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Negligence, And Other Shortcomings Of The NHS.

HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
edited August 2020 in The Rail
NHS paid record compensation of more than 1.4billion for negligence last year - almost double the amount paid five years ago




The £1.4billion figure is revealed in the annual report and accounts of NHS Resolution. NHS Resolution chairman Ian Dilks admitted the cost of clinical negligence is 'the eliphant in the room'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html
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    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    Eliphant?
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    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    edited August 2020
    Another elephant in the room is how a litigious society influences sub-optimal practices to cover one’s back and protect them from the hindsight bias.
    ”decision makers who expect to have their decisions scrutinised with hindsight are driven to bureaucratic solutions - and to an extreme reluctance to take risks. As malpractice legislation became more common, physicians changed their procedures in multiple ways: ordered more tests, referred more cases to specialists, applied conventional treatments even when they were unlikely to help. These actions protected the physicians more than they benefited the patients, creating the potential for conflicts of interest.”
    Daniel Kahneman, Thinking Fast and Slow

    Likely also to be a contributor to increased waiting lists and times, as well as the creation of lines and lines of middle-management jobs, all of which have their own costs.

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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    bbMike said:

    Another elephant in the room is how a litigious society influences sub-optimal practices to cover one’s back and protect them from the hindsight bias.

    ”decision makers who expect to have their decisions scrutinised with hindsight are driven to bureaucratic solutions - and to an extreme reluctance to take risks. As malpractice legislation became more common, physicians changed their procedures in multiple ways: ordered more tests, referred more cases to specialists, applied conventional treatments even when they were unlikely to help. These actions protected the physicians more than they benefited the patients, creating the potential for conflicts of interest.”
    Daniel Kahneman, Thinking Fast and Slow

    Likely also to be a contributor to increased waiting lists and times, as well as the creation of lines and lines of middle-management jobs, all of which have their own costs.



    Do you think that they are settling unwarranted claims then?
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    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    Nope. Don’t believe I’ve said that. The inference is that without the bureaucratic solutions they may in fact need to pay more in negligence claims. But striking a balance between negligence and policies/processes that deliver worse outcomes for patients and the expense side of the P&L doesn’t appear to feature here.

    It is likely that there are more claims because there are firms out there that try to find such claims, which will have the impact of further bolstering the bureaucratic nature of the processes and making them more inefficient.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    bbMike said:

    Nope. Don’t believe I’ve said that. The inference is that without the bureaucratic solutions they may in fact need to pay more in negligence claims. But striking a balance between negligence and policies/processes that deliver worse outcomes for patients and the expense side of the P&L doesn’t appear to feature here.

    It is likely that there are more claims because there are firms out there that try to find such claims, which will have the impact of further bolstering the bureaucratic nature of the processes and making them more inefficient.

    This is a link to the longer article.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8608351/NHS-paid-1-4billion-negligence-year-double-paid-five-years-ago.html
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    Nope. Don’t believe I’ve said that. The inference is that without the bureaucratic solutions they may in fact need to pay more in negligence claims. But striking a balance between negligence and policies/processes that deliver worse outcomes for patients and the expense side of the P&L doesn’t appear to feature here.

    It is likely that there are more claims because there are firms out there that try to find such claims, which will have the impact of further bolstering the bureaucratic nature of the processes and making them more inefficient.

    This is a link to the longer article.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8608351/NHS-paid-1-4billion-negligence-year-double-paid-five-years-ago.html
    The fact that damages were paid out in over 7,500 cases seems very high.

    In addition to this I recently watched a BBC documentary regarding NHS fraud.

    NHS Fraud Squad: Catching the crooks stealing £1.3 billion from the system



    Every year, close to £1.3 billion is defrauded from the NHS. It is a shocking attack on an organisation that needs every penny for patient care. What may surprise those who don’t know about the scale of fraud against the health service is how much of that money is stolen by insiders....

