How do I stop this happening

Enut

Maybe I'm just on a really bad run but when I flop like this I just suspect I am doomed.

How do I play this to maximize returns?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
FUNKYB31	Small blind		75.00	75.00	8980.00
kav83	Big blind		150.00	225.00	6445.00
	Your hole cards	7 7
rajb18	Call		150.00	375.00	4805.00
Enut	Call		150.00	525.00	4835.00
SKIPMAN	Call		150.00	675.00	3440.00
bonzo1199	Fold
FUNKYB31	Call		75.00	750.00	8905.00
kav83	Check
Flop
		3 2 7
FUNKYB31	Check
kav83	Bet		150.00	900.00	6295.00
rajb18	Fold
Enut	Raise		675.00	1575.00	4160.00
SKIPMAN	Fold
FUNKYB31	Fold
kav83	Call		525.00	2100.00	5770.00
Turn
		J
kav83	Check
Enut	Bet		1575.00	3675.00	2585.00
kav83	Call		1575.00	5250.00	4195.00
River
		4
kav83	All-in		4195.00	9445.00	0.00
Enut	All-in		2585.00	12030.00	0.00
kav83	Unmatched bet		1610.00	10420.00	1610.00
kav83	Show	10 K
Enut	Show	7 7
kav83	Win	Flush to the King	10420.00		12030.00

Enut

And this one, obviously fold pre, but as played are you calling the all in?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Enut	Small blind		20.00	20.00	2380.00
Flipper55	Big blind		40.00	60.00	1768.75
	Your hole cards	4 10
BigElco	Fold
BESTBITTER	Call		40.00	100.00	1650.00
Robopot	Fold
Enut	Call		20.00	120.00	2360.00
Flipper55	Check
Flop
		8 10 9
Enut	Check
Flipper55	Check
BESTBITTER	Bet		40.00	160.00	1610.00
Enut	Raise		240.00	400.00	2120.00
Flipper55	Fold
BESTBITTER	All-in		1610.00	2010.00	0.00
Enut	Call		1410.00	3420.00	710.00
Enut	Show	4 10
BESTBITTER	Show	Q J
Turn
		6
River
		7
BESTBITTER	Win	Straight to the Queen	3420.00		3420.00

Angmar2626

I would isolate pre in hand one with 77. It has a lot of raw equity but relatively low equity realisation multiway (unless you flop a set). Taking the initiative in hands will win you more pots in general also.

NOSTRI

You lost both of these hands because you limped. Why would you ever limp a pocket pair?

I would iso to 600, bet 2/3 on flop, leaving roughly a PSB on turn. If KTs makes it here, you're giving them around 33% and they only have 16% equity so should fold. Even if they're not thinking about pot odds, you're still forcing them to contemplate putting their entire stack in with K-high, which is much scarier than betting half pot all the way and giving them a cheap draw.

Allan23

Tbf it’s an overlimp @NOSTRI and don’t think it’s the worst play in the world off 30bbs. Would look at the lineup behind here and either be limping or as @Angmar2626 says isoing. Wouldn’t be raising 44,55, maybe 66 so 77 isn’t too much different from them in terms of probability.

Post flop on the 77 is just unlucky imo. When flopping top set on a 732 board you can rarely do much wrong, apart from folding. Sometimes he’ll get there with his flush draw, sometimes he won’t. Once he leads out small I’d raise to try get spr roughly 1:1 so jamming turn is possible

NOSTRI

I'm pretty happy iso-raising just about any pocket pair from any position against obviously weak players with +30bb. Pairs are hardly ever going to hold up postflop against a full table of limpers and quite often you just have to fold. When you iso, they'll usually fold and donate a bb or call and snap-fold to a cbet when they miss the board, which they almost always will. It also lets you represent a stronger hand and make them fold better hands.

I'm sure it wouldn't work as well at higher stakes but I think it works very well against the low stakes field and I'm positive it's more profitable than limping behind and hoping to hit a set. I'll do this constantly against people until they limp-3b me or show up with a strong hand and it almost always works.

