Irish PM does not expect Northern Ireland breakthrough in September
The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) collapsed the devolved executive 17 months ago in protest at Britain's first post-Brexit agreement with the EU and then rejected a fresh deal struck in February to end many of the new trade checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
The DUP, the UK-run region's biggest pro-British political party, said last week that there had been no meaningful action from the British government on its demand for further measures to protect trade between Northern Ireland and Britain.
Unlike the rest of the UK since Brexit, Northern Ireland has effectively remained in the EU's single market to keep its land border with Ireland open, a major aspect of the 1998 Good Friday peace deal that ended decades of sectarian bloodshed.
Varadkar said Dublin has repeatedly received assurances from London that any such move would not result in changes to the revised EU-UK trade deal or undermine the Good Friday Agreement.
Nat West Boss has done the right thing over her misjudgement about Farage.
When will Farage do the right thing about his own misjudgement of Brexit?
Not sure what he could do. What could he resign from? He has admitted that it has worked out badly. Although he blames Boris rather than Brexit.
Well what would be the “honourable thing” to do?
I am sure the Japanese would know.
Or just an apology for the huge mistake would go a long way.
An apology is beyond him.
Agreed. He now wants to wreck the banks.
What an egotistical pariah.
'I'm Sick To Death Of Your Tone': Nigel Farage Erupts At Nick Robinson Over Election Jibe
Nick Robinson insisted he was only "teasing" Nigel Farage.
Nigel Farage lost his temper after the BBC’s Nick Robinson mocked his repeated failure to become an MP.
The Today programme presenter told the former Ukip leader: “You’ve run seven times and lost seven times.”
That prompted Farage to hit back: “I’m sick to death of your condescending tone.”
The pair clashed following the resignation of NatWest chief executive Dame Alison Rose in the wake of the row over Coutts bank’s decision to cancel Farage’s account with them.
Still. For pity's sake let it go. Turns out decimalisation wasn't particularly good actually.
Tell you what let's go back to Pounds, Shillings, Pence, Farthings, Guineas and Sovereigns.
Let's keep, miles, Acres, furlongs, yards, feet and inches. Bring back Bushells, cubits, gallons, pints, fathoms, leagues.
The reason it isn't going well is that those opposed to it are not just Shutting TFU and getting on with life and will wreck the country just to say I told you so.
Still. For pity's sake let it go. Turns out decimalisation wasn't particularly good actually.
Tell you what let's go back to Pounds, Shillings, Pence, Farthings, Guineas and Sovereigns.
Let's keep, miles, Acres, furlongs, yards, feet and inches. Bring back Bushells, cubits, gallons, pints, fathoms, leagues.
The reason it isn't going well is that those opposed to it are not just Shutting TFU and getting on with life and will wreck the country just to say I told you so.
Definitive answer soon from Government on Windsor Framework concerns – Donaldson
However, the DUP has insisted the new accord does not go far enough to address its concerns around sovereignty and the application of EU law in Northern Ireland and the party is maintaining its blockade of Stormont until it receives further assurances from the UK Government.
Ms O’Neill said the DUP and the UK Government were engaging in a game of “chicken”.
She said: “There were four parties in that meeting today, three of which are ready to form an executive and have been for some time.
“The real question is are the DUP prepared to share power with the rest of us, deliver good public services, fight for workers and families right now who are dealing with the cost-of-living crisis.”
She added: “I would say that I don’t share the Secretary of State’s very optimistic overly optimistic assessment last week (about the return of Stormont this autumn), I don’t think there is any evidence to back that up.
“I hope that changes, I hope we do have a reformed executive, but I don’t think anybody was sitting in that meeting today under any illusions that anything had changed in terms of the DUP and the British Government’s game of chicken.”
Still. For pity's sake let it go. Turns out decimalisation wasn't particularly good actually.
Tell you what let's go back to Pounds, Shillings, Pence, Farthings, Guineas and Sovereigns.
Let's keep, miles, Acres, furlongs, yards, feet and inches. Bring back Bushells, cubits, gallons, pints, fathoms, leagues.
The reason it isn't going well is that those opposed to it are not just Shutting TFU and getting on with life and will wreck the country just to say I told you so.
The fact that an increasing number of people are prepared to admit that leaving was a mistake seems to be cropping up more frequently. Both the main parties are reluctant to address the problem. Although I think that one of them will have to at some point.
Both the main parties are whinging about the lack of growth, and the experts will say that leaving reduced our GDP by 4%. Some improvements could be made without getting drastic. Surely our politicians have an obligation to address the problems that leaving has created.
A major problem that doesnt seem to be going away anytime soon, is the NI border. The Unionists will never be happy with the sea border, and there doesnt seem to be a feasible alternative. Stormont is unlikely to be up and running in the near future.
I agree with a lot of that. My main point, badly made, was that instead of whining about the situation and using it as an instrument to prove a point, the people who are in charge of running the country should be doing just that.