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/nhs-fraud-squad-catching-medical-insiders-stealing-13-billion/


    Drug wastage is costing the NHS millions

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13042794


    Colluding drug firms 'cost the NHS millions of pounds'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48377232

    Missed hospital appointments in Kent is costing the NHS £13m
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00mjynp

    'Too many children' have tonsils removed unnecessarily

    Based on these findings, the researchers estimate that 32,500 of the 37,000 child tonsillectomies in 2016-2017 in the UK were unnecessary, costing the NHS £36.9m.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46095462

    Shropshire baby deaths: NHS trust was paid £1m for good care

    An interim report into what has become the largest inquiry into maternity care in the history of the NHS, leaked last month, found a toxic culture had contributed to the avoidable deaths of babies and mothers as well as dozens of instances of significant harm.

    An NHS trust at the centre of England's largest inquiry into baby deaths was paid almost £1m for providing good maternity care, the BBC has learned.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-50877640

    'Lessons learned' over £24m Altrincham health hub failings
    Health bosses have planned an overhaul of leadership following to "catastrophic" failings at a £24m health hub in Greater Manchester.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-48450554


    Missed GP appointments 'cost NHS England £216m'

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46732626


    Dental patients' A&E visits 'cost NHS up to £18m a year'


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38542033


    Ms Frith said the £1.25bn was probably on the conservative side - previous estimates by experts have put it even higher.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41824180


    NHS 'wasting millions on supplies'
    To give a couple of examples:

    A few hospital trusts were paying £9.60 for 100 clinical waste bags while others were paying £18.
    And while one paid just 34p per face mask, a few were prepared to shell out £1.22 each.
    Perhaps most worryingly, one trust was paying just over £20 for a pack of A4 paper while another was getting a deal at £4.49.
    With the NHS spending of about £100bn a year, savings can make a difference - especially if they appear easy to achieve just by getting smarter with procurement.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-28427295

    Hospital bed-blocking 'costs' NHS England £900m a year
    Lord Carter identified the issue in a wider look at how £5bn could be saved by 2020.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35481849

    Fraud and errors 'costing NHS £7bn a year'
    Fraud is costing the NHS £5bn a year, with a further £2bn lost to errors, the former head of its anti-fraud section, Jim Gee, has suggested.

    The amount lost to fraud alone could pay for nearly 250,000 new nurses, according to a report he co-authored that has been seen by Panorama.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-26711455/fraud-and-errors-costing-nhs-7bn-a-year

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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    edited August 2020
    bbMike said:

    Nope. Don’t believe I’ve said that. The inference is that without the bureaucratic solutions they may in fact need to pay more in negligence claims. But striking a balance between negligence and policies/processes that deliver worse outcomes for patients and the expense side of the P&L doesn’t appear to feature here.

    It is likely that there are more claims because there are firms out there that try to find such claims, which will have the impact of further bolstering the bureaucratic nature of the processes and making them more inefficient.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX6zr2-qT_s
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    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    I thought the thread was about negligence claims?
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    bbMike said:

    I thought the thread was about negligence claims?

    Ok.

    The fact that damages were paid out in over 7,500 cases seems very high.
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    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    How many surgeries are performed/consultations made, and how many successful claims would you expect?
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    CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    Overworked would be part of the reason I'm sure.

    Underappreciated and getting claps instead of pay rises..... o:)
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    bbMike said:

    How many surgeries are performed/consultations made, and how many successful claims would you expect?

    The NHS handed over record compensation of more than £1.4 billion last year – almost double the amount paid out five years ago.

    The annual report also shows there were a record number of clinical claims cases in which damages were paid out, rising ten per cent in a single year to 7,523.

    John O’Connell, chief executive of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said the NHS should ‘get a grip’. He said: ‘This new figure is truly shocking.

    'It’s right and proper for clinicians to have insurance, and patients deserve compensation when things go wrong.

    'But the sheer growth in the number of claims, pay-outs and legal fees is alarming.’


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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    Cammykaze said:

    Overworked would be part of the reason I'm sure.

    Underappreciated and getting claps instead of pay rises..... o:)

    I think that NHS nurses are undervalued, underpaid and do a terrific job.

    Doctors and surgeons are highly paid, and deserve less sympathy.

