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Effects Of Brexit.

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    edited February 2021
    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    If you had read the article you may have noticed that it was regarding the potato growers.
    You may have also twigged that the government have introduced a scheme to replace seasonal workers, which worked perfectly to replace the potato pickers in Jersey, and presumably throughout the rest of the UK, as nobody else seems to be moaning.
    Although this may happen later in the year.
    The point is they did not include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    Have a glance at the article and you may grasp the point.

    Jersey potato farmers fly in workers from the Philippines to stop crops rotting in the fields and plug gap left by Romanian and Polish migrants after Brexit
    Crops have gone to waste this year due to a shortfall in seasonal farm pickers
    Usually around 98 per cent of seasonal pickers in the UK come from abroad
    Jersey farmers say void has finally been filled by workers from the Philippines


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9147437/Jersey-potato-farmers-fly-workers-Philippines.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    I'm sure I remember you saying you were a "glass half full" person.

    I am.

    Presumably that changed once Brexit arrived.

    No.
    Are you saying that I cant be positive whilst posting about the effects of Brexit?
    That probably says more about the effects of Brexit, than it does about me.


    You see insurmountable problems. I see challenges and business opportunities.

    I have not for a minute said that any problems are insurmountable.

    You see that the fact that the majority of seasonal workers are migrants as a problem. You do not think businesses have the primary duty to plan for their own future. Whether that be by making your business more attractive than similar ones, or moving to more full-time staff. And that Governments should now more about the daffodil growing industry than daffodil growers. Or live fish exporting better than live fish exporters. I do not.

    It wasnt just a majority, it was 98%.
    The government saw a problem which was created by Brexit, and put a solution in place.
    They merely forgot to include ornamental growers.


    You believe that a business that relies on over 90% seasonal staff should wait until 2021 before trying to get 49 caravans for migrant workers. I do not.

    I dont know who the caravans were intended for.
    When do you think they should have started recruiting for 2021?
    They guy said they had made efforts to recruit locally


    You believe that I know nothing about the industry. Let's see. My mother-in-law was a full-time picker for 50 years. In a business that ensured that there were year-round crops, thus necessitating far fewer seasonal workers. Which is the norm round here. Because the changing tax and benefit regime, coupled with changing lifestyles, meant that there was little appetite in the UK for hard manual seasonal work. Unless you believe that The Darling Buds of May is representative of life today.

    You are completely twisting my words.
    In your original post on this you made a number of assertions regarding what the company had, and hadnt done, when you have no idea of what recriutment efforts they have made.


    You may believe that a large Cornish employer stating to the press that he thinks the locals are workshy is wise. I do not.

    Local people obviously make up a massive 2% of the workforce.
    I think he was making the point that it is a tough job.


    Does Brexit cause challenges? Of course it does. But if you are a business that hasn't bothered to have a Plan B since 2016, and seek to blame everyone else, then I don't agree that it is all everyone else's fault. Because change means opportunity. Winners as well as losers. And change has always been inevitable in business.
    What would your solution be if you were in the daffs business?
    I get that you believe you are an optimist. You may be. But not on UK business post-Brexit.

    I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that there has to be a choice of either being positive, or pointing out obvious difficulties caused by Brexit.
    I also think that it is senseless to try to argue that this problem was not caused by Brexit, and in particular stopping freedom of movement.
    You can argue that a company could have attempted to have taken steps to get around the problem.
    But the problem was still caused by Brexit.
    The government could have allowed seasonal low skilled EU workers to get work permits, and easily solved the problem.
    However they chose to allow low skilled workers from further afield instead.
    I keep repeating myself, but its not going in.
    They forgot to include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    This is why the government is to blame in the case of the daffs.


    Locals do not make up 2% of the workforce. They make up 2% of the seasonal workforce. Massive difference. Unless you think their hundreds of permanent workers commute from Romania every day?

    The overwhelming majority of jobs are seasonal.
    Many of the permanent jobs will be filled by people that have moved here from Romania
    .

    The caravan point is self-evident.
    senseless I'm not "twisting your words". I'm using them to show that the position is far more nuanced than you want to believe. You make it sound like there were no problems before Brexit. Just to give some examples:-

    The caravan point is clearly not self evident.
    We both dont know who the caravans were meant to accommodate.
    You were twisting my words.
    You made a number of assertions regarding the company, which you know absolutely nothing about.
    You dont have a clue about any of the efforts that they might have made.
    I would be surprised if a company that produces 500 million daffs per year is run by fools.
    You twisted what I said into you not knowing anything about picking, when I clearly said that you know nothing about this particular company.
    I stand by what I have said.


    1. UK ceased to want to spend their holidays doing hard manual labour
    2. Then the Travelling community did the same
    3. The EU placed restrictions on people from outside the EU
    4. The EU initially did not allow certain new entrants free movement
    5. The UK has had, under all Governments, a lamentably haphazard approach to economic migration. Making business decisions difficult

    None of that alters the fact that this problem was caused by Brexit.

    Never been in the daffs business. What would I do if I had been? Seek external opinion from an expert. Either from within the industry, or an external expert. Probably more than 1-accountant, business analyst, agronomist, commercial/employment lawyer.

    Wouldnt you have expected an organisation of this size to have explored the above?
    Dont you think that it may be a trifle arrogant to suggest that they may not have taken such obvious steps?


