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Car Insurance & Servicing.

HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
edited June 15 in The Rail
When did this happen?

About Pay-per-mile policies

Pay as you go or pay per mile car insurance offers customers insurance prices which are based on the number of miles you drive. Insurers are able to monitor driving through smart technology and then use that information to charge customers on a per mile basis.

Insurers monitor mileage usually via a smart technology device which can be plugged into a socket within your vehicle. This socket is normally found near the steering wheel and your insurer will provide instructions on how to install.

With some newer cars, you won't need a tracker. You can just download a mobile phone app and it'll connect up with your car's mileometer.

Just like standard car insurance, the price you pay per mile, and any upfront fee you may have to pay, is based on things like your car and driving history.

Pay as you go or Pay per mile car insurance differs from a typical telematics policy, because when or how you drive doesn't have any effect on your price. There are no curfews or driving scores - your monthly bill is just based on the distance you've driven.

You'll have fully comprehensive insurance whether your car's parked at home or you're on the road.


Your annual price is estimated. It's based on a fixed upfront fee and the mileage you entered. That's 1,000 miles at 10.2p per mile
«134

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  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366

    Your annual price is estimated. It's based on a fixed upfront fee and the mileage you entered. That's 1,000 miles at 3.3p per mile. More info
    Info
    Requires self-installed mileage tracker to monitor your exact mileage usage. Pay only for the miles you drive per month, initial upfront payment required.
  • Options
    tai-gartai-gar Member Posts: 2,630
    HAYSIE said:


    Your annual price is estimated. It's based on a fixed upfront fee and the mileage you entered. That's 1,000 miles at 3.3p per mile. More info
    Info
    Requires self-installed mileage tracker to monitor your exact mileage usage. Pay only for the miles you drive per month, initial upfront payment required.

    Sounds a good idea for low mileage old fogeys like me.

    Which companies are doing it?
  • Options
    mumsiemumsie Member Posts: 7,535
    There are some potential pitfalls with this mileage tracking and monitoring insurance.


    Your insurance company uses an algorithm to monitor your driving.

    Hypothetically.

    It looks at your driving history and finds over the last couple of months.

    They see you braked excessively a few times, swerved a few times ,exceeded the speed limit occasionally.

    It could so happen that your excessive braking was due to a family of ducks crossing the road, a cyclist swerving into your path, a badly marked speed bump that you suddenly spotted.

    You slipped over the speed limit, it does happen from time to time.

    The algorithm decides to cancel your insurance, good luck getting cover, you have to declare that your last insurance was cancelled.

    With normal insurance these collision avoidance manoeuvres go un-noticed and cant be used against you.









  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    tai-gar said:

    HAYSIE said:


    Your annual price is estimated. It's based on a fixed upfront fee and the mileage you entered. That's 1,000 miles at 3.3p per mile. More info
    Info
    Requires self-installed mileage tracker to monitor your exact mileage usage. Pay only for the miles you drive per month, initial upfront payment required.

    Sounds a good idea for low mileage old fogeys like me.

    Which companies are doing it?
    I had a renewal quote from LV.
    My no claims bonus had increased, but so had my premium by £100.
    So I had a look on Go Compare.
    The Cheapest 2 quotes were companies offering the above.
    The wierd thing was the cheapest was charging 10.2 per mile.
    The other was £20 more expensive, but only charging 3.3 pence per mile.
    I had never heard of this before.
    The two companies were By Miles, and One Call.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    edited June 2023
    mumsie said:

    There are some potential pitfalls with this mileage tracking and monitoring insurance.


    Your insurance company uses an algorithm to monitor your driving.

    Hypothetically.

    It looks at your driving history and finds over the last couple of months.

    They see you braked excessively a few times, swerved a few times ,exceeded the speed limit occasionally.

    It could so happen that your excessive braking was due to a family of ducks crossing the road, a cyclist swerving into your path, a badly marked speed bump that you suddenly spotted.

