The Conversation In Full.

HAYSIE

Here is the full conversation, as recounted by Ms Fulani:

Lady SH: Where are you from?

Me: Sistah Space.

SH: No, where do you come from?

Me: We're based in Hackney.

SH: No, what part of Africa are you from?

Me: I don't know, they didn't leave any records.

SH: Well, you must know where you're from, I spent time in France. Where are you from?

Me: Here, the UK.

SH: No, but what nationality are you?

Me: I am born here and am British.

SH: No, but where do you really come from, where do your people come from?

Me: 'My people', lady, what is this?

SH: Oh I can see I am going to have a challenge getting you to say where you're from. When did you first come here?

Me: Lady! I am a British national, my parents came here in the 50s when...

SH: Oh, I knew we'd get there in the end, you're Caribbean!

Me: No lady, I am of African heritage, Caribbean descent and British nationality.

SH: Oh so you're from...


Lady Susan Hussey quits over remarks to charity boss Ngozi Fulani



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63810468

Tikay10

Ouch.

She's old, no excuse of course but many elderly folks still think in those terms. She had to resign of course.

HAYSIE

HAYSIE

Tikay10 said:

Ouch.

She's old, no excuse of course but many elderly folks still think in those terms. She had to resign of course.

She was very determined.

Enut

Sad really, I think her intention was to give her every opportunity to talk about her heritage, which she is apparently very proud of. Yes, with the benefit of hindsight in these PC times, she could have done it better and in the past a simple apology and an explanation of what she meant would have sufficed, but not nowadays, she needs to resign and be shamed by the press. That's progress.

Tikay10

@Enut

I think I largely agree with that. In her own way, I think she was genuinely trying to oil the wheels of convo. Clumsily though.

As to Ms Fulani, I'm amazed she can recount every word of the convo in precise detail. She will remember the gist of it, yes, but unless she was recording it, I simply don't believe that was the word for word convo. But I'm sure the thrust of it was accurate.

All a bit sad really, as I think it was well-intended.

Tikay10

The media - & social-media & Fora - are very unforgiving & harsh these days. A word out of place & the finger-pointers are all over it, the pile-on starts, & soon the instigator is cancelled for life. Sometimes correctly, often not so much.

Essexphil

We live in a World where context and proportion are sadly lacking.

I recall once asking someone far wiser than me about his experiences of racism, and his words have stuck with me.

He explained that it is not the words themselves that are key, but the context and the intent. He said that there are times when someone uses an offensive word, but they are using it to be inclusive, and that's fine. Other times otherwise inoffensive words are used to demean, or to be exclusive. And that is definitely not fine.

Some elderly people use words that are unacceptable today. But look at the context-was this person clumsily trying to be inclusive, or was she trying to demean? I suspect the former-but I wasn't there.

There needs to be a sense of proportion-someone using outdated language is one thing. Discrimination and hate speech is another.

I'm not saying the former is irrelevant. Just that sometimes it deflects from what (IMO) is rather more important.

Tikay10

Spot on @Essexphil

tai-gar

Unfortunately it does seem that it will now be milked for all that it is worth.

rabdeniro

I think she was just trying to make polite conversation and it went pear shaped, she's old and lives in a different world from most folks and does not understand what you can say and what you can't say in todays world, but I think it's been overblown by everybody.

Essexphil

rabdeniro said:

I think she was just trying to make polite conversation and it went pear shaped, she's old and lives in a different world from most folks and does not understand what you can say and what you can't say in todays world, but I think it's been overblown by everybody.

It could be so much better.

This could be used to educate, to show how almost identical words could have produced an inoffensive outcome.

But no-it's gallows time.

Tikay10

@Essexphil wrote;


"He explained that it is not the words themselves that are key, but the context and the intent. He said that there are times when someone uses an offensive word, but they are using it to be inclusive, and that's fine. Other times otherwise inoffensive words are used to demean, or to be exclusive. And that is definitely not fine."

I'm currently reading a book published in about 1930, "Men & Horses I Have Known" by George Lambton, a highly respected jockey & then trainer. Title is self-explanatory.

Lambton was successful both as a jockey & a trainer, & he was the first UK Trainer to introduce people of colour from the USA as jockeys in this country. This would be in about 1910, so 110 years ago. He had nothing but kindly words of praise for them, and employed many of them for many years. And yet, in describing them, he regularly uses the N word, as well as "the black boys". Most pertinently, these lads introduced a style of riding never before seen in the UK, whereby they ride with very short stirrups, sort of Lester Piggott style, & which almost every jockey now uses. So he coined the phrase, which stuck, of "monkey on a stick", which, all things considered, would not go down too well these days.

But he genuinely adored those lads, & showers them with praise for several chapters. There's no way on earth he was being (deliberately) racist, he showed them great kindness.

Context, & different times.

HAYSIE

Ex-chief crown prosecutor says race-row aide also asked him about his 'heritage' - as campaigner says palace has NOT contacted her and claims Queen's ex Lady-in-waiting 'made a beeline for me and touched my hair'



https://video.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2022/12/01/3536879748569478145/964x580_MP4_3536879748569478145.mp4