    No professional can ever reveal their client. I have never advised this particular Company.

    Going on what you have said so far, dont hold your breath waiting for a phone call.

    But let's take a hypothetical suggestion. Let's suppose a flower grower, recognising the problems of a business model dependent on migrant workers sought advice. Let's say in 2012. What might my advice have been then? Purely at a guess, it just might have been:-

    1. Increase full-timers
    2. Diversify produce, so can have a longer harvest
    3. More facilities-seasonal workers lack the social interaction local staff enjoy
    4. Reward returners/people who influence in their community
    5. Compare rivals reward packages, so well positioned to poach staff from rivals

    I am not going to get into the merits of the above, although some pitfalls are evident.
    I fully expect the problem to be sorted by next year.
    There is no doubt in my mind that the government will extend their visa scheme currently in place for food growers, to include ornamental growers.
    Allowing them to recruit from further afield and non EU European countries.


    That would have been advice in
    2013. Had 1 of their rivals ever contacted me, obviously.

    Naturally, they didn't. That must be why you are so sure I know naff all about the subject, and that we need to return to the halcyon days before Brexit. When no business problems existed.

    Any seasonal business that relied on 98% of their workforce coming from abroad, was bound to suffer if they were no longer eligible.
    In this case Brexit put a stop to it.


  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,782
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    If you had read the article you may have noticed that it was regarding the potato growers.
    You may have also twigged that the government have introduced a scheme to replace seasonal workers, which worked perfectly to replace the potato pickers in Jersey, and presumably throughout the rest of the UK, as nobody else seems to be moaning.
    Although this may happen later in the year.
    The point is they did not include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    Have a glance at the article and you may grasp the point.

    Jersey potato farmers fly in workers from the Philippines to stop crops rotting in the fields and plug gap left by Romanian and Polish migrants after Brexit
    Crops have gone to waste this year due to a shortfall in seasonal farm pickers
    Usually around 98 per cent of seasonal pickers in the UK come from abroad
    Jersey farmers say void has finally been filled by workers from the Philippines


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9147437/Jersey-potato-farmers-fly-workers-Philippines.html
    I try to avoid reading articles from the Daily Mail 2 main reasons:-

    1. They tend to be xenophobic; and
    2. They tend to be written by people who don't let facts get in the way of pleasing a section of their readers.

    You believe that Brexit impacts upon Jersey potato growers. Because the headline says so.

    You do know that Jersey has never been in the EU? And has, therefore, never left it? There has never been freedom of movement to Jersey.

    You do know that it has never been in the UK? And has always been free to make its own Laws? And has always done so. Try applying to live in Jersey. You'll soon see that immigration is totally different there. They would not let you (or me) live there.

    It was clearly irking you that I didn't read the article. As is so often the case in that disgusting rag, the real reason was given halfway down the article. They've had Polish seasonal workers coming for years. The Polish economy has picked up, and they've stopped coming.

    Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

    Why do you think the UK is prioritising food over ornamental producers? Could it possibly be because there are less seasonal workers, and we would rather risk having flower shortages than food shortages?
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,782
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    I'm sure I remember you saying you were a "glass half full" person.

    I am.

    Presumably that changed once Brexit arrived.

    No.
    Are you saying that I cant be positive whilst posting about the effects of Brexit?
    That probably says more about the effects of Brexit, than it does about me.


    You see insurmountable problems. I see challenges and business opportunities.

    I have not for a minute said that any problems are insurmountable.

    You see that the fact that the majority of seasonal workers are migrants as a problem. You do not think businesses have the primary duty to plan for their own future. Whether that be by making your business more attractive than similar ones, or moving to more full-time staff. And that Governments should now more about the daffodil growing industry than daffodil growers. Or live fish exporting better than live fish exporters. I do not.

    It wasnt just a majority, it was 98%.
    The government saw a problem which was created by Brexit, and put a solution in place.
    They merely forgot to include ornamental growers.


    You believe that a business that relies on over 90% seasonal staff should wait until 2021 before trying to get 49 caravans for migrant workers. I do not.

    I dont know who the caravans were intended for.
    When do you think they should have started recruiting for 2021?
    They guy said they had made efforts to recruit locally


    You believe that I know nothing about the industry. Let's see. My mother-in-law was a full-time picker for 50 years. In a business that ensured that there were year-round crops, thus necessitating far fewer seasonal workers. Which is the norm round here. Because the changing tax and benefit regime, coupled with changing lifestyles, meant that there was little appetite in the UK for hard manual seasonal work. Unless you believe that The Darling Buds of May is representative of life today.

    You are completely twisting my words.
    In your original post on this you made a number of assertions regarding what the company had, and hadnt done, when you have no idea of what recriutment efforts they have made.


    You may believe that a large Cornish employer stating to the press that he thinks the locals are workshy is wise. I do not.

    Local people obviously make up a massive 2% of the workforce.
    I think he was making the point that it is a tough job.


    Does Brexit cause challenges? Of course it does. But if you are a business that hasn't bothered to have a Plan B since 2016, and seek to blame everyone else, then I don't agree that it is all everyone else's fault. Because change means opportunity. Winners as well as losers. And change has always been inevitable in business.
    What would your solution be if you were in the daffs business?
    I get that you believe you are an optimist. You may be. But not on UK business post-Brexit.

