Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...

MynaFrett

Hand History #1209767580 (20:47 08/10/2017)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceHennnersSmall blind 30.0030.004910.00devil_tearBig blind 60.0090.005290.00 Your hole cards33   darsum333Fold    MynaFrettRaise 120.00210.004080.00KingHurleyFold    miniraiseFold    HennnersFold    devil_tearCall 60.00270.005230.00Flop  9Q6   devil_tearCheck    MynaFrettCheck    Turn  8   devil_tearCheck    MynaFrettBet 120.00390.003960.00devil_tearRaise 420.00810.004810.00MynaFrettCall 300.001110.003660.00River  5   devil_tearBet 555.001665.004255.00MynaFrettAll-in 3660.005325.000.00devil_tearFold    MynaFrettShow33   MynaFrettWin 2220.00 2220.00MynaFrettReturn 3105.000.005325.00I've been playing at Sky Poker for a year now (grinding the micro-stakes MTT scene most evenings) and I have become obsessed with tracking my own progress and that of others on SharkScope. I have the list of the top 30 MTT money earners on Sky for 2017 saved in my favourites and my aim is to be on that list in 2018 (I don't know if this is ambitious or not for a recreational micro stakes player but it's something tangible to aim for at least)

So... when a player from said list appears at my table I get a little excited... this hand is an example of that. I showed the bluff in an attempt to provoke a reaction and hopefully get some strategy talk/hand analysis out of a player I have massive respect for... but showing the bluff only provoked this reaction from devil_tear "thanks, now I have a note for life" I asked if they had folded J10 and they simply typed "lol" in the chat box : ( 

Anyway, I thought this hand from the early stages of the Sunday Mini Major would be interesting to analyse and it would be great to know what your hole cards were devil_tear...
There are interesting decisions on every street including whether we should even be opening 33 in this spot. Also how ranges are interacting given the pre flop, flop and turn lines from each player, relative range strength on turn, who has most strong/nutted combos vs bluffs/semi-bluffs vs marginal value and ultimately range/hand strength and what is being repped on river... can also consider blockers (or the absence thereof) and how this could, would or should have affected the lines/action from both players... We can also analyse the risk/reward factor... net result was risking tournament life in the early stages with 68bb to win 20bb... Can also discuss showing bluffs/declaring hands and whether there are positives to be gained from this or only negatives and how this affects table image or is perceived to and will this put you in more tricky spots/levelling wars with better players that will ultimately end badly or will it get you paid off in spots that you may not have gotten paid off in otherwise... is it good banter in micro stakes games but inadvisable in stronger fields... etc etc

I hope I don't come across badly in this post or at the tables... it is possible   I enjoy the battle and the banter at the poker tables and I know my chat and propensity for showing/discussing hands rubs some people up the wrong way but that is not my intention. Maybe I will become a more active member of the forum community instead from here on in and keep it zipped at the tables... 

Anyway, I hope this provokes some discussion and not too much harsh criticism... happy to field any and all questions guys  : )

MattBates

Seems like you are a bit obsessed about getting one over on a player you think is better than you. Not really sure what you are repping and as you said you have no blockers. 

With showing bluffs it is up to you, if you feel it helps your game then do it but effectively you are giving free information to someone you consider better than you. 

33 is an open but its not the sort of hand we want to get carried away with post flop once we miss. 

Angmar2626

Could you explain thoughts on calling his turn check-raise?

Kerrnal

33 is not the best of hands to be playing post flop unless of course you hit a set on a dry board otherwise you are flirting with danger. And as  shown in your post above you will often get yourself into tough spots. In regard to  achieving top 30 profit 
(not that I would no about that!) but I would start by improving your overall understanding and strategy which will result in better results and help you become a more profitable player. Big oaks from  little acorns grow is a saying I would go by.