    Surgeons would prefer to extend waiting lists than make a short term personal sacrifice.

    I would have preferred them to carry on, and give The Government a deadline to resolve their pension problem rather than reduce their hours of work.

    This is a problem The Government should have resolved long ago, and shouldnt have created in the first place.

    They are often accused of having excess management, and admin staff.

    Yet it seems to be very poorly run, lurches from one massive blunder to the next, and appears to be unable to resolve recurring problems like the Winter chaos that seems to occur every year, and recruitment, for instance.

    The above post illustrates the many ways that in which they allow the funding to slip through their fingers, which would never be acceptable in the private sector.

    I suppose that you could put the occasional removing of the wrong kidney, and the amputation of the wrong leg, down to the impossibility of a world without mistakes, nevertheless traumatic events for those concerned.

    The purchase of 30 pence jars of cream for £1500, just seems lazy.
  • Options
    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    How many surgeries are performed/consultations made, and how many successful claims would you expect?

    The NHS handed over record compensation of more than £1.4 billion last year – almost double the amount paid out five years ago.

    The annual report also shows there were a record number of clinical claims cases in which damages were paid out, rising ten per cent in a single year to 7,523.

    John O’Connell, chief executive of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said the NHS should ‘get a grip’. He said: ‘This new figure is truly shocking.

    'It’s right and proper for clinicians to have insurance, and patients deserve compensation when things go wrong.

    'But the sheer growth in the number of claims, pay-outs and legal fees is alarming.’


    I don’t know why you’d quote a question then write 5 paragraphs that don’t go anywhere near answering it.

    Would it be truly shocking if you found that the number of surgeries had doubled in that 5 year period, or that processes had changed due to budget constraints that led to more errors? No attempt to find a causal link to the increases. Has the average legal fee increased too, or is the increase in fees a direct result of the increase in claims?

    I don’t think it’s enough to just be truly shocked and alarmed at some headline figures.

    30p jars of cream for £1500 has nothing to do with clinical negligence, but probably everything to do with the negotiation of procurement contracts. It’s well known that drugs are incredibly expensive whilst in their patent period, and get incredibly cheap once they can be released to the mass market for production. In a lot of cases, this is the cost of negotiating cutting edge drugs/treatments with the drugs companies, but wouldn’t want that getting in the way of headlines and outrage.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    bbMike said:

    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    How many surgeries are performed/consultations made, and how many successful claims would you expect?

    The NHS handed over record compensation of more than £1.4 billion last year – almost double the amount paid out five years ago.

    The annual report also shows there were a record number of clinical claims cases in which damages were paid out, rising ten per cent in a single year to 7,523.

    John O’Connell, chief executive of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said the NHS should ‘get a grip’. He said: ‘This new figure is truly shocking.

    'It’s right and proper for clinicians to have insurance, and patients deserve compensation when things go wrong.

    'But the sheer growth in the number of claims, pay-outs and legal fees is alarming.’


    I don’t know why you’d quote a question then write 5 paragraphs that don’t go anywhere near answering it.

    Would it be truly shocking if you found that the number of surgeries had doubled in that 5 year period, or that processes had changed due to budget constraints that led to more errors? No attempt to find a causal link to the increases. Has the average legal fee increased too, or is the increase in fees a direct result of the increase in claims?

    I don’t think it’s enough to just be truly shocked and alarmed at some headline figures.

    30p jars of cream for £1500 has nothing to do with clinical negligence, but probably everything to do with the negotiation of procurement contracts. It’s well known that drugs are incredibly expensive whilst in their patent period, and get incredibly cheap once they can be released to the mass market for production. In a lot of cases, this is the cost of negotiating cutting edge drugs/treatments with the drugs companies, but wouldn’t want that getting in the way of headlines and outrage.
    NHS faces huge clinical negligence legal fees bill



    The NHS in England faces paying out £4.3bn in legal fees to settle outstanding claims of clinical negligence, the BBC has learned through a Freedom of Information request.

    Each year the NHS receives more than 10,000 new claims for compensation.