    I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that there has to be a choice of either being positive, or pointing out obvious difficulties caused by Brexit.
    I also think that it is senseless to try to argue that this problem was not caused by Brexit, and in particular stopping freedom of movement.
    You can argue that a company could have attempted to have taken steps to get around the problem.
    But the problem was still caused by Brexit.
    The government could have allowed seasonal low skilled EU workers to get work permits, and easily solved the problem.
    However they chose to allow low skilled workers from further afield instead.
    I keep repeating myself, but its not going in.
    They forgot to include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    This is why the government is to blame in the case of the daffs.


    Locals do not make up 2% of the workforce. They make up 2% of the seasonal workforce. Massive difference. Unless you think their hundreds of permanent workers commute from Romania every day?

    The overwhelming majority of jobs are seasonal.
    Many of the permanent jobs will be filled by people that have moved here from Romania
    .

    The caravan point is self-evident.
    senseless I'm not "twisting your words". I'm using them to show that the position is far more nuanced than you want to believe. You make it sound like there were no problems before Brexit. Just to give some examples:-

    The caravan point is clearly not self evident.
    We both dont know who the caravans were meant to accommodate.
    You were twisting my words.
    You made a number of assertions regarding the company, which you know absolutely nothing about.
    You dont have a clue about any of the efforts that they might have made.
    I would be surprised if a company that produces 500 million daffs per year is run by fools.
    You twisted what I said into you not knowing anything about picking, when I clearly said that you know nothing about this particular company.
    I stand by what I have said.


    1. UK ceased to want to spend their holidays doing hard manual labour
    2. Then the Travelling community did the same
    3. The EU placed restrictions on people from outside the EU
    4. The EU initially did not allow certain new entrants free movement
    5. The UK has had, under all Governments, a lamentably haphazard approach to economic migration. Making business decisions difficult

    None of that alters the fact that this problem was caused by Brexit.

    Never been in the daffs business. What would I do if I had been? Seek external opinion from an expert. Either from within the industry, or an external expert. Probably more than 1-accountant, business analyst, agronomist, commercial/employment lawyer.

    Wouldnt you have expected an organisation of this size to have explored the above?
    Dont you think that it may be a trifle arrogant to suggest that they may not have taken such obvious steps?


    No professional can ever reveal their client. I have never advised this particular Company.

    Going on what you have said so far, dont hold your breath waiting for a phone call.

    But let's take a hypothetical suggestion. Let's suppose a flower grower, recognising the problems of a business model dependent on migrant workers sought advice. Let's say in 2012. What might my advice have been then? Purely at a guess, it just might have been:-

    1. Increase full-timers
    2. Diversify produce, so can have a longer harvest
    3. More facilities-seasonal workers lack the social interaction local staff enjoy
    4. Reward returners/people who influence in their community
    5. Compare rivals reward packages, so well positioned to poach staff from rivals

    I am not going to get into the merits of the above, although some pitfalls are evident.
    I fully expect the problem to be sorted by next year.
    There is no doubt in my mind that the government will extend their visa scheme currently in place for food growers, to include ornamental growers.
    Allowing them to recruit from further afield and non EU European countries.


    That would have been advice in
    2013. Had 1 of their rivals ever contacted me, obviously.

    Naturally, they didn't. That must be why you are so sure I know naff all about the subject, and that we need to return to the halcyon days before Brexit. When no business problems existed.

    Any seasonal business that relied on 98% of their workforce coming from abroad, was bound to suffer if they were no longer eligible.
    In this case Brexit put a stop to it.


    Wow.

    Seriously, you are better than this.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:
    I'm sure I remember you saying you were a "glass half full" person.

    I am.

    Presumably that changed once Brexit arrived.

    No.
    Are you saying that I cant be positive whilst posting about the effects of Brexit?
    That probably says more about the effects of Brexit, than it does about me.


    You see insurmountable problems. I see challenges and business opportunities.

    I have not for a minute said that any problems are insurmountable.

    You see that the fact that the majority of seasonal workers are migrants as a problem. You do not think businesses have the primary duty to plan for their own future. Whether that be by making your business more attractive than similar ones, or moving to more full-time staff. And that Governments should now more about the daffodil growing industry than daffodil growers. Or live fish exporting better than live fish exporters. I do not.

    It wasnt just a majority, it was 98%.
    The government saw a problem which was created by Brexit, and put a solution in place.
    They merely forgot to include ornamental growers.


    You believe that a business that relies on over 90% seasonal staff should wait until 2021 before trying to get 49 caravans for migrant workers. I do not.

    I dont know who the caravans were intended for.
    When do you think they should have started recruiting for 2021?
    They guy said they had made efforts to recruit locally


    You believe that I know nothing about the industry. Let's see. My mother-in-law was a full-time picker for 50 years. In a business that ensured that there were year-round crops, thus necessitating far fewer seasonal workers. Which is the norm round here. Because the changing tax and benefit regime, coupled with changing lifestyles, meant that there was little appetite in the UK for hard manual seasonal work. Unless you believe that The Darling Buds of May is representative of life today.

    You are completely twisting my words.
    In your original post on this you made a number of assertions regarding what the company had, and hadnt done, when you have no idea of what recriutment efforts they have made.


    You may believe that a large Cornish employer stating to the press that he thinks the locals are workshy is wise. I do not.