MynaFrett

Hi Matt, Angmar, Kerrnal. Ok so lets just focus on my range/perceived range rather than devil's range for this for now. Well, on the turn when checked to, my range (value/marginal made hands/p+draw/semi-bluffs/draws) is pp's, all sets, AQ, KQ, QJs, Q10s, J10s, 109s, 98s, 76s, all Axh, KhJh, Kh10h, Jh10h, Jh9h, 10h9h, 7h6h and some hands with no/little showdown value that went for delayed c-bet bluff. When facing the check-raise we fold/will be perceived to fold all of our delayed c bet bluffs and maybe some marginal made hands but our continuing range doesn't change that much and given the polarised nature of devils check-raise ALL of our continuing range should be played as calls (could make an argument for trying to get more money in on the turn with J10 perhaps but that would mean also having to raise some of our other holdings in order to be balanced and I just don't think it's a good spot to take a bet/3 bet line on this turn). Facing the river bet when the flush gets there we can now very credibly represent a strong flush and although it would be ideal/preferable to have a broadway heart in our hand to reduce our opponents stronger flush combos, I feel it's just too good a spot and our opponent will have to fold all non flush hands and maybe some weaker flushes too as played. Facing a check on this river I would have potted to represent the same rivered flushes and J10 can also bet fairly confidently for value. Sets of Queens would be a thinner value bet and not sure if I would bet Queens here on this river or not facing a check so not sure if I could credibly rep sets... On non heart rivers and rivers that paired the board I might call facing a bet but would check back when checked to.

Duesenberg

Hi Myna

Good to see you on the forum. Given what a chatterbox you are at the tables it always surprised me you weren't more active in here to be honest!

As you know, I'm not much of a tourney player so any advice specific to the hand above would be better taken from those more versed in the ways of white magic than myself. Still, that won't stop me from making a couple of points :-)

Firstly, against good thinking opponents, I am a big proponent of having balanced ranges across all streets (an appropriate mix of value bets to bluffs). When choosing which combos make up those bluffs, it makes most sense for them to have either good equity to improve (ie strong draws) or good removal/blocker effects (ie holding Ax on possible flush boards, thus blocking the nuts). Your 33 fits neither of those criteria. Your delayed cbet caps your range in this hand and there are not that many combos of value hands in your range that make sense come the turn. Given how dynamic that turn card is though, you can now have picked up a ton of extra draws/semi-bluff hands with which making some moves makes sense. If your are also going to start turning a hand like 33 into a bluff here then you are going to be highly unbalanced and have far too many bluffs to value combos in a spot like this. Whilst it was ballsy and worked out for you in this instance, playing such an unbalanced range will get you in a lot of trouble vs good players over the long run.

Secondly, 99% of the time, giving your opponent free information by showing your hand when you don't have to is not a good idea. Having played a fair bit of cash with you, you have very generously given me more information about your play style than I should rightly have by revealing hands. As a result of this extra info I have made some specific adjustments vs you in certain spots that I otherwise would not have made (whether or not those adjustments were profitable or not is another matter of course!). Whilst this was only on 10nl and mostly in the name of good banter, in tougher games where edges are smaller, this is certainly a habit you will want to break.

Good luck out there :-)

P.S. Good thread title!

bearlyther

I think his river sizing looks like a blocker bet that doesnt want to get raised he would bet bigger with his nut combos imo. So i like your river jam.

MynaFrett

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

Hi Myna Good to see you on the forum. Given what a chatterbox you are at the tables it always surprised me you weren't more active in here to be honest! As you know, I'm not much of a tourney player so any advice specific to the hand above would be better taken from those more versed in the ways of white magic than myself. Still, that won't stop me from making a couple of points :-) Firstly, against good thinking opponents, I am a big proponent of having balanced ranges across all streets (an appropriate mix of value bets to bluffs). When choosing which combos make up those bluffs, it makes most sense for them to have either good equity to improve (ie strong draws) or good removal/blocker effects (ie holding Ax on possible flush boards, thus blocking the nuts). Your 33 fits neither of those criteria. Your delayed cbet caps your range in this hand and there are not that many combos of value hands in your range that make sense come the turn. Given how dynamic that turn card is though, you can now have picked up a ton of extra draws/semi-bluff hands with which making some moves makes sense. If your are also going to start turning a hand like 33 into a bluff here then you are going to be highly unbalanced and have far too many bluffs to value combos in a spot like this. Whilst it was ballsy and worked out for you in this instance, playing such an unbalanced range will get you in a lot of trouble vs good players over the long run. Secondly, 99% of the time, giving your opponent free information by showing your hand when you don't have to is not a good idea. Having played a fair bit of cash with you, you have very generously given me more information about your play style than I should rightly have by revealing hands. As a result of this extra info I have made some specific adjustments vs you in certain spots that I otherwise would not have made (whether or not those adjustments were profitable or not is another matter of course!). Whilst this was only on 10nl and mostly in the name of good banter, in tougher games where edges are smaller, this is certainly a habit you will want to break. Good luck out there :-) P.S. Good thread title!

