is very motivated on a woeful day, its not going to affect his results. To describe his play in this way seems to suggest that he doesnt have a basic strategy. I think that for many players a basic strategy is a starting point. This starting point can obviously be changed, varied, improved upon and situationally adjusted, but without this starting point and playing in a completely different way every day it is surely difficult to improve? What would be the point of improving on todays play if iyour play was going to completely change tomorrow. I think that many players that have a basic strategy will improve the way they play as they become more experienced and find out for themselves what works and what doesnt. Point 2 I would say Annette's win with the hole cards covered would rely heavily on spotting player betting habits, being deeply focussed on pot odds, blinds/antes, etc etc. I would say that what you describe above is part of her strategy. Point 3 I can't speak for Matt but while there are situations he knows may be an insta reraise or insta fold etc... I would bet good money there are tons of situations he gives deep thought to that a fixed strategy for what to do in every situation might not optimally address. I dont know Matt or the number of tables he plays, but the deep thought can last a maximum of 15 seconds on one table, and many players like Matt multi table 10 plus tables, allowing less time for the deep thinking. To suggest that poker could be played with a fixed strategy clearly overlooks the fact that it is situational. I would not suggest that. Point 4 In Response to Re:  If calling with a silly hand out of position is wrong, then it is not wrong sometimes, it is always wrong. Posted by HAYSIE I was thinking about calling with 7 2 off under the gun, and being forced to fold on many occasions. I would argue that there are many silly hands that you wouldnt want to play out of position, unless you were on a woeful day. You can either accept that or sit here for 2 weeks arguing specific hands in different situations. If someone describes their own play as woeful, what do you think they are doing other than playing silly hands out of position,  making silly calls or silly bets?
Posted by HAYSIE

I think we agree more than we disagree. I thought you were suggesting a more fixed strategy that wasn't as fluid and adaptable to situational specifics.

Regarding Matt and the maximum of 15 secs to act. I agree with the point generally but even when multi tabling I know I will start mulling over troublesome spots before the action gets to me and the 15 secs kicks in.

For example you are dealt pocket 10s in mid position and utg miniraises... We start thinking about what we intend to do and what our stack size and opponents stack sizes are etc before the 15 seconds timebank starts or action gets to us. I agree we will have a basic strategy in the background as to how we will approach similar spots and this obviously is extremely important. I just feel that if we lack motivation then we can often revert to an 'abc' style of play and may not pick up on all the info that is available. I would imagine then that being motivated and playing our 'A game' are quite heavily linked.


In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

If someone describes their own play as woeful, what do you think they are doing other than playing silly hands out of position,  making silly calls or silly bets?
Posted by HAYSIE

For me at least if my play is bad then it is usually because I am not particularly motivated and revert to an 'abc' style of play and do not properly consider all the info that is available. I often spot mistakes I have made before my opponent has reacted and realise I have been a bit lazy in a certain spot. I may not have made a 'terrible play' and my hand may have merited a certain action but there were more optimal lines to be taken. It could even be something like folding in the cut off with a marginal hand because your focus was lax and you had not taken into account that the blinds were tight or were trying to scrape into the money.

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

In Response to  Re: poker the good the bad and the average : All good here too Haysie thanks! Always great to discuss these things, I know I have so so much to learn and talking stuff over like this certainly helps.  In Response to  Re: poker the good the bad and the average : I think we agree more than we disagree. I thought you were suggesting a more fixed strategy that wasn't as fluid and adaptable to situational specifics. Regarding Matt and the maximum of 15 secs to act. I agree with the point generally but even when multi tabling I know I will start mulling over troublesome spots before the action gets to me and the 15 secs kicks in. For example you are dealt pocket 10s in mid position and utg miniraises... We start thinking about what we intend to do and what our stack size and opponents stack sizes are etc before the 15 seconds timebank starts or action gets to us. I agree we will have a basic strategy in the background as to how we will approach similar spots and this obviously is extremely important. I just feel that if we lack motivation then we can often revert to an 'abc' style of play and may not pick up on all the info that is available. I would imagine then that being motivated and playing our 'A game' are quite heavily linked. In Response to  Re: poker the good the bad and the average : For me at least if my play is bad then it is usually because I am not particularly motivated and revert to an 'abc' style of play and do not properly consider all the info that is available. I often spot mistakes I have made before my opponent has reacted and realise I have been a bit lazy in a certain spot. I may not have made a 'terrible play' and my hand may have merited a certain action but there were more optimal lines to be taken. It could even be something like folding in the cut off with a marginal hand because your focus was lax and you had not taken into account that the blinds were tight or were trying to scrape into the money.
Posted by markycash

Regarding the 15 seconds, if you are multi tabling there are many occasions when you dont even see the table until it is your turn to bet.

As far as motivation is concerned, I think it is easy to get motivated for an SPT, high roller, Vegas, UKOPS, or other big events or occasions. However getting yorself motivated to get up every day and grind away playing the same tournaments is much more difficult. You have to be happy to do it or it will drive you mad, but realistically I dont know many people that leap out of bed itching to play a £22 bounty Hunter with around 20 runners.