    Local people obviously make up a massive 2% of the workforce.
    I think he was making the point that it is a tough job.


    Does Brexit cause challenges? Of course it does. But if you are a business that hasn't bothered to have a Plan B since 2016, and seek to blame everyone else, then I don't agree that it is all everyone else's fault. Because change means opportunity. Winners as well as losers. And change has always been inevitable in business.
    What would your solution be if you were in the daffs business?
    I get that you believe you are an optimist. You may be. But not on UK business post-Brexit.

    I think it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest that there has to be a choice of either being positive, or pointing out obvious difficulties caused by Brexit.
    I also think that it is senseless to try to argue that this problem was not caused by Brexit, and in particular stopping freedom of movement.
    You can argue that a company could have attempted to have taken steps to get around the problem.
    But the problem was still caused by Brexit.
    The government could have allowed seasonal low skilled EU workers to get work permits, and easily solved the problem.
    However they chose to allow low skilled workers from further afield instead.
    I keep repeating myself, but its not going in.
    They forgot to include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    This is why the government is to blame in the case of the daffs.


    Locals do not make up 2% of the workforce. They make up 2% of the seasonal workforce. Massive difference. Unless you think their hundreds of permanent workers commute from Romania every day?

    The overwhelming majority of jobs are seasonal.
    Many of the permanent jobs will be filled by people that have moved here from Romania
    .

    The caravan point is self-evident.
    senseless I'm not "twisting your words". I'm using them to show that the position is far more nuanced than you want to believe. You make it sound like there were no problems before Brexit. Just to give some examples:-

    The caravan point is clearly not self evident.
    We both dont know who the caravans were meant to accommodate.
    You were twisting my words.
    You made a number of assertions regarding the company, which you know absolutely nothing about.
    You dont have a clue about any of the efforts that they might have made.
    I would be surprised if a company that produces 500 million daffs per year is run by fools.
    You twisted what I said into you not knowing anything about picking, when I clearly said that you know nothing about this particular company.
    I stand by what I have said.


    1. UK ceased to want to spend their holidays doing hard manual labour
    2. Then the Travelling community did the same
    3. The EU placed restrictions on people from outside the EU
    4. The EU initially did not allow certain new entrants free movement
    5. The UK has had, under all Governments, a lamentably haphazard approach to economic migration. Making business decisions difficult

    None of that alters the fact that this problem was caused by Brexit.

    Never been in the daffs business. What would I do if I had been? Seek external opinion from an expert. Either from within the industry, or an external expert. Probably more than 1-accountant, business analyst, agronomist, commercial/employment lawyer.

    Wouldnt you have expected an organisation of this size to have explored the above?
    Dont you think that it may be a trifle arrogant to suggest that they may not have taken such obvious steps?


    No professional can ever reveal their client. I have never advised this particular Company.

    Going on what you have said so far, dont hold your breath waiting for a phone call.

    But let's take a hypothetical suggestion. Let's suppose a flower grower, recognising the problems of a business model dependent on migrant workers sought advice. Let's say in 2012. What might my advice have been then? Purely at a guess, it just might have been:-

    1. Increase full-timers
    2. Diversify produce, so can have a longer harvest
    3. More facilities-seasonal workers lack the social interaction local staff enjoy
    4. Reward returners/people who influence in their community
    5. Compare rivals reward packages, so well positioned to poach staff from rivals

    I am not going to get into the merits of the above, although some pitfalls are evident.
    I fully expect the problem to be sorted by next year.
    There is no doubt in my mind that the government will extend their visa scheme currently in place for food growers, to include ornamental growers.
    Allowing them to recruit from further afield and non EU European countries.


    That would have been advice in
    2013. Had 1 of their rivals ever contacted me, obviously.

    Naturally, they didn't. That must be why you are so sure I know naff all about the subject, and that we need to return to the halcyon days before Brexit. When no business problems existed.

    Any seasonal business that relied on 98% of their workforce coming from abroad, was bound to suffer if they were no longer eligible.
    In this case Brexit put a stop to it.


    Wow.

    Seriously, you are better than this.
    ?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    If you had read the article you may have noticed that it was regarding the potato growers.
    You may have also twigged that the government have introduced a scheme to replace seasonal workers, which worked perfectly to replace the potato pickers in Jersey, and presumably throughout the rest of the UK, as nobody else seems to be moaning.
    Although this may happen later in the year.
    The point is they did not include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    Have a glance at the article and you may grasp the point.

    Jersey potato farmers fly in workers from the Philippines to stop crops rotting in the fields and plug gap left by Romanian and Polish migrants after Brexit
    Crops have gone to waste this year due to a shortfall in seasonal farm pickers
    Usually around 98 per cent of seasonal pickers in the UK come from abroad
    Jersey farmers say void has finally been filled by workers from the Philippines


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9147437/Jersey-potato-farmers-fly-workers-Philippines.html
    I try to avoid reading articles from the Daily Mail 2 main reasons:-

    1. They tend to be xenophobic; and
    2. They tend to be written by people who don't let facts get in the way of pleasing a section of their readers.

    You believe that Brexit impacts upon Jersey potato growers. Because the headline says so.

    You do know that Jersey has never been in the EU? And has, therefore, never left it? There has never been freedom of movement to Jersey.

    You do know that it has never been in the UK? And has always been free to make its own Laws? And has always done so. Try applying to live in Jersey. You'll soon see that immigration is totally different there. They would not let you (or me) live there.