Dues mah man! : )

Look the hand selection is not Doug Polk approved hence the title ; ) And Matt Bates alluded to the fact that I seem obsessed with trying to outplay better players... so that's the jump off point for the hand.

What is interesting though is the point you made about my turn bet capping my range- presumably you mean my flop check and sizing on turn too rather than just the fact that I bet turn- this line doesn't cap my range at all BUT good thinking players think it does so... what does this do to their turn check-raise bluff barrell river frequencies?... You've taken this line against me yourself as a bluff/semi-bluff at 10nl and I've exploited the obvious exploit by floating and calling river light with my "capped range". I am balanced in this turn spot for this very reason, I will be capped sometimes, I will have air, I will have sets and overpairs and straights, I don't auto-c bet my entire range strong/weak/middling like a lot of tournament players still do on all flops. So, considering how much air this now puts in devil_tears range as well as draws (their range now looks like air, sets, straights and flush draws and no marginal value) we might even be ahead on the turn with 33. When devil_tear chooses this sizing on the river my read was that they now probably did have the value part of the range but not nutted combos on this river. So hands like sets that probably should only be check-decides now anyway (unless devil_tear thinks I might hero with AA or KK with heart but this would be thin, ambitious) and hands like the made straights on turn, so 33 likely has no showdown now and it's jam or fold time.

I am totally with you on everything else though buddy, I am officially done with showing hands and talking about hands at the tables... especially with sharks like you around : )
Posted by Duesenberg

MynaFrett

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

I think his river sizing looks like a blocker bet that doesnt want to get raised he would bet bigger with his nut combos imo. So i like your river jam.
Posted by bearlyther

Good man Bearly ; )

MynaFrett

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

33 is not the best of hands to be playing post flop unless of course you hit a set on a dry board otherwise you are flirting with danger. And as  shown in your post above you will often get yourself into tough spots. In regard to  achieving top 30 profit  (not that I would no about that!) but I would start by improving your overall understanding and strategy which will result in better results and help you become a more profitable player. Big oaks from  little acorns grow is a saying I would go by.
Posted by Kerrnal

I agree with this Kerrnal. I am very much looking to improve all the time. I devour Youtube and Twitch poker content. This is probably preaching to the choir here, but for anyone who isn't so familiar with this stuff I strongly recommend guys like Doug Polk, Tonkaaap and Lex Veldhuis. There are also some great hand history reviews of Charlie Carrell's big tournament scores and some of his big high stakes cash sessions (one for you Dues) on Gripsed Youtube channel. Owing to this and playing most nights I would say that my baseline understanding of the game is decent and my understanding/implementation of current strategy is ok... but with obvious leaks and missapplying some concepts/not understanding them fully at times. Please don't judge me on this hand : ) If I was making plays like this even semi regularly (and choosing hands like this to do it with) I would very much be a losing player.

As for the top 30 thing... I also thought it would be pie in the Sky- the top 30 players across the whole site?!... but the players ranked 30th and slightly above currently only have about £8000 profit from scheduled MTT this year, so it's anything but a huge target to be honest. Admittedly I am a few thousand short of this mark but that is with playing £1, £2 and £5 games prodominantly and very few majors. Even if I continued as I am this year (playing Micro stakes with an ROI of ~40%) I might even get close to it if I just upped my volume. If I continue to improve, up my volume AND play the nightly £33 tournaments (and run good...) I think I have a shot.

Anyway, it's not the be-all-end-all, it was just something to aim for as a target/goal-driven person. My first target was to practice good bank roll management, play 2000 games and see if I was profitable, had good average ROI and good total ROI. That has been achieved so seems reasonable to set the bar a little higher...

As this is being written I am in the middle of a nasty little downswing... I hope I can turn it round or all this chat is gonna look pretty stupid pretty quickly    /\

FeelGroggy

Hand looks like fancy play syndrome to me, think your trying too hard. Think you have seen him on your list and tried to own him. Turn is a trivial check back for me, think bet calling is just burning money. You're already capped here by checking back flop, so bet calling in a spot where he is likely value heavy isn't a good strategy.