In fact let's be honest if those responsible had had the wherewithall to have furnished Joe Public with the truth rather than sensationalising things, perhaps a more considered opinion would have materialised at the ballot box.
Did I vote to leave YES. Do I think that some of the issues were not properly presented YES. Do I consider that maybe with detailed and concise analysis I may have considered the opposite PROBABLY. Do I think that we should beg the EU to re admit us ABSOLUTELY NOT. Any deal that allowed for our joining would impact us more negatively than the status quo.
We're here, we're out, get used to it.
Yes, I'm not surprised you seemingly have some regrets about voting for national suicide.
Now think how us 'remainers' feel. Didn't vote for it. Stuck with it. Having to read/hear about people regretting their decision to vote to leave. Maybe those people should have given it a bit more thought.
The Brexit voters did not get Brexit they got and still have " Remainer " Government with Non elected Leader just like Van der Lying...... so nothing has changed we all getting poorer just as before. Hic !
Still. For pity's sake let it go. Turns out decimalisation wasn't particularly good actually.
Tell you what let's go back to Pounds, Shillings, Pence, Farthings, Guineas and Sovereigns.
Let's keep, miles, Acres, furlongs, yards, feet and inches. Bring back Bushells, cubits, gallons, pints, fathoms, leagues.
The reason it isn't going well is that those opposed to it are not just Shutting TFU and getting on with life and will wreck the country just to say I told you so.
The fact that an increasing number of people are prepared to admit that leaving was a mistake seems to be cropping up more frequently. Both the main parties are reluctant to address the problem. Although I think that one of them will have to at some point.
Both the main parties are whinging about the lack of growth, and the experts will say that leaving reduced our GDP by 4%. Some improvements could be made without getting drastic. Surely our politicians have an obligation to address the problems that leaving has created.
A major problem that doesnt seem to be going away anytime soon, is the NI border. The Unionists will never be happy with the sea border, and there doesnt seem to be a feasible alternative. Stormont is unlikely to be up and running in the near future.
I agree with a lot of that. My main point, badly made, was that instead of whining about the situation and using it as an instrument to prove a point, the people who are in charge of running the country should be doing just that.
In fact let's be honest if those responsible had had the wherewithall to have furnished Joe Public with the truth rather than sensationalising things, perhaps a more considered opinion would have materialised at the ballot box.
Did I vote to leave YES. Do I think that some of the issues were not properly presented YES. Do I consider that maybe with detailed and concise analysis I may have considered the opposite PROBABLY. Do I think that we should beg the EU to re admit us ABSOLUTELY NOT. Any deal that allowed for our joining would impact us more negatively than the status quo.
We're here, we're out, get used to it.
Yes, I'm not surprised you seemingly have some regrets about voting for national suicide.
Now think how us 'remainers' feel. Didn't vote for it. Stuck with it. Having to read/hear about people regretting their decision to vote to leave. Maybe those people should have given it a bit more thought.
Too late now; you won, get over it.
A lot of people feel that way.
Personally, I feel differently.
The "didn't vote for it. Stuck with it." Definitely.
But it is not (IMHO) that people who voted "should have given it a bit more thought." It was the Remain campaign that was primarily to blame-it was terrible.
The "Leave" campaign was in many respects brilliant-if it is judged by success rather than truth. Take the phrase "Leave Means Leave". In its way, brilliant-hiding the fact that there were hundreds of different ways of leaving, and the campaign pretended that it was all simple.
People believed it was "oven ready". That it would be simple. That there was no downside. There would be no economic consequences. There was no land border in Northern Ireland.
And nothing got challenged. Everyone was too busy talking about what was on the side of a bus. Rather than the actual issues in relation to why we should/should not leave, and what the actual plan going forward really was.
The then-PM, Cameron, stood by and did nothing. Same for Corbyn. With the single exception of a late effort by Gordon Brown, the Remain campaign was pathetic.
I don't blame the Leavers. I blame the people who were supposed to be organising the Remain campaign.
Still. For pity's sake let it go. Turns out decimalisation wasn't particularly good actually.
Tell you what let's go back to Pounds, Shillings, Pence, Farthings, Guineas and Sovereigns.
Let's keep, miles, Acres, furlongs, yards, feet and inches. Bring back Bushells, cubits, gallons, pints, fathoms, leagues.
The reason it isn't going well is that those opposed to it are not just Shutting TFU and getting on with life and will wreck the country just to say I told you so.
The fact that an increasing number of people are prepared to admit that leaving was a mistake seems to be cropping up more frequently. Both the main parties are reluctant to address the problem. Although I think that one of them will have to at some point.
Both the main parties are whinging about the lack of growth, and the experts will say that leaving reduced our GDP by 4%. Some improvements could be made without getting drastic. Surely our politicians have an obligation to address the problems that leaving has created.
A major problem that doesnt seem to be going away anytime soon, is the NI border. The Unionists will never be happy with the sea border, and there doesnt seem to be a feasible alternative. Stormont is unlikely to be up and running in the near future.