    You slipped over the speed limit, it does happen from time to time.

    The algorithm decides to cancel your insurance, good luck getting cover, you have to declare that your last insurance was cancelled.

    With normal insurance these collision avoidance manoeuvres go un-noticed and cant be used against you.









    I dont think I am going to go for it, despite the probable savings involved.
    Although I am also reluctant to renew with LV.
    There are a couple of options that are minimally cheaper, without the mileage nonsense.
    This sort of deal could easily backfire it your life changed.
    I will probably choose one of the other companies.
  • Options
    Bean81Bean81 Member Posts: 554
    Admiral just bumped up our multi-car insurance from £500 to £700, despite another year of no claims and the cars being one-year older. Unfortunately, they are still the cheapest.

    When asked why the premium went up by 40% when we expected it to be level or go down a bit, they said it could be because people with similar characteristics in the area have made some claims recently. I get that my driving history, mileage, gender, age and city I live in are really important, but this seems a bit off - it's a bit like the police doing a stop and search based upon some biased thinking.
  • Options
    Bean81Bean81 Member Posts: 554
    To add: Admiral seem to put no claims on the car, not the individual. So if we want to move elsewhere, we officially have zero no claims bonus.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,368
    Bean81 said:

    Admiral just bumped up our multi-car insurance from £500 to £700, despite another year of no claims and the cars being one-year older. Unfortunately, they are still the cheapest.

    When asked why the premium went up by 40% when we expected it to be level or go down a bit, they said it could be because people with similar characteristics in the area have made some claims recently. I get that my driving history, mileage, gender, age and city I live in are really important, but this seems a bit off - it's a bit like the police doing a stop and search based upon some biased thinking.

    Postcodes can be vital in this sort of thing. As can increased computer data.

    I remember a time when premiums were set using (to use a random postcode) TW. Then TW7. Then TW7 5. Now some even rate you on TW7 5Q. Each time the effects on premium are massive, as better or worse areas are no longer counted.

    As an example, a whole County insisted on their Postcode changing some years back. Because the Vale of Glamorgan has both a very affluent area and a very poor one.

    Multi-car insurance has significant problems in relation to no claims discount. Having said that, car insurance has gone up a lot in the last year or so.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    tai-gar said:

    HAYSIE said:


    Your annual price is estimated. It's based on a fixed upfront fee and the mileage you entered. That's 1,000 miles at 3.3p per mile. More info
    Info
    Requires self-installed mileage tracker to monitor your exact mileage usage. Pay only for the miles you drive per month, initial upfront payment required.

    Sounds a good idea for low mileage old fogeys like me.

    Which companies are doing it?
    I might have a rethink.
    The One Call quote is £80 cheaper.
    At 3.3 pence per mile means that I could do almost 2,500 extra miles, and still break even.
    Also their quote includes Legal assistance, Breakdown cover, Personal accident, and a Courtesy car.
    Whereas the majority of the other quotes only include the last 2 of the above.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    Bean81 said:

    Admiral just bumped up our multi-car insurance from £500 to £700, despite another year of no claims and the cars being one-year older. Unfortunately, they are still the cheapest.

    When asked why the premium went up by 40% when we expected it to be level or go down a bit, they said it could be because people with similar characteristics in the area have made some claims recently. I get that my driving history, mileage, gender, age and city I live in are really important, but this seems a bit off - it's a bit like the police doing a stop and search based upon some biased thinking.

    You would think that they would be able to come up with a valid reason, that the average customer could understand.
    The fact that they are still the cheapest takes the wind out of your sales if you were thinking of having a row with them.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    HAYSIE said:

    tai-gar said:

    HAYSIE said:


    Your annual price is estimated. It's based on a fixed upfront fee and the mileage you entered. That's 1,000 miles at 3.3p per mile. More info
    Info
    Requires self-installed mileage tracker to monitor your exact mileage usage. Pay only for the miles you drive per month, initial upfront payment required.