You are extremely fortunate to find such a good river. Think his bare draws. fds etc, are going to opt to lead turn frequently as opposed to check raise, so this caps him when he check raises turn. And it is perfectly reasonably for you to delay cbet with a flush draw and peel the reraise. So raising here is very believable as value imo, and think he is bet folding at a super high frequency. I really like river as played, but not sure if you stumbled there and kind of 'went for it' and patted yourself on the back when it worked. Turn play is a disaster though imo. I think blockers aren't super important in this river spot seeing as he almost never plays turn as a check raise with a fd. Actually having 33 probably works out as a really good bluff, cos you dont block any of his vb folds (straights, sets gone thin, etc) Turn play is for sure burning money though. 

Would recommend not going after the 'top 30 players' for the sake of it. Seems like this hand has a lot of ego behind it, especially with the showing hole cards etc (we've all been there and done it, I'm not trying to insult you just trying to give advice). Intentionally tangling with the better players and just trying to force a pot your way is not the best strategy to adopt if your purely trying to make money from the game.  They are up x amount for a reason, because they play their hands better than most players on the site. There is more money in 'going after' weaker players, because they are going to play their hands worse, therefore you make more money. That is not to say don't bluff regs, etc, but don't try as hard as you did here. GL at the tables

MynaFrett

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

Hand looks like fancy play syndrome to me, think your trying too hard. Think you have seen him on your list and tried to own him. Turn is a trivial check back for me, think bet calling is just burning money. You're already capped here by checking back flop, so bet calling in a spot where he is likely value heavy isn't a good strategy. You are extremely fortunate to find such a good river. Think his bare draws. fds etc, are going to opt to lead turn frequently as opposed to check raise, so this caps him when he check raises turn. And it is perfectly reasonably for you to delay cbet with a flush draw and peel the reraise. So raising here is very believable as value imo, and think he is bet folding at a super high frequency. I really like river as played, but not sure if you stumbled there and kind of 'went for it' and patted yourself on the back when it worked. Turn play is a disaster though imo. I think blockers aren't super important in this river spot seeing as he almost never plays turn as a check raise with a fd. Actually having 33 probably works out as a really good bluff, cos you dont block any of his vb folds (straights, sets gone thin, etc) Turn play is for sure burning money though.  Would recommend not going after the 'top 30 players' for the sake of it. Seems like this hand has a lot of ego behind it, especially with the showing hole cards etc (we've all been there and done it, I'm not trying to insult you just trying to give advice). Intentionally tangling with the better players and just trying to force a pot your way is not the best strategy to adopt if your purely trying to make money from the game.  They are up x amount for a reason, because they play their hands better than most players on the site. There is more money in 'going after' weaker players, because they are going to play their hands worse, therefore you make more money. That is not to say don't bluff regs, etc, but don't try as hard as you did here. GL at the tables
Posted by FeelGroggy

Hi FeelGroggy

Completely agree with everything you've said here (apart from being capped by checking back flop but I won't get into that again) your analysis is spot on. 

I think I may have made a rod for my own back... I said that I get a bit excited when one of the better players shows up at my table and I might be guilty of trying to talk a bit of strategy with them and maybe overplaying a hand in pots with them very occassionally or trying to get their opinion on how a hand was played etc. Matt Bates said I seem obsessed with trying to outplay better players and I quoted this in a subsequent post but this isn't really the case. I'm not going out of my way to get involved with the better players- I play micro stakes so I'm well aware that most of my chips aren't being accumulated from frequently getting involved with the better players. I regularly play with wacko, loololollo and bearlyther and many other better players than me at my stakes and don't have a single hand history with any of them where I tried to outplay them for the sake of outplaying them. To be honest this is the only example of a random-turn-spew-made-good-by-river hand I have from my tournaments. I have plenty from when I'm messing around at 4 & 10nl at stupid-o'clock with Duesenberg though : ) and it's mostly just for the banter... I'm actually a nit who loves to find excuses to fold, I'm not doing this in my tournaments on the regular, it was a one (maybe two) time thing I swear! : )

I'm taking all the criticism on board (and on the chin). I think this was a silly post from the outset but I think it's intention has been misinterpreted a bit. At the end of the day it was a badly played hand which turned into an opportunity to run a bluff on a fortunate river against a good player and the title of the post acknowledes this.