I agree with a lot of that. My main point, badly made, was that instead of whining about the situation and using it as an instrument to prove a point, the people who are in charge of running the country should be doing just that.
In fact let's be honest if those responsible had had the wherewithall to have furnished Joe Public with the truth rather than sensationalising things, perhaps a more considered opinion would have materialised at the ballot box.
Did I vote to leave YES. Do I think that some of the issues were not properly presented YES. Do I consider that maybe with detailed and concise analysis I may have considered the opposite PROBABLY. Do I think that we should beg the EU to re admit us ABSOLUTELY NOT. Any deal that allowed for our joining would impact us more negatively than the status quo.
We're here, we're out, get used to it.
Yes, I'm not surprised you seemingly have some regrets about voting for national suicide.
Now think how us 'remainers' feel. Didn't vote for it. Stuck with it. Having to read/hear about people regretting their decision to vote to leave. Maybe those people should have given it a bit more thought.
Too late now; you won, get over it.
A lot of people feel that way.
Personally, I feel differently.
The "didn't vote for it. Stuck with it." Definitely.
But it is not (IMHO) that people who voted "should have given it a bit more thought." It was the Remain campaign that was primarily to blame-it was terrible.
The "Leave" campaign was in many respects brilliant-if it is judged by success rather than truth. Take the phrase "Leave Means Leave". In its way, brilliant-hiding the fact that there were hundreds of different ways of leaving, and the campaign pretended that it was all simple.
People believed it was "oven ready". That it would be simple. That there was no downside. There would be no economic consequences. There was no land border in Northern Ireland.
And nothing got challenged. Everyone was too busy talking about what was on the side of a bus. Rather than the actual issues in relation to why we should/should not leave, and what the actual plan going forward really was.
The then-PM, Cameron, stood by and did nothing. Same for Corbyn. With the single exception of a late effort by Gordon Brown, the Remain campaign was pathetic.
I don't blame the Leavers. I blame the people who were supposed to be organising the Remain campaign.
I think the leave campaign was brilliant. Dominic Cummings deserves great credit for organising it. I believe the lies were more down to Boris and Gove than him. He was able to dig up those in the forgotten parts of the UK, that felt that they were being ignored, and got them to vote. There is a funny bit in the tv drama, where Bernard Jenkin goes into a meeting, where he intends to fire Cummings, and leaves having been sacked himself. I dont know if this was accurate, but it was believable for me. Cummings probably changed political campaigning forever. If the remain side had got him, we would be still in. I agree that the remain campaign was shocking. We have discovered lots of pitfalls since leaving, that never figured in the campaign.
I am not going to repeat myself, because I have covered bits of this before. It will be disappointing if Brexit leads to the break up of the UK. A majority for Scottish Independence was less likely if we were still in. Its difficult to see Stormont getting up an running again while the NI sea border is in place, and there appears to be no realistic alternative. Any growth in the economy becomes difficult if leaving has reduced our GDP by 4%. Divergence will make trade more difficult in the long term, rather than easier.
However, I think the problem is impossible to ignore in the long term. It has been easy to see why both the major parties have been reluctant to mention it, this will surely have to change, as the majority in favour of re-joining grows.
Boris sold the situation in NI, as them having the best of both worlds. You would think that if this is the case, that it would follow that it would be better for the whole of the UK to have the best of both worlds. If the whole of the UK was in the CU/SM, then it would reduce the numbers in favour of Scottish Independence, remove the Irish border, probably secure the future of the UK as is, and give us some immediate growth.
Just ignoring the problem is never going to be a solution.
Still. For pity's sake let it go. Turns out decimalisation wasn't particularly good actually.
Tell you what let's go back to Pounds, Shillings, Pence, Farthings, Guineas and Sovereigns.
Let's keep, miles, Acres, furlongs, yards, feet and inches. Bring back Bushells, cubits, gallons, pints, fathoms, leagues.
The reason it isn't going well is that those opposed to it are not just Shutting TFU and getting on with life and will wreck the country just to say I told you so.
The fact that an increasing number of people are prepared to admit that leaving was a mistake seems to be cropping up more frequently. Both the main parties are reluctant to address the problem. Although I think that one of them will have to at some point.
Both the main parties are whinging about the lack of growth, and the experts will say that leaving reduced our GDP by 4%. Some improvements could be made without getting drastic. Surely our politicians have an obligation to address the problems that leaving has created.
A major problem that doesnt seem to be going away anytime soon, is the NI border. The Unionists will never be happy with the sea border, and there doesnt seem to be a feasible alternative. Stormont is unlikely to be up and running in the near future.
I agree with a lot of that. My main point, badly made, was that instead of whining about the situation and using it as an instrument to prove a point, the people who are in charge of running the country should be doing just that.
In fact let's be honest if those responsible had had the wherewithall to have furnished Joe Public with the truth rather than sensationalising things, perhaps a more considered opinion would have materialised at the ballot box.
