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That,would be,...know.in the trade, as,a difference of opinion, ...there,is,No,absolute,right..or..wrong..play with your, Poker Heart.Poker Instinct.based more , observing..the actual players..yep.them.the actual players...in your game..come on Guv.dare you..to state...your opinion?
This was a serious thread with many great contributions, we were all learning something, then you poll up & trash the thread completely. The OP must wonder what happened to his thread.
Stay off these serious threads please unless you can add to the debate sensibly and do so coherently.
For me Close between a open and a open jam can go either way. Generally look at comp structure, ICM factors, villain types there stack sizes and positions before making a decision.... Then I normally lose the hand
Surely open shove is only move with 10s and 16bb. If we open 2, 2.2x and get 3b we 4b shove.
If we open and get couple of callers. Were in a world of pain if dont hit set imo
No, no, no. A raise here would be at least 3x
Phil I don’t understand the reasoning behind this
Previous betting patterns can become a consideration here. So if your last 20 raises were all min-raises, then 3x (as Matt said) looks super-strong. Previous bet sizing is ignored for this purpose.
If you 2x (12.5% of your stack), then, due both to EV and bounties, a whole bunch of hands are priced in to call. You know, 55, A8s, and almost any 2 from the BB.
If you 3x (18.75%), if people are playing optimally loads of hands now should fold. But they don't. Because people forget that calling is based on effective stacks (yours), not theirs. And people overplay small pairs pre-flop. And you enable a whole host of hands to play sub-optimally. Against you. Which is kind of the object of playing poker.
I think being 6/6 I lean more towards a open jam WP btw
I hear what you say. But that is the fascinating part of the stack sizes in the OP.
If you shove, you get 5 folds. A lot. Consequently, you have just had a premium hand. And are still 6/6. Because your stack size has increased by less than 10%.
Whereas if you took it down on the flop, you may well gain 4.5BB. and now be in 4th.
I am not saying that a shove is wrong. I am just saying that shove and raise are both entirely arguable here.
Comments
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This was a serious thread with many great contributions, we were all learning something, then you poll up & trash the thread completely. The OP must wonder what happened to his thread.
Stay off these serious threads please unless you can add to the debate sensibly and do so coherently.
I don’t understand the reasoning behind this
If you 2x (12.5% of your stack), then, due both to EV and bounties, a whole bunch of hands are priced in to call. You know, 55, A8s, and almost any 2 from the BB.
If you 3x (18.75%), if people are playing optimally loads of hands now should fold. But they don't. Because people forget that calling is based on effective stacks (yours), not theirs. And people overplay small pairs pre-flop. And you enable a whole host of hands to play sub-optimally. Against you. Which is kind of the object of playing poker.
If you shove, you get 5 folds. A lot. Consequently, you have just had a premium hand. And are still 6/6. Because your stack size has increased by less than 10%.
Whereas if you took it down on the flop, you may well gain 4.5BB. and now be in 4th.
I am not saying that a shove is wrong. I am just saying that shove and raise are both entirely arguable here.
Think being UTG I'd lean more towards the jam but it's close. If the table has some players who like to chase bounties then stick it in pre.
Things like how long before the blinds go up might also influence the decision.
No need whatsoever to open for a 3x.