    It was clearly irking you that I didn't read the article. As is so often the case in that disgusting rag, the real reason was given halfway down the article. They've had Polish seasonal workers coming for years. The Polish economy has picked up, and they've stopped coming.

    Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

    Why do you think the UK is prioritising food over ornamental producers? Could it possibly be because there are less seasonal workers, and we would rather risk having flower shortages than food shortages?
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    If you had read the article you may have noticed that it was regarding the potato growers.
    You may have also twigged that the government have introduced a scheme to replace seasonal workers, which worked perfectly to replace the potato pickers in Jersey, and presumably throughout the rest of the UK, as nobody else seems to be moaning.
    Although this may happen later in the year.
    The point is they did not include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    Have a glance at the article and you may grasp the point.

    Jersey potato farmers fly in workers from the Philippines to stop crops rotting in the fields and plug gap left by Romanian and Polish migrants after Brexit
    Crops have gone to waste this year due to a shortfall in seasonal farm pickers
    Usually around 98 per cent of seasonal pickers in the UK come from abroad
    Jersey farmers say void has finally been filled by workers from the Philippines


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9147437/Jersey-potato-farmers-fly-workers-Philippines.html
    I try to avoid reading articles from the Daily Mail 2 main reasons:-

    1. They tend to be xenophobic; and
    2. They tend to be written by people who don't let facts get in the way of pleasing a section of their readers.

    You believe that Brexit impacts upon Jersey potato growers. Because the headline says so.

    You do know that Jersey has never been in the EU? And has, therefore, never left it? There has never been freedom of movement to Jersey.

    You do know that it has never been in the UK? And has always been free to make its own Laws? And has always done so. Try applying to live in Jersey. You'll soon see that immigration is totally different there. They would not let you (or me) live there.

    It was clearly irking you that I didn't read the article. As is so often the case in that disgusting rag, the real reason was given halfway down the article. They've had Polish seasonal workers coming for years. The Polish economy has picked up, and they've stopped coming.

    Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

    Why do you think the UK is prioritising food over ornamental producers? Could it possibly be because there are less seasonal workers, and we would rather risk having flower shortages than food shortages?
    Peter Le Maistre, president of the Jersey Farmers Union, explained that the impact of Brexit had led to more farm workers being recruited from further afield.

    He said: 'Since the Brexit vote in 2016 the economy has improved significantly in Poland compared to when they first came to work in Jersey around 2001.

    'So it was getting more and more difficult to find workers from Eastern Europe. A couple of years ago we started to look around for another source of labour.'

    Mr Le Maistre said that a contact of the union in Jersey had heard of Filipino workers being employed through an agency in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    'By the end of this month we'll have already got 35 Filipino workers in and another 15 are coming by the end of this week. So we will have 50 Filipino workers across farms in Jersey for 2021.'

    The island's farmers have relied on seasonal labour for more than 100 years and until the 1960s they came largely from Brittany for the potato season.

    The French workers were replaced by Portuguese, mostly from Madeira, who were succeeded by Polish people after Poland joined the EU in 2004.

    She said: 'The Farmers' Union help us to bring them in. Other farmers also go via the union, who work with an agency in the Philippines to recruit workers.

    As far as I am concerned we are a team and a family. We have Portuguese, Filipino and Polish workers all working together. To know that everybody is happy and content is really important.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9147437/Jersey-potato-farmers-fly-workers-Philippines.html



    'But for the time being that's only for edible crops. It does not include ornamental crops. By definition, flowers are excluded from that.'

    Mr Newey has raised his concerns with the government.

    'I have to say the responses are positive and we are hopeful that the ornamentals sector will be included in the scheme, but as yet it hasn't happened. In any event, we're too late for this flower season.'

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9286973/Worlds-largest-daffodil-grower-Cornwall-forced-let-flowers-ROT-not-pickers.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    Essexphil said:

    Just a quick final point.

    You mentioned earlier in this thread the problems Jersey flower growers were experiencing.

    When did Jersey leave the EU? Or indeed join?

    If you had read the article you may have noticed that it was regarding the potato growers.
    You may have also twigged that the government have introduced a scheme to replace seasonal workers, which worked perfectly to replace the potato pickers in Jersey, and presumably throughout the rest of the UK, as nobody else seems to be moaning.
    Although this may happen later in the year.
    The point is they did not include ornamental growers in the scheme.
    Have a glance at the article and you may grasp the point.

    Jersey potato farmers fly in workers from the Philippines to stop crops rotting in the fields and plug gap left by Romanian and Polish migrants after Brexit
    Crops have gone to waste this year due to a shortfall in seasonal farm pickers
    Usually around 98 per cent of seasonal pickers in the UK come from abroad
    Jersey farmers say void has finally been filled by workers from the Philippines


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9147437/Jersey-potato-farmers-fly-workers-Philippines.html
    I try to avoid reading articles from the Daily Mail 2 main reasons:-

    1. They tend to be xenophobic; and
    2. They tend to be written by people who don't let facts get in the way of pleasing a section of their readers.

    You believe that Brexit impacts upon Jersey potato growers. Because the headline says so.

    You do know that Jersey has never been in the EU? And has, therefore, never left it? There has never been freedom of movement to Jersey.