I am really happy with some of the analysis from some very good players that has come out of it though, some differing opinions on whether my check-flop-bet-turn line caps my range and the strength of his turn check-raise range vs turn lead range etc and that sort of stuff was the intention so that's cool : )

Tikay10

Hi Myna,

Don't think I've enjoyed a strategy thread as much as this one in many a year, well done to you for the manner in which you wrote it, & the way you handled the responses - including a good dose of constructive criticism of your play - & also to all those who responded so well, including some of the best players on Sky Poker.

So often, we see players putting up a hand for discussion, & then rejecting all suggestions which do not agree with the thoughts of the OP. We used to have a player who frequently folded KK pre in SNG's "because the villain might have aces", & when others tried to help him, would just say "no, I was correct, it works for me".
 
I'm not qualified to comment on the play of the hand - it's all way above my level of thinking (we all know elderly players are all nits & can't run with the kids these days), though I think I'm as able as any to understand & discuss the psychology of playing poker, & how ego can & does cost us money. The best players I know are like good pickpockets - they do it so quietly, & without fuss, that we don't realise we've had our leg lifted until we get back home. Controlling our ego is a huge part of excelling at poker.
 
Fabulous thread, post more. And well done to the Big Boys who took so much time to respond without malice.
 
Incidentally, to see a reply which is the compete opposite to the ones on here, go to a recent thread in the Cash Strategy Board & see how one guy offers no advice, but just digs out the OP with a high-handed sarcy remark. That's the sort of response which puts players off from posting. The replies on this thread will surely do the very opposite.        

rancid

The point is if you have 33 and then include your whole range your going to be bluffing too much.

More importantly what are you doing with your range to be checking flop and betting turn.

What do we get to turn with?

Like you said yourself, you went into the hand with the sole reason to try and win the hand.

So you thought i will rep and hope he doesn't have it.

fair play

MynaFrett

Wow what did I start here? : ) This is simultaneously nerve shredding and exciting!

"...I think I'm as able as any to understand & discuss the psychology of playing poker, & how ego can & does cost us money. The best players I know are like good pickpockets - they do it so quietly, & without fuss, that we don't realise we've had our leg lifted until we get back home. Controlling our ego is a huge part of excelling at poker..."

This is absolutely fantastic Tikay. I have written this on a notepad I keep by my computer. It's humbling and eye opening and quite beautiful actually. I do approach the game as more of a battle than a chess match and I do think some missplaced/ill advised bravado permeates my game as a result of this mindset... but I am seeing the error of my ways and am actively addressing this. Rather than listening to aggressive punk rock and trying to obliterate my foes at the table ; ) I'm going to take a more serene and cerebral approach to the game and ditch the ego/bravado and all the nonsense associated with that and I'm sure this will lead me to decision making and play based on solid, winning strategy and not one-upmanship.

I have also been impressed that the best players on the site have contributed to the debate but I would have been upset if they had done so with "malice" as I don't think anything in this thread could or should provoke malice and certainly not from seasoned veterans of the game who have been there and done it. A shake of the head and a rolling of the eyes and a little ticking off sure : )

MynaFrett

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

The point is if you have 33 and then include your whole range your going to be bluffing too much. More importantly what are you doing with your range to be checking flop and betting turn. What do we get to turn with? Like you said yourself, you went into the hand with the sole reason to try and win the hand. So you thought i will rep and hope he doesn't have it. fair play
Posted by rancid

Hi rancid. This post transitions nicely into some of the things that arise from the hand that I thought were more interesting to debate than the fact I ran a dumb bluff and showed up with 33 : )  ie. 1) playing HU pots with the BB in single min raised pots 2) sometimes mixing in checks with very strong/strong hands/draws and over pairs (even on relatively "co-ordinated flops" where your opponent will continue a lot facing a c bet with a decent portion of their defending range anyway) and 3) facing turn leads or check-raises into your "capped range" having checked flop as pre flop raiser to disguise your range and protect the weaker parts of your checking range and your marginal made hands.

rancid

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark... : Hi rancid. This post transitions nicely into some of the things that arise from the hand that I thought were more interesting to debate than the fact I ran a dumb bluff and showed up with 33 : ) 

1) playing HU pots with the BB in single min raised pots 

2) sometimes mixing in checks with very strong/strong hands/draws and over pairs (even on relatively "co-ordinated flops" where your opponent will continue a lot facing a c bet with a decent portion of their defending range anyway)

3) facing turn leads or check-raises into your "capped range" having checked flop as pre flop raiser to disguise your range and protect the weaker parts of your checking range and your marginal made hands.
Posted by MynaFrett

So if you know it was a just a dumb bluff, what is there to debate?