Did I vote to leave YES. Do I think that some of the issues were not properly presented YES. Do I consider that maybe with detailed and concise analysis I may have considered the opposite PROBABLY. Do I think that we should beg the EU to re admit us ABSOLUTELY NOT. Any deal that allowed for our joining would impact us more negatively than the status quo.
We're here, we're out, get used to it.
Yes, I'm not surprised you seemingly have some regrets about voting for national suicide.
Now think how us 'remainers' feel. Didn't vote for it. Stuck with it. Having to read/hear about people regretting their decision to vote to leave. Maybe those people should have given it a bit more thought.
Too late now; you won, get over it.
A lot of people feel that way.
Personally, I feel differently.
The "didn't vote for it. Stuck with it." Definitely.
But it is not (IMHO) that people who voted "should have given it a bit more thought." It was the Remain campaign that was primarily to blame-it was terrible.
The "Leave" campaign was in many respects brilliant-if it is judged by success rather than truth. Take the phrase "Leave Means Leave". In its way, brilliant-hiding the fact that there were hundreds of different ways of leaving, and the campaign pretended that it was all simple.
People believed it was "oven ready". That it would be simple. That there was no downside. There would be no economic consequences. There was no land border in Northern Ireland.
And nothing got challenged. Everyone was too busy talking about what was on the side of a bus. Rather than the actual issues in relation to why we should/should not leave, and what the actual plan going forward really was.
The then-PM, Cameron, stood by and did nothing. Same for Corbyn. With the single exception of a late effort by Gordon Brown, the Remain campaign was pathetic.
I don't blame the Leavers. I blame the people who were supposed to be organising the Remain campaign.
I don't disagree with large parts of that. The leave campaign was, at best, underwhelming. Probably a lot of complacency in that too.
I've said it before and I'll say it again....it was way, way too important a decision to throw out to the public. Because the general public are full of idiots, who swallow the lies fed to them without questioning anything or using any logic or rational thinking.
Hence we ended up with Brexit; a campaign built on lies that unfortunately worked a treat in pandering to that idiotic audience. Put a slogan on a bus and they will believe anything.
Some of the people who voted leave have seen sense, with every recent (as in the last few years) poll suggesting 'remain' would be a clear victory in a new referendum.
It's a shame it's taken this disaster for people to realise their error, but here we are.
I have no idea what the solution is, but our lives are collectively a lot poorer by being out of the EU.
Didn't quote your last comment, as that thread (not your latest comment) is getting insanely long.
Presume you mean the "Remain" campaign rather than Leave. Totally agree it was underwhelming and complacent bordering on smug.
Similarly, agree that the Public should not decide every last detail. As an example, we would have had Capital Punishment remaining from 1965 to about 2000.
But the great British public have a penchant for wanting what they haven't got. For example, it is exactly as stupid for the majority to say we should go back in, without knowing the price for so doing. Simply because the rules are different for new members.
Before we can make an informed decision, we would need to know the cost. For example:-
1. Would the EU agree? 2. Would we have to join the Euro and abandon our currency? 3. Would we have to join Schengen-it is far more difficult for an island to agree to that 4. Would we have to agree to gradually allow our Armed Forces to be subsumed into a European Army? 5. How much would we have to pay?
I don't know the answers to those questions. But, without them, agreeing to rejoin the EU would be exactly as dim as the way we left.
Like you, I have no idea what the solution will prove to be. I suspect it will be a rebranded and repackaged membership of the Single Market, which pretends it isn't that, via some sort of "Trade Deal".
We are not necessarily poorer by not being in the EU. But we are undoubtedly poorer by not being in the Single Market.
One additional thing that irks is that some of the more sensible leave voters I know did not vote to leave the single market. Nor did they think that if the referendum result was a narrow win for leave, the UK would just go for it all-in (or all-out I suppose). Its absolutely crazy that just over 50% of voters wanted to leave and we just went for it.
UK Brexit checks on fresh food from EU delayed for fifth time, reports say
Exporters from the EU have not had to endure the paperwork after the British government failed to build new SPS systems or secure land for SPS parks to conduct random physical checks.
The Brexit cliff-edge in 2021 left British exporters of fish and other fresh goods in chaos with a lack of customs agents and veterinary staff to certify whether the produce complied with EU standards.
But in the UK Brexit checks were pushed back in 2020, on two occasions in 2021 and then again last year by the then Brexit opportunities minister, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
In April the government announced the checks would finally be phased in from 31 October, with further checks implemented in 2023 and 2024.
The checks in October were to involve paperwork known as “pre-certification” that would alert authorities to the arrival of food products with public health compliance requirements.
It is expected these checks will now be pushed back to the end of January when the physical SPS checks are due to become operational.
Government insiders told the FT that further details of the rules applying to food imports would be published “very soon” but the introduction would be pushed back.
“The driving force behind this is the need to bear down on inflation, that’s why there will be a delay. There will be additional costs at the border,” the FT said, quoting its sources.