    You do know that it has never been in the UK? And has always been free to make its own Laws? And has always done so. Try applying to live in Jersey. You'll soon see that immigration is totally different there. They would not let you (or me) live there.

    It was clearly irking you that I didn't read the article. As is so often the case in that disgusting rag, the real reason was given halfway down the article. They've had Polish seasonal workers coming for years. The Polish economy has picked up, and they've stopped coming.

    Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

    Why do you think the UK is prioritising food over ornamental producers? Could it possibly be because there are less seasonal workers, and we would rather risk having flower shortages than food shortages?
    Forgetting about the pros and cons of the Daily Mail.
    The solution they have reached in Jersey, would seem to a realistic way of solving the problem throughout the UK.
    Much better than dreaming that the impossible can be achieved and that the vacancies could be filled by Brits.
    I spent 20 years struggling to fill well paid jobs in Cornwall, and other rural areas in the UK.
    I do have some knowledge of the Channel Islands, as I lived and worked in Guernsey in my younger days.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Future of Vauxhall's Ellesmere Port hangs in balance: Bosses could close Astra-building plant that has 1,000 staff and shift production to EU - after government's 'brutal' decision to ban sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030


    Senior executives at Stellantis, Vauxhall's parent company, are set to decide the future of the Cheshire plant, marking a critical moment for Britain's post-Brexit manufacturing.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9298387/Future-Vauxhalls-Ellesmere-Port-hangs-balance.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    'No room for pro-Europeans in Tory party': Would-be MPs need to show show 'real Brexit enthusiasm' to stand a chance of getting selected, says Amber Rudd


    Former Home Secretary Amber Rudd, pictured, claimed it is impossible for a pro-European to be selected as a Conservative candidate as they are now required to show 'real Brexit enthusiasm'.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9297445/Amber-Rudd-claims-pro-Europeans-no-longer-welcome-Tory-Party.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Inside Politics: ERG Tory MPs want Boris Johnson to scrap the protocol
    Brexiteer backbenchers think it’s time for No 10 to give up on current arrangements for Northern Ireland,




    It’s just possible Stormzy – the man who once led the Glastonbury crowd to chant “f*** Boris” in unison – is feeling a touch of gratitude towards the PM. The Reading and Leeds Festivals, which Stormzy is headlining, are set to go ahead this summer. “The government have done it – the government are vaccinating everybody,” said the festival boss. It’s just possible the EU is feeling grateful towards Boris Johnson too. It looks like Brussels is set to poach some major financial business from Britain. But there’s no gratitude at all from the Brexiteers in the ERG. They’re demanding the PM ditches the dreaded protocol.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/uk-news/boris-johnson-brexit-protocol-erg-b1807119.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Brexit news - live: Protocol checks could be ‘overwhelmed’ after grace period as Foster blasts ‘tone deaf’ EU



    Tensions were high on Wednesday evening at a meeting of the UK and EU Joint Committee, which ended in Arlene Foster blasting European officials as “tone deaf”.

    Northern Ireland’s first minister said she did not have “high expectations [beforehand]... given the attitude of the European Commission thus far”, but was still shocked by Brussels’ “stubborn and inflexible response” to issues surrounding the protocol.

    Speaking to the BBC afterwards, Ms Foster said it was now up to Boris Johnson and the government “to step up and protect the United Kingdom internal market”.

    It comes after a junior DUP minister warned the party that Irish Sea checking processes could become “overwhelmed” when a grace period covering supermarket goods lapses on 1 April, at which point all retail agri-food products will require EU Export Health Certificates (EHCs) to move from Britain in to Northern Ireland.

    “We can’t have a situation where the internal market of the United Kingdom is disrupted so much to the point where it’s effectively crippling our businesses,” Gary Middleton told an Assembly committee.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-news-live-brexit-update-eu-b1806538.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Essexphil said:

    No. How many times.
    It's caused by poor business planning. With Brexit used as a poor excuse.


    1. December 2020 update
    On 22 December 2020, the government announced an extension to the Seasonal Workers Pilot for 2021, with an expanded quota of 30,000 places.

    2. Introduction
    On 6 March 2019, the government announced the commencement of the Seasonal Workers Pilot for 2019 and 2020 (the Initial Pilot), enabling the recruitment of a limited number of temporary migrants for specific roles in the horticultural sector.

    On 22 December 2020, the government extended the Pilot for a further year, with an expanded quota of 30,000 places (the Extended Pilot), giving rise to the need for an additional two operators.

    7.2 Size of the Pilot in 2021
    The Extended Pilot will have a total of 30,000 visas available in 2021. This is an increase from 10,000 in 2020.


    The Extended Pilot does not seek to provide all of the horticultural sector’s required seasonal labour for 2021, rather to test an approach and to supplement domestic UK labour, which was previously provided by EU and UK workers in 2019 and 2020.

    From 2021 the UK will have a new immigration system and only EU workers with settled status may take up or travel to the UK for seasonal roles below skill level RQF 3.

    The number of available visas will be reviewed during 2021, with a view towards helping the sector transition to a future state based on automated technologies and a motivated domestic workforce.