Essexphil

On that 1st hand, you could play it in various ways.
You go bust in pretty much all of them. Just part of the game.

madprof

First hand, I’m probably shoving post turn card, almost hoping he’s Hit the Jack or two paired the board....your 3*bet on the turn wouldn’t be enough for me to not call and see the river with 4 spades....maybe a shove would put me off?

Itsover4u

NOSTRI said:

You lost both of these hands because you limped. Why would you ever limp a pocket pair?

I would iso to 600, bet 2/3 on flop, leaving roughly a PSB on turn. If KTs makes it here, you're giving them around 33% and they only have 16% equity so should fold. Even if they're not thinking about pot odds, you're still forcing them to contemplate putting their entire stack in with K-high, which is much scarier than betting half pot all the way and giving them a cheap draw.

Agree we iso but no need to go beyond 3x at 30bb stack depth.

Why would we bet 2/3 pot on this board? 66% is way to much. We have the nuts and we want to be betting 25 -33% with our range. We want to induce calls and some will read it as weakness (as it can be sometimes) and start pummeling into us.

lets say we have kqs we still fold out all his k10s qj etc that might flat but if he has a ak aq any pair he will call along.

On the turn we size up irrespective as we can narrow his range at this point - once he calls he will generally have a pair or a fd and we want to size up to get him to put his stack in hopefully.

If he flats the river is meh and when he jams it is so rarely a bluff but you have to be a pretty top level player to fold

NOSTRI

Itsover4u said:

Agree we iso but no need to go beyond 3x at 30bb stack depth.

I went 4x because I feel like 3x is gets too many cold calls behind at low stakes, which I assume this hand is from, especially when the blinds are 40bb+.

I agree regarding the flop sizing.

Enut

Thanks for your replies all.

What do we do if we raise pre and then potentially get reraised, we just have to fold there as we no longer get odds to hit our set and are often behind pre. Alternatively if we raise pre and get at least one caller we are almost always facing an overcard or more likely overcards on the flop and then have to fold the flop (assuming we don't hit a set). My view was to try and see the flop as cheaply as possible in order to set mine from such an early position. If I limp and someone raised pre I probably still have the odds to set mine.

@Itsover4u and @NOSTRI, surely betting 25% on a two spade board is just pricing in the flush draw rather than making him pay a decent amount for it, in fact a min raise would have been 33%? Although I can see how it potentially saves me in this case, as the river becomes a price I can probably get away with. By the way the river was a tilt call as even at over 3 to 1, I know I am beat almost all the time there.

Anyone any comments on the second hand?

And sorry should have said both were from £5.50 Bounty hunters I think.

Essexphil

Enut said:

Thanks for your replies all.

What do we do if we raise pre and then potentially get reraised, we just have to fold there as we no longer get odds to hit our set and are often behind pre. Alternatively if we raise pre and get at least one caller we are almost always facing an overcard or more likely overcards on the flop and then have to fold the flop (assuming we don't hit a set). My view was to try and see the flop as cheaply as possible in order to set mine from such an early position. If I limp and someone raised pre I probably still have the odds to set mine.

@Itsover4u and @NOSTRI, surely betting 25% on a two spade board is just pricing in the flush draw rather than making him pay a decent amount for it, in fact a min raise would have been 33%? Although I can see how it potentially saves me in this case, as the river becomes a price I can probably get away with. By the way the river was a tilt call as even at over 3 to 1, I know I am beat almost all the time there.

Anyone any comments on the second hand?

And sorry should have said both were from £5.50 Bounty hunters I think.

Would play 1st hand similar to you, for the exact same reasons you give.

2nd hand? Folding pre is optimal. not least to avoid this sort of spot.
As played, you have to call there.

madprof

Top pair, no kicker and he shoves? Fold for me

madprof

Sorry..just seen 4 spades...call then!

FeelGroggy

Enut said:

Thanks for your replies all.

Alternatively if we raise pre and get at least one caller we are almost always facing an overcard or more likely overcards on the flop and then have to fold the flop (assuming we don't hit a set).