Nazir Afzal, 60, Chancellor of the University of Manchester and ex-chief prosecutor of the CPS under Sir Keir Starmer, reacted to the row by declaring: 'Racism is never far away'. Ngozi Fulani has made headlines around the world after Buckingham Palace was engulfed in a toxic race row that saw Lady Susan Hussey, the late Queen's chief lady-in-waiting, resign after being accused of racially insulting her and refusing to believe she was British. Mr Afzal tweeted: 'I was at the Buckingham Palace reception at which Lady Hussey questioned the heritage of a brilliant DV expert Ngozi Fulani. She only asked me my heritage once & seemed to accept my answer - Manchester currently!'. Ngozi Fulani today revealed that the King, Queen Consort or Prince William have not contacted her to apologise, despite Buckingham Palace's claims they had. But she said she would be 'happy' to take up the Royal Family 's invitation to meet to discuss what happened when Lady Susan Hussey refused to believe she was British and 'about 7 or 8 times' had asked her: 'Where are you really from?'. Describing the 'interrogation', as she described it, she said: 'I was stood next to two other women - black women - and she (Lady Susan) just made a beeline for me, and she took my locks and moved it out of the way so that she could see my name badge. That's a no-no. I wouldn't put my hands in someone's hair, and culturally it's not


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11489773/Campaigner-heart-Royal-race-storm-claims-received-NO-contact-Palace.html

Tikay10

I just checked - that book was published in 1924, so just under 100 years ago.

I refuse to believe the author was racist.

If he were alive & he said it today, then yes, he'd be racist I suppose.

Same bloke, different times.

Tikay10

HAYSIE said:

Ex-chief crown prosecutor says race-row aide also asked him about his 'heritage' - as campaigner says palace has NOT contacted her and claims Queen's ex Lady-in-waiting 'made a beeline for me and touched my hair'



https://video.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2022/12/01/3536879748569478145/964x580_MP4_3536879748569478145.mp4





Nazir Afzal, 60, Chancellor of the University of Manchester and ex-chief prosecutor of the CPS under Sir Keir Starmer, reacted to the row by declaring: 'Racism is never far away'. Ngozi Fulani has made headlines around the world after Buckingham Palace was engulfed in a toxic race row that saw Lady Susan Hussey, the late Queen's chief lady-in-waiting, resign after being accused of racially insulting her and refusing to believe she was British. Mr Afzal tweeted: 'I was at the Buckingham Palace reception at which Lady Hussey questioned the heritage of a brilliant DV expert Ngozi Fulani. She only asked me my heritage once & seemed to accept my answer - Manchester currently!'. Ngozi Fulani today revealed that the King, Queen Consort or Prince William have not contacted her to apologise, despite Buckingham Palace's claims they had. But she said she would be 'happy' to take up the Royal Family 's invitation to meet to discuss what happened when Lady Susan Hussey refused to believe she was British and 'about 7 or 8 times' had asked her: 'Where are you really from?'. Describing the 'interrogation', as she described it, she said: 'I was stood next to two other women - black women - and she (Lady Susan) just made a beeline for me, and she took my locks and moved it out of the way so that she could see my name badge. That's a no-no. I wouldn't put my hands in someone's hair, and culturally it's not


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11489773/Campaigner-heart-Royal-race-storm-claims-received-NO-contact-Palace.html

I'm almost scared to write this lest it be misinterpreted, but the Daily Mail are being themselves here, & stirring the pot as hard as they dare, & I sense the young lady is making the most of it too.

Essexphil

Tikay10 said:

@Essexphil wrote;


"He explained that it is not the words themselves that are key, but the context and the intent. He said that there are times when someone uses an offensive word, but they are using it to be inclusive, and that's fine. Other times otherwise inoffensive words are used to demean, or to be exclusive. And that is definitely not fine."

I'm currently reading a book published in about 1930, "Men & Horses I Have Known" by George Lambton, a highly respected jockey & then trainer. Title is self-explanatory.

Lambton was successful both as a jockey & a trainer, & he was the first UK Trainer to introduce people of colour from the USA as jockeys in this country. This would be in about 1910, so 110 years ago. He had nothing but kindly words of praise for them, and employed many of them for many years. And yet, in describing them, he regularly uses the N word, as well as "the black boys". Most pertinently, these lads introduced a style of riding never before seen in the UK, whereby they ride with very short stirrups, sort of Lester Piggott style, & which almost every jockey now uses. So he coined the phrase, which stuck, of "monkey on a stick", which, all things considered, would not go down too well these days.

But he genuinely adored those lads, & showers them with praise for several chapters. There's no way on earth he was being (deliberately) racist, he showed them great kindness.

Context, & different times.

There is a more recent example-Ron Atkinson.

Inappropriate use of the N-bomb (not sure there is an appropriate 1, but you know what I mean). Whole World apoplectic at this man's "racism".

That would be the man who signed and relied upon more Black players than anyone before him. Cunningham, Batson, Regis, Palmer, Dalian Atkinson, and lots more. Who-in football terms-was the best example at the time of a Manager who saw someone's ability, as opposed to the colour of their skin.

To quote Carlton Palmer at the time:-

"I'm black and I'm sitting here and I'm gonna stand up for Big Ron not because he's a friend of mine; I'm standing up for him because I know what he's like as a bloke. If we're going to deal with racism then let's deal with the bigger picture of racism not about a throwaway comment that wasn't meant in that manner."

Tikay10

That's a perfect example.

And Big Ron was 100% cancelled.

Essexphil

Tikay10 said:

That's a perfect example.

And Big Ron was 100% cancelled.

To lighten the mood, Ron Atkinson was always good for a quote.

When he signed Dalian Atkinson for Real Sociedad. When the local media asked if Dalian was his Son, and he suggested they wait to see him first.

Or when he memorably said to a Journalist that Carlton Palmer was the fastest man over 5 yards. When asked why, replied "Have you seen his first touch?"

Didn't stop him signing him more than once.

Which shows that what people do is often more important than what they say...

Enut

Just heard the news and she's now claiming she felt she was under 'interrogation' and was 'abused'. She'll enjoy her 15 minutes of fame no doubt. Probably a different definition of 'interrogation' and 'abused', than that used by ex POWs though.

goldon

Where you from....... a little Island called.