    7.4 Purpose
    The purpose of the Extended Pilot is to:

    pilot a new immigration route for seasonal workers in the horticulture sector
    test the Pilot’s ability to alleviate some of the shortages of seasonal workers in the horticulture sector, by allowing four Pilot Operators to sponsor the entry into the UK of migrant seasonal workers for up to 6 months, in 2021


    7.5 Objectives
    The objectives of the Extended Pilot are to:

    test the Pilot’s ability to mitigate seasonal labour shortages in UK horticulture
    provide seasonal labour across the UK, so that all parts of the UK benefit from the Pilot
    determine if the Pilot might provide a longer-term model for responding to seasonal labour shortages in this sector
    assess the capability of the industry to manage the Pilot effectively
    assess the impact of the Pilot on local communities
    ensure that the Pilot provides for robust immigration control
    ensure that the Pilot adequately protects migrant workers from modern slavery and other labour abuses
    ensure that the monitoring and reporting regime adequately informs the Home Office and Defra of the operation of the Pilot
    assess the financial impact of the Pilot


    8.1 Sector
    Defra has decided the Extended Pilot will only cover horticulture – in particular edible horticulture – as this is where significant seasonal labour shortages are being reported.

    For the purposes of this time-limited Pilot, based on consultation with policy experts and industry representatives, Defra proposes the following sector definition:

    The Extended Pilot will allow the recruitment of seasonal labour for work within the edible horticulture sector. Defra defines the edible horticulture sector to include the following:

    protected vegetables – those grown in glasshouse systems
    field vegetables – those grown outdoors, including vegetables, herbs, leafy salads and potatoes
    soft fruit – those grown outdoors or under cover e.g. in glasshouses or polytunnel. Includes strawberries, raspberries, blackcurrants, blueberries and all ribes and rubus species
    top fruit (orchard fruit) - trees that bear fruit e.g. apples, plums, cherries, apricots
    vine and bines – both twining or climbing flexible stems of certain plants, e.g. hops is a bine, and grapes is a vine
    mushrooms – typically covers Agaricus bisporus species but can also include more exotic species. Typically grown indoors
    The scope may be revised in the future.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/seasonal-workers-pilot-request-for-information/seasonal-workers-pilot-request-for-information
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    US dashes Boris Johnson’s hopes of quick post-Brexit trade deal by announcing ‘review’ of talks




    The US has dashed Boris Johnson’s hopes of a quick post-Brexit trade deal, announcing a “review” of the negotiations so far.

    Joe Biden’s pick to be his trade envoy slammed the brakes on the talks, pointing to a lot of “developments” since they began in 2018 and the priority of defeating the Covid-19 threat.

    There was a need to “review the discussions and the negotiations so far, in the light of all of these developments”, Katherine Tai told a confirmation hearing.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-dashes-boris-johnson-s-hopes-of-quick-post-brexit-trade-deal-by-announcing-review-of-talks/ar-BB1e19gP?ocid=msedgntp
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Exporters hit by new red tape are paying price for Boris Johnson’s hard Brexit, says David Cameron


    Businesses hit by punishing new red tape at Britain’s borders are paying the price for Boris Johnson’s hard Brexit, David Cameron says.

    The former prime minister dismissed the government’s claims of merely “teething problems”, warning the “bureaucracy” was the inevitable result of leaving the EU single market.

    “I hope they can tackle as many of these problems as possible but, ultimately, some of them are because we chose to leave the single market and become a third country,” he said.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/exporters-hit-red-tape-paying-132711288.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    'We're keeping our businesses moving!' How three British firms are flourishing as they forge a new relationship with the EU


    The rules on trading with Europe have changed, but these companies are going from strength to strength


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9294945/How-three-British-businesses-flourishing-forge-new-relationship-EU.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Britain failed to tell EU countries about convictions of more than 135,000 criminals including almost 200 killers and rapists after massive computer glitch



    Almost 200 killers and rapists were among the huge number of European offenders whose UK court records were missed by a catastrophic computer glitch, potentially putting lives at risk.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9317351/Britain-failed-tell-EU-countries-convictions-100-000-criminals.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    The Guardian reports on the computer failure that led to details of more than 100,000 convictions not being shared by the UK with the criminals' home EU country.

    The list includes 191 killers and rapists.

    The paper says officials knew about errors within the system in 2015, after several criminals were recorded as coming from a tiny atoll in the Pacific Ocean known as Wake Island, rather than Wakefield.

    The Home Office says it has been working at pace to ensure the necessary data is shared with affected member states.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-56260796
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    We are now seeing the impact of Brexit – it is time for an apology from all the people who dismissed us as ‘Remoaners’






    We are starting to see British businesses crumble as a result of Brexit. Now I want an apology from Piers Morgan, from Nick Ferrari, from Julia Hartley-Brewer, from Andrew Pierce and from every journalist and politician who called people “Remoaners” for questioning Brexit over the past four years.

    For it was they who made a joke out of the suffering people are now experiencing. Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps even shared a giggle when asked about the deal in December.

    I don’t want them to apologise to me. Brexit was never going to hurt me. During the four years I campaigned to stop it, I was never speaking for myself. I was speaking for people who did not have a platform like mine. The fisheries workers who drove their lorries to Westminster because Brexit red tape was crippling their exports; the small businesses which simply cannot afford the extra bureaucracy and tariffs; the people in Northern Ireland seeing scarily familiar tensions bubble to the surface.

    These people did not have hundreds of thousands of social media followers. They didn’t have radio stations, TV panel shows, or columns in national newspapers. Their views could only be amplified through other people’s voices.