One additional thing that irks is that some of the more sensible leave voters I know did not vote to leave the single market. Nor did they think that if the referendum result was a narrow win for leave, the UK would just go for it all-in (or all-out I suppose). Its absolutely crazy that just over 50% of voters wanted to leave and we just went for it.
One of the problems with the referendum was that you had to vote to leave or remain. There were too many permutations to vote on the detail. The percentage of people that wish we hadnt left seems to be growing. Although, as @Essexphil said we are unaware of the terms and conditions that would apply to us re-joining. I think it would be safe to say that we would be unable to match the deal we had before. Both the main parties seem reluctant to even discuss it, as taking a view will alienate some of their voters. I agree with the comments about something this important shouldnt have been left to the general public. Although I think that a second referendum may be more valid, as the majority of voters would have at least lived through the experience of being in and out. They surely have to talk about it sometime soon.
One additional thing that irks is that some of the more sensible leave voters I know did not vote to leave the single market. Nor did they think that if the referendum result was a narrow win for leave, the UK would just go for it all-in (or all-out I suppose). Its absolutely crazy that just over 50% of voters wanted to leave and we just went for it.
One of the problems with the referendum was that you had to vote to leave or remain. There were too many permutations to vote on the detail. The percentage of people that wish we hadnt left seems to be growing. Although, as @Essexphil said we are unaware of the terms and conditions that would apply to us re-joining. I think it would be safe to say that we would be unable to match the deal we had before. Both the main parties seem reluctant to even discuss it, as taking a view will alienate some of their voters. I agree with the comments about something this important shouldnt have been left to the general public. Although I think that a second referendum may be more valid, as the majority of voters would have at least lived through the experience of being in and out. They surely have to talk about it sometime soon.
People who believe the grass is greener on the other side remains high
I disagree that a 3rd referendum would be more valid on that basis. People had the benefit of 43 years' membership of the EU before choosing to leave, as opposed to the 7 years or less of being out.
The current Government are totally unable to reopen this can of worms. That would just lead to the Rabid Right in the Nasty Party being able to bang the drum for their mythical Little Englander dreamland. The only way that Party can open discussions in a positive way is once various people are no longer part of politics-Johnson, Farage, JRM etc
Labour are unable to open any discussions before the next election. Even then, there are going to be massive problems in owning up to that. Similarly, the EU have to tread a fine line between a good deal for people who want to export to the UK, and ensuring that countries could not get as good a deal without being Members or formally in the Single Market.
My guess (and it is no more than that) is that in the latter part of the 2020s there will be a deal whereby non-perishables (pretty much everything bar food) will be tariff free via a trade deal. While food (which always gets a disproportionate amount of headlines in such things) retains various barriers.
Simply because the UK is the most valuable export market outside the EU for many of the wealthier EU nations
Didn't quote your last comment, as that thread (not your latest comment) is getting insanely long.
Presume you mean the "Remain" campaign rather than Leave. Totally agree it was underwhelming and complacent bordering on smug.
Similarly, agree that the Public should not decide every last detail. As an example, we would have had Capital Punishment remaining from 1965 to about 2000.
But the great British public have a penchant for wanting what they haven't got. For example, it is exactly as stupid for the majority to say we should go back in, without knowing the price for so doing. Simply because the rules are different for new members.
Before we can make an informed decision, we would need to know the cost. For example:-
1. Would the EU agree? 2. Would we have to join the Euro and abandon our currency? 3. Would we have to join Schengen-it is far more difficult for an island to agree to that 4. Would we have to agree to gradually allow our Armed Forces to be subsumed into a European Army? 5. How much would we have to pay?
I don't know the answers to those questions. But, without them, agreeing to rejoin the EU would be exactly as dim as the way we left.
Like you, I have no idea what the solution will prove to be. I suspect it will be a rebranded and repackaged membership of the Single Market, which pretends it isn't that, via some sort of "Trade Deal".
We are not necessarily poorer by not being in the EU. But we are undoubtedly poorer by not being in the Single Market.
Why reversing Brexit and rejoining the EU could take a decade and cost the UK an extra £5.6bn a year
Most British people now want the UK to rejoin Europe, polls suggest. But the process would be fraught, take years and, according to EU rules, would mean sacrificing the pound
Support for rejoining the EU has been growing in recent weeks amid economic turmoil in the UK.
YouGov’s Brexit tracker last month found that 58.2 per cent of British people would now vote to rejoin – among the highest levels recorded since the 2016 referendum vote to Leave. It is an issue that most leading Westminster politicians have handled with all the enthusiasm they would muster for an unexploded bomb.
“The longer we leave it the more complicated accession is because the more we diverge and the EU will have changed,” says Professor Anand Menon, director of the UK In A Changing Europe think-tank.
One additional thing that irks is that some of the more sensible leave voters I know did not vote to leave the single market. Nor did they think that if the referendum result was a narrow win for leave, the UK would just go for it all-in (or all-out I suppose). Its absolutely crazy that just over 50% of voters wanted to leave and we just went for it.