You need to put yourself into potentially uncomfortable postflop situations when you are playing good poker. A lot of the edge of poker is consistently playing these spots better than your opponents. The more you play these spots postflop the better you'll get at them. In the exact hand over-limping is also fine but it seems like this mentality is just gonna lead you to making far too many passive and weak plays preflop and justifying it because you might not get the flop you want.

FeelGroggy

Poker is not about charging your opponents the maximum to draw to their hand every time there's a potential draw on the board and you have the nuts, its about selecting a certain bet size that achieves a lot with the range of hands you have. Glancing through the thread there seems to be a lot of results orientated thinking because the opponent got there this time. In reality you've got your opponent to call a 3/4 pot size bet on the turn with 7 outs (2 of his flush outs give you a full house). He is also going to give you the rest of his stack the times he hits a flush and you hit a boat (2) he hits a king (3) or a ten (3) on the river and maybe he bluffs now and again when he misses. This is a big win for you, even if this time you got unlucky.

FeelGroggy

The T4s hand is a good example of inflating the pot without a plan. Nothing can ever be too terrible because you have equity vs anything. But when all the chips do go in on the flop your going to be behind basically every time. Also when you get called you don't have an easy time on any turn that doesn't bring you the flush or pair one of your hole cards, and you've made the pot much bigger than its needed to be. There's nothing wrong with leading out for value on the flop and calling a raise, or even check calling the flop and continuing the turn on any card in the deck.

Allan23

@FeelGroggy would you be overlimping SB with 104 suited here? I would be with 2 probably weaker players involved, but not sure what is optimal. I’d probably be folding 103s and 102s

Enut

'You need to put yourself into potentially uncomfortable postflop situations when you are playing good poker. A lot of the edge of poker is consistently playing these spots better than your opponents. The more you play these spots postflop the better you'll get at them. In the exact hand over-limping is also fine but it seems like this mentality is just gonna lead you to making far too many passive and weak plays preflop and justifying it because you might not get the flop you want.

Thanks @FeelGroggy for replying. Interesting comment about putting yourself into potentially uncomfortable spots post flops, I thought you tried to do that to your opponent! I do bow however to your better understanding of the game.

FWIW I don't tend to be a serial limper, I just happened to post two hands where I had.
The 104s hand just shows how flipping 20 chips into a 100 chips pot can seem like good value.... then get you crucified later in the pot, especially when I made it play out like it did. I fold 104 off all day long there btw.

FeelGroggy

Allan23 said:

@FeelGroggy would you be overlimping SB with 104 suited here? I would be with 2 probably weaker players involved, but not sure what is optimal. I’d probably be folding 103s and 102s

You can definitely get away with playing a wider range than you should vs weaker, more passive players. You could probably turn it into a profitable hand to call if you play it alright postflop but not so much that folding is a gonna be a mistake.

FeelGroggy

Enut said:

'You need to put yourself into potentially uncomfortable postflop situations when you are playing good poker. A lot of the edge of poker is consistently playing these spots better than your opponents. The more you play these spots postflop the better you'll get at them. In the exact hand over-limping is also fine but it seems like this mentality is just gonna lead you to making far too many passive and weak plays preflop and justifying it because you might not get the flop you want.

Thanks @FeelGroggy for replying. Interesting comment about putting yourself into potentially uncomfortable spots post flops, I thought you tried to do that to your opponent! I do bow however to your better understanding of the game.

FWIW I don't tend to be a serial limper, I just happened to post two hands where I had.
The 104s hand just shows how flipping 20 chips into a 100 chips pot can seem like good value.... then get you crucified later in the pot, especially when I made it play out like it did. I fold 104 off all day long there btw.



Think about the players you don't want to see on your tables. It's the aggressive regulars like MattBates and Lool who can seem relentless with their betting who put you in a lot of tough spots and seem to know what you have. These players are getting dealt the same distribution of starting cards as everyone else, they are just opting to play theirs more aggressively. The reality of playing this type of strategy is your going to get to flops with a lot of high cards and 3rd and 2nd pairs. These guys have done it so much that the situations aren't uncomfortable to them anymore but they are still uncomfortable for their opponents. Looking at their graphs, it seems like they do okay playing this way...