Discipline is really important.

Isnt how you deal with each different type of player part of your stategy?

Although motivation is obviously important to you I firmly believe that it is impossible to acheive consistent results, and show a profit unless you have a sound strategy. If you play inconsistently, it is a Ronseal, your results will be inconsistent.

Sharkscope do a graph for each player. Matt Bates has a graph that is all green, and follows a perfect upward curve. It is a graph we would all wish to emulate.

Yet someone who is playing inconsistently would have a graph that is green, red, and full of peaks and troughs.

Anyway I have had enough of this now, onwards and upwards, and good luck on the tables.

markycash

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average : Regarding the 15 seconds, if you are multi tabling there are many occasions when you dont even see the table until it is your turn to bet. As far as motivation is concerned, I think it is easy to get motivated for an SPT, high roller, Vegas, UKOPS, or other big events or occasions. However getting yorself motivated to get up every day and grind away playing the same tournaments is much more difficult. You have to be happy to do it or it will drive you mad, but realistically I dont know many people that leap out of bed itching to play a £22 bounty Hunter with around 20 runners. Discipline is really important. Isnt how you deal with each different type of player part of your stategy? Although motivation is obviously important to you I firmly believe that it is impossible to acheive consistent results, and show a profit unless you have a sound strategy. If you play inconsistently, it is a Ronseal, your results will be inconsistent. Sharkscope do a graph for each player. Matt Bates has a graph that is all green, and follows a perfect upward curve. It is a graph we would all wish to emulate. Yet someone who is playing inconsistently would have a graph that is green, red, and full of peaks and troughs. Anyway I have had enough of this now, onwards and upwards, and good luck on the tables.
Posted by HAYSIE

Yes to be honest I think we have just started debating the definition of strategy.

All I will say is that I would bet a lot of money that there would be a significant positive correlation between a good mindset and good poker results.

GL on the tables Haysie!

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average : Yes to be honest I think we have just started debating the definition of strategy. All I will say is that I would bet a lot of money that there would be a significant positive correlation between a good mindset and good poker results. GL on the tables Haysie!
Posted by markycash

This is not me determined to get the last word, I am just at a loose end at the moment.

I would agree that motivation can make a massive difference to peoples performance in all walks of life. I have spent the majority of my working life in sales, where the motivational ability of a sales manager is prized above all else. However, for  self motivation in poker to have an effect a number of conditions have to be in place.

Imagine trying to coach a poker player that played in a different way each time you met with them. Where would you start. It would be much easier to deal with somneone who played terribly. As long as they were consistently terrible. At least you would have a starting point. You could then start to improve their play. I dont think you can turn a terrible player into a winning player by motivation alone. An unmotivated good player will beat a motivated terrible player every time.

I can painfully remember my own experience learning to play poker. At the time I was working and luckily earning a lot of money. I took up poker as an alternative to backing very slow racehorses, which I had done for many years. This strategy worked, and whatever I lost playing poker would never match what I had become used to losing on the slow horses.

I started playing the open every day, and then went on to playing dyms. I started on £33 and £55 dyms. I didnt start low and build up.

If you look at my sharkscope my profit on all games is £15k lower than on my scheduled games. This £15k is the money I spent providing holidays for Jac, Nutter, TommyD, TimmyRaRa, and the other sharks that play the dyms. I lost this money because I didnt have the game (strategy) to play against these players and was nothing to do with my motivation. As I said I was working at the time, and still looked forward to finishing work every day and play a bit of poker. Whatever my level of motivation, it just couldnt make up for my lack of ability.

Needless to say I just play mtts now. I am aware of my limitations, keep trying to improve, but make a regular small profit which is handy now I am retired. I sincerely hope that lot are all missing their free holidays.

The learning process for poker is clear, and extolled by all the experts. Start at low levels and dont move up until you are profitable at your current level. Having moved up, if you are not profitable at the higher level drop back down. This advice is ignored by so many.

So what I am saying is that motivation can have a massive effect if you are playing at the correct level, but will never make up for a lack of ability.

When I was contributing heavily to the dym sharks bankrolls, I was saying the same things as all likeminded players do. When asked I would say I was breaking even, I would get my most recent wins into the conversation, and never mentioned the free holidays I had given away.

Phantom66

I think there is a big a difference between motivation to play and motivation to improve.

Being in the right frame of mind for any given session, not being distracted, playing the optimum number of tables and the right game types/buyins for you is important and can make a big difference to performance.

I expect most high volume winning players can still win with their B/C game.