One of the problems with the referendum was that you had to vote to leave or remain. There were too many permutations to vote on the detail. The percentage of people that wish we hadnt left seems to be growing. Although, as @Essexphil said we are unaware of the terms and conditions that would apply to us re-joining. I think it would be safe to say that we would be unable to match the deal we had before. Both the main parties seem reluctant to even discuss it, as taking a view will alienate some of their voters. I agree with the comments about something this important shouldnt have been left to the general public. Although I think that a second referendum may be more valid, as the majority of voters would have at least lived through the experience of being in and out. They surely have to talk about it sometime soon.
People who believe the grass is greener on the other side remains high
The reality is completely different from the promises that were made. Hence the latest polling figures. Also people who always believe that the grass is greener on the other side surely now believe that we should re-join.
I disagree that a 3rd referendum would be more valid on that basis. People had the benefit of 43 years' membership of the EU before choosing to leave, as opposed to the 7 years or less of being out.
Yes but those people had no experience of being out. They now have the experience of being in and out, and the reality of the actual benefits of being out. Even the xenophobes must be really disappointed with the immigration figures since leaving, despite the end of freedom of movement.
The current Government are totally unable to reopen this can of worms. That would just lead to the Rabid Right in the Nasty Party being able to bang the drum for their mythical Little Englander dreamland. The only way that Party can open discussions in a positive way is once various people are no longer part of politics-Johnson, Farage, JRM etc
I suppose the only hope that this may change is if the Tories are decimated at the next general election. Or a coalition government involving the Lib Dems.
Labour are unable to open any discussions before the next election. Even then, there are going to be massive problems in owning up to that. Similarly, the EU have to tread a fine line between a good deal for people who want to export to the UK, and ensuring that countries could not get as good a deal without being Members or formally in the Single Market.
Keir Starmer used to be in favour of another referendum. I dont suppose any government can ignore a growing majority for ever. If this majority continues to grow, the issue is likely to figure in the 2029 general election.
My guess (and it is no more than that) is that in the latter part of the 2020s there will be a deal whereby non-perishables (pretty much everything bar food) will be tariff free via a trade deal. While food (which always gets a disproportionate amount of headlines in such things) retains various barriers.
I wouldnt disagree with that timing. I am not sure of what sort of deal. In the meantime, diverging will create more trade friction. Stormont may vote against the protocol, if they ever get up and running. What is the alternative? The Unionists seem unlikely to ever accept the border. More food prices will increase when all the grace periods eventually end. Being members of the SM/CU would remove the border, remove trade friction, and create growth.
Simply because the UK is the most valuable export market outside the EU for many of the wealthier EU nations
I am not sure how big the majority would be in respect of re-joining if we had to lose the £, or even if there would be a majority. I would be fine with that, but many wouldnt.
Comments
The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) collapsed the devolved executive 17 months ago in protest at Britain's first post-Brexit agreement with the EU and then rejected a fresh deal struck in February to end many of the new trade checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
The DUP, the UK-run region's biggest pro-British political party, said last week that there had been no meaningful action from the British government on its demand for further measures to protect trade between Northern Ireland and Britain.
Unlike the rest of the UK since Brexit, Northern Ireland has effectively remained in the EU's single market to keep its land border with Ireland open, a major aspect of the 1998 Good Friday peace deal that ended decades of sectarian bloodshed.
Varadkar said Dublin has repeatedly received assurances from London that any such move would not result in changes to the revised EU-UK trade deal or undermine the Good Friday Agreement.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/irish-pm-does-not-expect-northern-ireland-breakthrough-in-september/ar-AA1elQ95?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=008a17daeaf549c09cead19630ab4d93&ei=44
Nick Robinson insisted he was only "teasing" Nigel Farage.
Nigel Farage lost his temper after the BBC’s Nick Robinson mocked his repeated failure to become an MP.
The Today programme presenter told the former Ukip leader: “You’ve run seven times and lost seven times.”
That prompted Farage to hit back: “I’m sick to death of your condescending tone.”
The pair clashed following the resignation of NatWest chief executive Dame Alison Rose in the wake of the row over Coutts bank’s decision to cancel Farage’s account with them.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/im-sick-death-tone-nigel-082459829.html
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/uk-will-return-to-eu-in-future-says-tony-blair/ar-AA1eqW5S?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=34c31d9d4eee488c9401086327f62649&ei=117
However, the DUP has insisted the new accord does not go far enough to address its concerns around sovereignty and the application of EU law in Northern Ireland and the party is maintaining its blockade of Stormont until it receives further assurances from the UK Government.
Ms O’Neill said the DUP and the UK Government were engaging in a game of “chicken”.
She said: “There were four parties in that meeting today, three of which are ready to form an executive and have been for some time.
“The real question is are the DUP prepared to share power with the rest of us, deliver good public services, fight for workers and families right now who are dealing with the cost-of-living crisis.”