    This figure includes all current unsettled claims and projected estimates of ones in the future.

    The Department of Health has pledged to tackle "the unsustainable rise in the cost of clinical negligence".

    Estimates published last year put the total cost of outstanding compensation claims at £83bn.

    NHS England's total budget in 2018-19 was £129bn.


    The Association of Personal Injuries Lawyers believes the cost is driven by failures in patient safety.

    Doctors represented by the Medical Defence Union, which supports doctors at risk of litigation, are calling for "a fundamental" reform of the current system.

    No alternative
    All hospital trusts in England contribute to a central fund called the Clinical Negligence Scheme for Trusts, administered by NHS Resolution, the body which oversees clinical negligence claims.

    This scheme funds the vast majority of claims and legal fees.

    In 2019/20 it is expected that hospitals will put £1.9bn of contributions into the scheme.

    Suzanne White, from the Association of Personal Injuries Lawyers, said people came to her on a daily basis with no intention of suing the NHS.

    But she said they often found it difficult to get answers from the medical authorities - and were left with no other option but to sue.

    "What they want to do is find out what went wrong, why they have received these injuries... and to make sure it doesn't happen to other patients."

    She said that although only 10% of claims relate to obstetrics, they take up 50% of compensation. This is often because a child injured at birth will need a lifetime of care.

    "The NHS is not investigating incidents properly, recognising when it has harmed patients and seeking to compensate them fairly and promptly."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51180944
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    HAYSIE said:

    bbMike said:

    How many surgeries are performed/consultations made, and how many successful claims would you expect?

    The NHS handed over record compensation of more than £1.4 billion last year – almost double the amount paid out five years ago.

    The annual report also shows there were a record number of clinical claims cases in which damages were paid out, rising ten per cent in a single year to 7,523.

    John O’Connell, chief executive of the TaxPayers’ Alliance, said the NHS should ‘get a grip’. He said: ‘This new figure is truly shocking.

    'It’s right and proper for clinicians to have insurance, and patients deserve compensation when things go wrong.

    'But the sheer growth in the number of claims, pay-outs and legal fees is alarming.’


    I don’t know why you’d quote a question then write 5 paragraphs that don’t go anywhere near answering it.

    Would it be truly shocking if you found that the number of surgeries had doubled in that 5 year period, or that processes had changed due to budget constraints that led to more errors? No attempt to find a causal link to the increases. Has the average legal fee increased too, or is the increase in fees a direct result of the increase in claims?

    I don’t think it’s enough to just be truly shocked and alarmed at some headline figures.

    30p jars of cream for £1500 has nothing to do with clinical negligence, but probably everything to do with the negotiation of procurement contracts. It’s well known that drugs are incredibly expensive whilst in their patent period, and get incredibly cheap once they can be released to the mass market for production. In a lot of cases, this is the cost of negotiating cutting edge drugs/treatments with the drugs companies, but wouldn’t want that getting in the way of headlines and outrage.
    NHS faces huge clinical negligence legal fees bill



    The NHS in England faces paying out £4.3bn in legal fees to settle outstanding claims of clinical negligence, the BBC has learned through a Freedom of Information request.

    Each year the NHS receives more than 10,000 new claims for compensation.

    This figure includes all current unsettled claims and projected estimates of ones in the future.

    The Department of Health has pledged to tackle "the unsustainable rise in the cost of clinical negligence".

    Estimates published last year put the total cost of outstanding compensation claims at £83bn.

    NHS England's total budget in 2018-19 was £129bn.


    The Association of Personal Injuries Lawyers believes the cost is driven by failures in patient safety.

    Doctors represented by the Medical Defence Union, which supports doctors at risk of litigation, are calling for "a fundamental" reform of the current system.

    No alternative
    All hospital trusts in England contribute to a central fund called the Clinical Negligence Scheme for Trusts, administered by NHS Resolution, the body which oversees clinical negligence claims.

    This scheme funds the vast majority of claims and legal fees.

    In 2019/20 it is expected that hospitals will put £1.9bn of contributions into the scheme.