    Sounds a good idea for low mileage old fogeys like me.

    Which companies are doing it?
    I might have a rethink.
    The One Call quote is £80 cheaper.
    At 3.3 pence per mile means that I could do almost 2,500 extra miles, and still break even.
    Also their quote includes Legal assistance, Breakdown cover, Personal accident, and a Courtesy car.
    Whereas the majority of the other quotes only include the last 2 of the above.
    Ive had the rethink.
    Definitely not doing it.
    Dont think my driving needs to be monitored.
  • Options
    dragon1964dragon1964 Member Posts: 3,054
    My car insurance was recently due for renewal.
    9 years no claims discount (the maximum they do)
    Last year was £193.
    Renewal price £318.
    Been with them about 5 years now but never auto renew.
    Got a few quotes ranging from about £260 to £500.
    Rang to tell them I'm going elsewhere because of the rise.
    Two minutes later I was offered £238.
    They just try to push it as far as possible.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366

    My car insurance was recently due for renewal.
    9 years no claims discount (the maximum they do)
    Last year was £193.
    Renewal price £318.
    Been with them about 5 years now but never auto renew.
    Got a few quotes ranging from about £260 to £500.
    Rang to tell them I'm going elsewhere because of the rise.
    Two minutes later I was offered £238.
    They just try to push it as far as possible.

    When operating in this way, they may retain a customer, but lose all credibility.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366

    My car insurance was recently due for renewal.
    9 years no claims discount (the maximum they do)
    Last year was £193.
    Renewal price £318.
    Been with them about 5 years now but never auto renew.
    Got a few quotes ranging from about £260 to £500.
    Rang to tell them I'm going elsewhere because of the rise.
    Two minutes later I was offered £238.
    They just try to push it as far as possible.

    I cancelled the renewal online last night.
    I will wait to see what happens.
    If they dont get in touch, I will probable accept the RAC quote.
  • Options
    dragon1964dragon1964 Member Posts: 3,054
    HAYSIE said:

    My car insurance was recently due for renewal.
    9 years no claims discount (the maximum they do)
    Last year was £193.
    Renewal price £318.
    Been with them about 5 years now but never auto renew.
    Got a few quotes ranging from about £260 to £500.
    Rang to tell them I'm going elsewhere because of the rise.
    Two minutes later I was offered £238.
    They just try to push it as far as possible.

    I cancelled the renewal online last night.
    I will wait to see what happens.
    If they dont get in touch, I will probable accept the RAC quote.
    Did you ring them? They usually try a bit harder on the phone when you tell them you are leaving.

    Incidentally, the best time to get quotes is about 21 days before renewal according to Money saving expert.
    I assume they realise that you have time to shop around then. If you leave it until 2 days before, they think you are desperate.
    It can make a vast difference in price apparently.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    Essexphil said:

    Bean81 said:

    Admiral just bumped up our multi-car insurance from £500 to £700, despite another year of no claims and the cars being one-year older. Unfortunately, they are still the cheapest.

    When asked why the premium went up by 40% when we expected it to be level or go down a bit, they said it could be because people with similar characteristics in the area have made some claims recently. I get that my driving history, mileage, gender, age and city I live in are really important, but this seems a bit off - it's a bit like the police doing a stop and search based upon some biased thinking.

    Postcodes can be vital in this sort of thing. As can increased computer data.

    I remember a time when premiums were set using (to use a random postcode) TW. Then TW7. Then TW7 5. Now some even rate you on TW7 5Q. Each time the effects on premium are massive, as better or worse areas are no longer counted.

    As an example, a whole County insisted on their Postcode changing some years back. Because the Vale of Glamorgan has both a very affluent area and a very poor one.