She added: “I would say that I don’t share the Secretary of State’s very optimistic overly optimistic assessment last week (about the return of Stormont this autumn), I don’t think there is any evidence to back that up.
“I hope that changes, I hope we do have a reformed executive, but I don’t think anybody was sitting in that meeting today under any illusions that anything had changed in terms of the DUP and the British Government’s game of chicken.”
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/definitive-answer-soon-government-windsor-124545535.html
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/brexit-red-tape-illusion-exposed-153101099.html
Now think how us 'remainers' feel.
Didn't vote for it.
Stuck with it.
Having to read/hear about people regretting their decision to vote to leave.
Maybe those people should have given it a bit more thought.
Too late now; you won, get over it.
Personally, I feel differently.
The "didn't vote for it. Stuck with it." Definitely.
But it is not (IMHO) that people who voted "should have given it a bit more thought." It was the Remain campaign that was primarily to blame-it was terrible.
The "Leave" campaign was in many respects brilliant-if it is judged by success rather than truth. Take the phrase "Leave Means Leave". In its way, brilliant-hiding the fact that there were hundreds of different ways of leaving, and the campaign pretended that it was all simple.
People believed it was "oven ready". That it would be simple. That there was no downside. There would be no economic consequences. There was no land border in Northern Ireland.
And nothing got challenged. Everyone was too busy talking about what was on the side of a bus. Rather than the actual issues in relation to why we should/should not leave, and what the actual plan going forward really was.
The then-PM, Cameron, stood by and did nothing. Same for Corbyn. With the single exception of a late effort by Gordon Brown, the Remain campaign was pathetic.
I don't blame the Leavers. I blame the people who were supposed to be organising the Remain campaign.
Dominic Cummings deserves great credit for organising it.
I believe the lies were more down to Boris and Gove than him.
He was able to dig up those in the forgotten parts of the UK, that felt that they were being ignored, and got them to vote.
There is a funny bit in the tv drama, where Bernard Jenkin goes into a meeting, where he intends to fire Cummings, and leaves having been sacked himself.
I dont know if this was accurate, but it was believable for me.
Cummings probably changed political campaigning forever.
If the remain side had got him, we would be still in.
I agree that the remain campaign was shocking.
We have discovered lots of pitfalls since leaving, that never figured in the campaign.
I am not going to repeat myself, because I have covered bits of this before.
It will be disappointing if Brexit leads to the break up of the UK.
A majority for Scottish Independence was less likely if we were still in.
Its difficult to see Stormont getting up an running again while the NI sea border is in place, and there appears to be no realistic alternative.
Any growth in the economy becomes difficult if leaving has reduced our GDP by 4%.
Divergence will make trade more difficult in the long term, rather than easier.
However, I think the problem is impossible to ignore in the long term.
It has been easy to see why both the major parties have been reluctant to mention it, this will surely have to change, as the majority in favour of re-joining grows.
Boris sold the situation in NI, as them having the best of both worlds.
You would think that if this is the case, that it would follow that it would be better for the whole of the UK to have the best of both worlds.
If the whole of the UK was in the CU/SM, then it would reduce the numbers in favour of Scottish Independence, remove the Irish border, probably secure the future of the UK as is, and give us some immediate growth.
Just ignoring the problem is never going to be a solution.
The leave campaign was, at best, underwhelming.
Probably a lot of complacency in that too.
I've said it before and I'll say it again....it was way, way too important a decision to throw out to the public.
Because the general public are full of idiots, who swallow the lies fed to them without questioning anything or using any logic or rational thinking.
Hence we ended up with Brexit; a campaign built on lies that unfortunately worked a treat in pandering to that idiotic audience.
Put a slogan on a bus and they will believe anything.
Some of the people who voted leave have seen sense, with every recent (as in the last few years) poll suggesting 'remain' would be a clear victory in a new referendum.
It's a shame it's taken this disaster for people to realise their error, but here we are.
I have no idea what the solution is, but our lives are collectively a lot poorer by being out of the EU.
Presume you mean the "Remain" campaign rather than Leave. Totally agree it was underwhelming and complacent bordering on smug.
Similarly, agree that the Public should not decide every last detail. As an example, we would have had Capital Punishment remaining from 1965 to about 2000.
But the great British public have a penchant for wanting what they haven't got. For example, it is exactly as stupid for the majority to say we should go back in, without knowing the price for so doing. Simply because the rules are different for new members.
Before we can make an informed decision, we would need to know the cost. For example:-
1. Would the EU agree?
2. Would we have to join the Euro and abandon our currency?
3. Would we have to join Schengen-it is far more difficult for an island to agree to that
4. Would we have to agree to gradually allow our Armed Forces to be subsumed into a European Army?
5. How much would we have to pay?
I don't know the answers to those questions. But, without them, agreeing to rejoin the EU would be exactly as dim as the way we left.