    Suzanne White, from the Association of Personal Injuries Lawyers, said people came to her on a daily basis with no intention of suing the NHS.

    But she said they often found it difficult to get answers from the medical authorities - and were left with no other option but to sue.

    "What they want to do is find out what went wrong, why they have received these injuries... and to make sure it doesn't happen to other patients."

    She said that although only 10% of claims relate to obstetrics, they take up 50% of compensation. This is often because a child injured at birth will need a lifetime of care.

    "The NHS is not investigating incidents properly, recognising when it has harmed patients and seeking to compensate them fairly and promptly."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51180944
    This is a short briefing on understanding our provision for claims management.

    Our year in numbers:

    The provision for claims indemnified by us has increased by £6.4 billion to £83.4 billion as of 31 March 2019.
    We received 10,678 new clinical negligence claims, compared to 10,673 in 2017/18 an increase of just five claims (0.08%) – a flattening out in an environment of rising NHS activity.
    The number of new non-clinical claims, typically employers’ and public liability claims, rose from 3,570 received in 2017/18 to 3,585 in 2018/19, a modest increase of 0.42%
    When considering settled claims in 2018/19 of 11,417 clinical and 4,237 non-clinical claims, the proportion settled without damages was 44% and 56%, respectively
    The number of mediations on clinical negligence claims has increased by119% in a single year, up to 380 from 173 in 2017/18 – exceeding the number of clinical negligence trials (62) more than six-fold.
    The number of new referrals received by our Practitioner Performance Advice team in relation to the performance of doctors, dentists and pharmacists within the NHS remained broadly consistent, with 925 new requests for advice compared to 919 in the previous year.
    Our Primary Care Appeals team received 171 appeals in accordance with the Pharmacy Regulations compared to 170 in the last financial year

    https://resolution.nhs.uk/2019/07/11/clinical-negligence-numbers-steady-but-rising-costs-remain-a-concern/
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    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    edited August 2020
    So no big movement year on year. What’s your point? Might be worth reading these things before posting them if you’re trying to make a coherent point. Perhaps the base stat from 5 years ago was unusually low?

    The numbers are steady but costs increasing, so where’s the “truly shocking” “alarm” coming from?

    Sounds to me that they want their doctors to have more protection from the increased litigious landscape. Mistakes are going to be made.

    “ Doctors represented by the Medical Defence Union, which supports doctors at risk of litigation, are calling for "a fundamental" reform of the current system.”

    Sounds like this referring to a reform of the legal game, not the medical practises.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    bbMike said:

    So no big movement year on year. What’s your point? Might be worth reading these things before posting them if you’re trying to make a coherent point. Perhaps the base stat from 5 years ago was unusually low?

    The numbers are steady but costs increasing, so where’s the “truly shocking” “alarm” coming from?

    Sounds to me that they want their doctors to have more protection from the increased litigious landscape. Mistakes are going to be made.

    “ Doctors represented by the Medical Defence Union, which supports doctors at risk of litigation, are calling for "a fundamental" reform of the current system.”

    Sounds like this referring to a reform of the legal game, not the medical practises.

    If you cant see anything wrong with this and think it is well managed, I am not going to explain it to you.
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    bbMikebbMike Member Posts: 3,702
    HAYSIE said:

    If you cant see anything wrong with this and think it is well managed, I am not going to explain it to you.

    Great attitude, you should be a teacher. Or better yet a management consultant working for the NHS.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,239
    bbMike said:

    HAYSIE said:

    If you cant see anything wrong with this and think it is well managed, I am not going to explain it to you.

    Great attitude, you should be a teacher. Or better yet a management consultant working for the NHS.
    I initially started this thread because the extent of the problem surprised me.

    I have previously been surprised by other stories of huge wastage in The NHS.

    As a contributor I feel disappointed, and hoped that the wasted money could be put to better use.

    Despite your constant nitpicking, I dont feel it necessary to say what I think you should be doing.

    You are entitled to your views, I respect them, and even though I disagree with them, I see no reason to resort to personal insults.
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