    And how did Brexiteer journalists and politicians respond to those voices? They called us “Remoaners”, “Remainiacs” and “sore losers”. They spent four years using their platforms to ridicule and degrade us as we desperately advocated against the suffering that ordinary people are starting to experience right now. When Morgan and Hartley-Brewer were making fun of me, they were really making fun of them.

    I’m talking about Tim Heard, who had been catching shellfish for 50 years but whose income has completely stopped since January. On Saturday, I used my voice on his behalf when speaking to former Brexit Party MEP Alex Phillips on Talk Radio. I relayed Heard’s words: “There are people here that have turned to drink because of the strength of this.” Not only did the presenter try to make a joke about it, but Phillips was grinning from ear to ear. So even with the damage now ruining people’s lives, the politicians who told us Brexit would save the fishing industry still think it’s all a game.

    The Road Haulage Association noted a 68 per cent drop in exports to the EU since January, and it’s mainly small businesses struggling with the extra costs. So I’d love it if Piers Morgan would apologise to Danny Hodgson for telling me “all Remoaners are demented” in 2019. Danny founded Rivet & Hide, a men’s retailer, and his sales have almost halved since January.

    Or maybe Julia Hartley-Brewer could apologise to Emily Blendell (Bluebella, lingerie company) or Richard Staite (Shiner, sporting goods). Hartley-Brewer called Labour MEP Tulip Siddiq an “insane Remoaner” for delaying her C-section to attend a Brexit vote. Siddiq did so to make sure Richard and Emily wouldn’t have to move part of their business across the Channel.

    But I doubt we’ll hear any apology from Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Michael Gove, or David Davis, all of whom promised Brexit wouldn’t create any barriers to EU trade and accused those suggesting otherwise of promoting “Project Fear”.

    As for Northern Ireland, former Labour MP Kate Hoey accused Labour peer Peter Hain of “scaremongering” for suggesting Brexit would threaten peace. Since January, she has been warning about sectarian violence as a result of Brexit. It would be nice if she could apologise to the people of Northern Ireland.

    These politicians and journalists watched millions scream in panic for four years, terrified about the damage we’re only now starting to see. But they went out of their way to insult them on a daily basis.

    These big Brexiteers will never show regret, but is a little compassion too much to ask for? They know the majority voted for parties committed to avoiding this in 2019 and they can see businesses and lives being ruined. But I haven’t heard a single sorry – so I’m demanding one now.

    Read More

    ‘Generation Covid’ – the pandemic has made young people like me more political

    Is it too difficult to come up with a positive solution for Northern Ireland?

    Tory MP ridiculed for saying 'Remoaner' plot to derail Brexit is behind Priti Patel and Boris Johnson criticism

    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/now-seeing-impact-brexit-time-130936769.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    European Commission slams Britain for 'breaching international law AGAIN' by 'violating Brexit deal' to extend Irish border grace period until October



    The European Commission's vice president Maros Sefcovic accused the UK of breaching international law for a second time after the government's Irish intervention.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9322751/EU-slams-Britain-breaching-international-law-extending-Irish-border-grace-period.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,884
    Brussels accuses UK of ‘violating’ Brexit deal and threatens legal action


    Brussels has pledged legal action after ministers announced plans to unilaterally change a part of the Northern Ireland Brexit deal to better suit British businesses.

    The move would extend a ‘grace period’ designed to allow UK supermarkets and suppliers time to adapt to new trade barriers across the Irish Sea.

    But Maros Sefcovic, vice president of the European Commission, said that would be a “violation” of the protocol agreed with the UK.


    He also warned it would be the “second time that the UK government is set to breach international law”, following a similar row last year.

    In a statement the European Commission said Sefcovic would inform Lord Frost, the minister who helped negotiate the Brexit deal, that it would “respond to these developments in accordance with the legal means established by the Withdrawal Agreement and the Trade and Cooperation Agreement.”

    It added that the EU had “strong concerns over the UK’s unilateral action, as this amounts to a violation of the relevant substantive provisions of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland and the good faith obligation under the Withdrawal Agreement.

    “This is the second time that the UK government is set to breach international law

    “This also constitutes a clear departure from the constructive approach that has prevailed up until now, thereby undermining … the mutual trust necessary for solution-oriented cooperation.”

    The grace period – a temporary relaxation of checks – had been due to expire at the end of this month.

    At that point supermarkets in Northern Ireland, which have struggled with supply problems since the government’s Brexit deal came into force on 1 January, had expected to see their woes worsen.

    But Northern Ireland secretary Brandon Lewis said the government would be “taking several temporary operational steps to avoid disruptive cliff-edges as engagement with the EU continues through the Joint Committee”.

    Controversially he announced the new grace period would continue until at least 1 October.

    Ministers had asked the EU to extend the grace period until 2023, but Brussels had declined to do so so far.

    Like Brussels, the Irish government has also criticised the UK government’s plans, branding them “deeply unhelpful”.

    Irish foreign affairs minister Simon Coveney said unilaterally continuing the grace period undermined the UK’s commitment to the protocol.

    He said: “A unilateral announcement is deeply unhelpful to building the relationship of trust and partnership that is central to the implementation of the protocol.”

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/brussels-accuses-uk-of-violating-brexit-deal-and-threatens-legal-action/ar-BB1ecVa4?ocid=msedgntp
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