Like you, I have no idea what the solution will prove to be. I suspect it will be a rebranded and repackaged membership of the Single Market, which pretends it isn't that, via some sort of "Trade Deal".
We are not necessarily poorer by not being in the EU. But we are undoubtedly poorer by not being in the Single Market.
One additional thing that irks is that some of the more sensible leave voters I know did not vote to leave the single market. Nor did they think that if the referendum result was a narrow win for leave, the UK would just go for it all-in (or all-out I suppose). Its absolutely crazy that just over 50% of voters wanted to leave and we just went for it.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/unbelievable-brexiteer-stunned-at-cushy-43k-equality-position-in-falkland-islands/ar-AA1eL0B8?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=04d8fa4717e340399059ee6ed3a76fc8&ei=49
Exporters from the EU have not had to endure the paperwork after the British government failed to build new SPS systems or secure land for SPS parks to conduct random physical checks.
The Brexit cliff-edge in 2021 left British exporters of fish and other fresh goods in chaos with a lack of customs agents and veterinary staff to certify whether the produce complied with EU standards.
But in the UK Brexit checks were pushed back in 2020, on two occasions in 2021 and then again last year by the then Brexit opportunities minister, Jacob Rees-Mogg.
In April the government announced the checks would finally be phased in from 31 October, with further checks implemented in 2023 and 2024.
The checks in October were to involve paperwork known as “pre-certification” that would alert authorities to the arrival of food products with public health compliance requirements.
It is expected these checks will now be pushed back to the end of January when the physical SPS checks are due to become operational.
Government insiders told the FT that further details of the rules applying to food imports would be published “very soon” but the introduction would be pushed back.
“The driving force behind this is the need to bear down on inflation, that’s why there will be a delay. There will be additional costs at the border,” the FT said, quoting its sources.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/uk-brexit-checks-on-fresh-food-from-eu-delayed-for-fifth-time-reports-say/ar-AA1eJbUE?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=04d8fa4717e340399059ee6ed3a76fc8&ei=23
There were too many permutations to vote on the detail.
The percentage of people that wish we hadnt left seems to be growing.
Although, as @Essexphil said we are unaware of the terms and conditions that would apply to us re-joining.
I think it would be safe to say that we would be unable to match the deal we had before.
Both the main parties seem reluctant to even discuss it, as taking a view will alienate some of their voters.
I agree with the comments about something this important shouldnt have been left to the general public.
Although I think that a second referendum may be more valid, as the majority of voters would have at least lived through the experience of being in and out.
They surely have to talk about it sometime soon.
I disagree that a 3rd referendum would be more valid on that basis. People had the benefit of 43 years' membership of the EU before choosing to leave, as opposed to the 7 years or less of being out.
The current Government are totally unable to reopen this can of worms. That would just lead to the Rabid Right in the Nasty Party being able to bang the drum for their mythical Little Englander dreamland. The only way that Party can open discussions in a positive way is once various people are no longer part of politics-Johnson, Farage, JRM etc
Labour are unable to open any discussions before the next election. Even then, there are going to be massive problems in owning up to that. Similarly, the EU have to tread a fine line between a good deal for people who want to export to the UK, and ensuring that countries could not get as good a deal without being Members or formally in the Single Market.
My guess (and it is no more than that) is that in the latter part of the 2020s there will be a deal whereby non-perishables (pretty much everything bar food) will be tariff free via a trade deal. While food (which always gets a disproportionate amount of headlines in such things) retains various barriers.
Simply because the UK is the most valuable export market outside the EU for many of the wealthier EU nations
https://fullfact.org/europe/what-was-promised-about-customs-union-referendum/
There is a way to limit Brexit damage – rejoin the single market
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/02/there-is-a-way-to-limit-brexit-damage-rejoin-the-single-market
You have power, Rishi Sunak. Use it. Rejoin the single market and customs union
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/25/rishi-sunak-rejoin-single-market-customs-union-brexit-lies
Letter: Here’s my road map to Britain rejoining the EU
https://www.ft.com/content/28abb11f-d92e-465d-b4f9-24cd892de9bb
Why reversing Brexit and rejoining the EU could take a decade and cost the UK an extra £5.6bn a year
Most British people now want the UK to rejoin Europe, polls suggest. But the process would be fraught, take years and, according to EU rules, would mean sacrificing the pound
Support for rejoining the EU has been growing in recent weeks amid economic turmoil in the UK.
YouGov’s Brexit tracker last month found that 58.2 per cent of British people would now vote to rejoin – among the highest levels recorded since the 2016 referendum vote to Leave.
It is an issue that most leading Westminster politicians have handled with all the enthusiasm they would muster for an unexploded bomb.
“The longer we leave it the more complicated accession is because the more we diverge and the EU will have changed,” says Professor Anand Menon, director of the UK In A Changing Europe think-tank.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/reversing-brexit-rejoining-eu-cost-uk-take-decade-2461234
I would be fine with that, but many wouldnt.
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/brexit-villain-accidental-death-economy-060003145.html