Being motivated to improve has to be the key to long term success at any level.

markycash

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average : This is not me determined to get the last word, I am just at a loose end at the moment. I would agree that motivation can make a massive difference to peoples performance in all walks of life. I have spent the majority of my working life in sales, where the motivational ability of a sales manager is prized above all else. However, for  self motivation in poker to have an effect a number of conditions have to be in place. Imagine trying to coach a poker player that played in a different way each time you met with them. Where would you start. It would be much easier to deal with somneone who played terribly. As long as they were consistently terrible. At least you would have a starting point. You could then start to improve their play. I dont think you can turn a terrible player into a winning player by motivation alone. An unmotivated good player will beat a motivated terrible player every time. I can painfully remember my own experience learning to play poker. At the time I was working and luckily earning a lot of money. I took up poker as an alternative to backing very slow racehorses, which I had done for many years. This strategy worked, and whatever I lost playing poker would never match what I had become used to losing on the slow horses. I started playing the open every day, and then went on to playing dyms. I started on £33 and £55 dyms. I didnt start low and build up. If you look at my sharkscope my profit on all games is £15k lower than on my scheduled games. This £15k is the money I spent providing holidays for Jac, Nutter, TommyD, TimmyRaRa, and the other sharks that play the dyms. I lost this money because I didnt have the game (strategy) to play against these players and was nothing to do with my motivation. As I said I was working at the time, and still looked forward to finishing work every day and play a bit of poker. Whatever my level of motivation, it just couldnt make up for my lack of ability. Needless to say I just play mtts now. I am aware of my limitations, keep trying to improve, but make a regular small profit which is handy now I am retired. I sincerely hope that lot are all missing their free holidays. The learning process for poker is clear, and extolled by all the experts. Start at low levels and dont move up until you are profitable at your current level. Having moved up, if you are not profitable at the higher level drop back down. This advice is ignored by so many. So what I am saying is that motivation can have a massive effect if you are playing at the correct level, but will never make up for a lack of ability. When I was contributing heavily to the dym sharks bankrolls, I was saying the same things as all likeminded players do. When asked I would say I was breaking even, I would get my most recent wins into the conversation, and never mentioned the free holidays I had given away.
Posted by HAYSIE

Yeah I remember my dad saying after he was chatting to you that you had switched from backing the horses to playing poker.

I would never try to say that having a sound understanding of strategy is not a massively important factor in poker. I just feel that the motivational or psychological aspects and the more quantitative strategic aspects of the game are completely seperate variables which influence one another and our results, but that can be tackled in unison. 

To give a practical example which addresses the points you mention...

I think if you took 100 erratic losing players with ROIs of -10% and worked on their all round psychological approach to the game you would see a positive influence on their results. Maybe it would only take their roi to -5%, but I think there would be an overall positive difference.

If you took 100 highly successful players with ROIs of +75% and worked on their all round psychological approach then again I would expect to see a positive influence on results.

Basically I would agree there is no substitute for sound strategy but feel that you could see a general improvement in any group of players if their overall psychological approach to poker was improved. Alas IMO the psychological aspects matter to all players regarless of level and the strategic side matters to all levels of player if the desire is to improve results.

The improvement would of course only be relative to how they were currently performing. So I am not saying that you can make a 'terrible player' start to own Matt, Timmy or Tommy etc on the felt because you have 'motivated them'. I have no doubt however that, on average, such players would at the very least be a less 'terrible player' and show improvement in relation to how they were performing previously.

HENDRIK62

I will briefly throw in my two cents (Marky take notes and get motivated to be more concise :-)).

I think this applies to most endeavors, golf being my area of 'expertise' I will use that as an example.

For as long as I can remember we have argued the merits of in game mindset, technique, preparatory mindset, strategy etc etc.

Applied strategy without the technique to back it up will fail.

Strategy without an understanding of your limitations will fail.

Motivation without strategy or technique will fail.

Tiger Woods decimated the field at Hoylake by understanding his limitations (yes the best player in the World at the time)

His strategy was to leave driver in the bag and effectively play a longer course than the rest of the field, without total confidence in his technique and his ability to hit greens with longer approaches, this would have failed.

I can scream at the mirror until I am blue in the face and motivate the **** out of myself, but unless I learn how, I am not able to consume as many kebabs as Hhy........

So the takeaway (pun intended) is that everything counts..... :-).  

Now wheres my fence?

markycash

Ha, quality post Paul ;-)

^ See, I can do concise!

rancid

All you can do is honestly look at how you have played and review hands with an unbiased view.

you also need to ensure your in the right frame of mind before playing.

dont put too much pressure on yoruself, no one plays A game all the time.

impossible

stokefc

Was hoping to play tonight but don't think I will be in the right frame of mind. I've just been diverted to Liverpool airport due to bad weather in Manchester so we,re stuck on the tarmac waiting and waiting 

What dya think shall I play or not 

One piisessed off stokie

HAYSIE

In Response to Re: poker the good the bad and the average:

I think there is a big a difference between motivation to play and motivation to improve. Being in the right frame of mind for any given session, not being distracted, playing the optimum number of tables and the right game types/buyins for you is important and can make a big difference to performance. I expect most high volume winning players can still win with their B/C game. Being motivated to improve has to be the key to long term success at any level.
Posted by Phantom66

Cant argie with any of that. I think that some of the newer players think that there is a magic wand somewhere out there that will completely transform their game, and win millions by this time next year.