You mention a lot of things.

Playing single raised pots in position is pretty straight forward.

Yes we should think about what we put in our checking range and our betting range.

But we don't want to be weakning our checking range too much otherwise we end up bluffing too much on turn.

What we are doing with J10o or 76hh or KQ or A9

Plus we can only play one street at a time. So KQ gonna not be the same as 76hh or J10o as we play down the streets.

I just can't see how we could make this work.

We can't assume opponent is going to be bluffing enough on turn or even leading into us with a range we beat.

MynaFrett

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark... : So if you know it was a just a dumb bluff, what is there to debate? You mention a lot of things. Playing single raised pots in position is pretty straight forward. Yes we should think about what we put in our checking range and our betting range. But we don't want to be weakning our checking range too much otherwise we end up bluffing too much on turn. What we are doing with J10o or 76hh or KQ or A9 Plus we can only play one street at a time. So KQ gonna not be the same as 76hh or J10o as we play down the streets. I just can't see how we could make this work. We can't assume opponent is going to be bluffing enough on turn or even leading into us with a range we beat.
Posted by rancid

You misunderstand me rancid... forget this hand specifically and the 33 : )

rancid

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark... : You misunderstand me rancid... forget this hand specifically and the 33 : )
Posted by MynaFrett

Ok no problem I thought you wanted to debate your checking range on flop.

devil_tear

Hey Myna

I was going to post a few days ago but was busy. FeelGroggy and Matt basically summed up my thoughts.

Against them players I check call this river maybe 80% of the time. Not knowing you, and being in the mini I opted for an expoititative bet/fold. And you got me

It kinda reminds me early on in poker I was against Moorman in a big hand, and I tried to "show my skills" as it were and I won the hand risking everything, but looking back it was a disaster.

I think telling you my hand wont help you very much. Boost your ego maybe. The best players are creative and go out on a limb, its just knowing when to do it, and when to look for a better spot.

One good thing that my come of this is ppl will think im a pushover and bluff me more.

Goodluck on your quest!

MynaFrett

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark...:

In Response to Re: Button-clicking Spew-monkey vs Legit Shark... : Ok no problem I thought you wanted to debate your checking range on flop.
Posted by rancid

Well did go over this a bit already but maybe not thoroughly and it does make for some interesting river decisions when we get to river in the exact same way with different parts of our range. So for this exercise lets ignore the pro's and con's for c betting vs not c betting this flop in this HU min raised pot vs BB with our entire range and just accept that we checked flop bet-called turn and arrive at this river facing this bet. Flop is Qh9s6d turn is 8h river is 5h

So, lets say I/we get to river as played with sets- QQQ, 999, 888, 666. Can any of our sets call? Can all of them call? Are they split between calls and folds? Would we consider turning any of these into bluff shoves on river?

Lets say we get there as played with AA/KK. Are these trivial folds? Can we ever call? Can we call when we have a heart? Should we bluff shove? Should we bluff shove only when we have a heart?

Lets say we get there with JJ-22. Just trivial folds, "hero" calls or any bluff shoves?

Lets say we get there with AQ,KQ,QJs,Q10s and Q9s (loose open, debatable)- are any of these calls? Are blocker effects relevant? Should we consider bluff shoving with any of the these combo's?

Then there's all our made flushes on river- AhKh, AhJh, Ah10h, Ah9h, Ah7h, Ah4h, Ah3h, Ah2h, KhJh, Kh10h, Kh9h (loose open, debatable) Jh10h, 10h9h, 9h7h (loose, debatable) 7h6h, 4h3h (very loose, very debatable)
Are we shoving all of our flushes? Or are we just calling with some of them?