    Multi-car insurance has significant problems in relation to no claims discount. Having said that, car insurance has gone up a lot in the last year or so.
    I just thought it would be a little more straightforward.
    I understand that people with a poor driving record will get their premiums increased.
    Thats logical, if you are persistently getting caught for driving offences, you should pay more than someone who doesnt.
    If you live in an area where large numbers of cars are vandalised, or stolen, then you will pay more than those that live in areas where they arent.
    If you make regular claims, you lose your no claims bonus, and will definitely pay more than those that dont claim.
    If you park your car in the street, then it is more at risk, than if you dont.
    There are 17 houses/bungalows in my street.
    It is a cul-de-sac, so there arent loads of people walking down my street that are going elsewhere.
    I am not aware of any cars that have been stolen, or damaged during the 22 years that I have lived here.

    My premium has gone up 50% from last year to this.
    I havent committed any driving offences in the last 20 years.
    I have made one claim in the last 30 years, and that was for a windscreen, 17 years ago.
    This damage was caused by a stone on the motorway, and not necessarily my fault.
    I live in a decent area, and park the car on my drive.
    I would be surprised if the stats on stolen/damaged cars in my area have increased, or changed in the last 30 years.
    I had a company car leading up to my retirement.
    So I should have an eight year no claims bonus, they are actually giving me seven years, I havent quibbled over this as it only makes a difference of 1%.
    The value of my car will have decreased.
    My no claims bonus has increased slightly.
    I am only doing around 1,000 miles per year.

    I therefore cant see anything that has happened in the last 12 months that would warrant a 50% increase in my premium.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366

    HAYSIE said:

    My car insurance was recently due for renewal.
    9 years no claims discount (the maximum they do)
    Last year was £193.
    Renewal price £318.
    Been with them about 5 years now but never auto renew.
    Got a few quotes ranging from about £260 to £500.
    Rang to tell them I'm going elsewhere because of the rise.
    Two minutes later I was offered £238.
    They just try to push it as far as possible.

    I cancelled the renewal online last night.
    I will wait to see what happens.
    If they dont get in touch, I will probable accept the RAC quote.
    Did you ring them? They usually try a bit harder on the phone when you tell them you are leaving.

    Incidentally, the best time to get quotes is about 21 days before renewal according to Money saving expert.
    I assume they realise that you have time to shop around then. If you leave it until 2 days before, they think you are desperate.
    It can make a vast difference in price apparently.
    Ok thanks.
    It is due for renewal on the 20th June.
    If I dont hear from them in the next couple of days, I will give them a call to confirm that I have cancelled the renewal.
  • Options
    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,368
    edited June 2023
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Bean81 said:

    Admiral just bumped up our multi-car insurance from £500 to £700, despite another year of no claims and the cars being one-year older. Unfortunately, they are still the cheapest.

    When asked why the premium went up by 40% when we expected it to be level or go down a bit, they said it could be because people with similar characteristics in the area have made some claims recently. I get that my driving history, mileage, gender, age and city I live in are really important, but this seems a bit off - it's a bit like the police doing a stop and search based upon some biased thinking.

    Postcodes can be vital in this sort of thing. As can increased computer data.

    I remember a time when premiums were set using (to use a random postcode) TW. Then TW7. Then TW7 5. Now some even rate you on TW7 5Q. Each time the effects on premium are massive, as better or worse areas are no longer counted.

    As an example, a whole County insisted on their Postcode changing some years back. Because the Vale of Glamorgan has both a very affluent area and a very poor one.

    Multi-car insurance has significant problems in relation to no claims discount. Having said that, car insurance has gone up a lot in the last year or so.
    I just thought it would be a little more straightforward.
    I understand that people with a poor driving record will get their premiums increased.
    Thats logical, if you are persistently getting caught for driving offences, you should pay more than someone who doesnt.
    If you live in an area where large numbers of cars are vandalised, or stolen, then you will pay more than those that live in areas where they arent.
    If you make regular claims, you lose your no claims bonus, and will definitely pay more than those that dont claim.
    If you park your car in the street, then it is more at risk, than if you dont.
    There are 17 houses/bungalows in my street.
    It is a cul-de-sac, so there arent loads of people walking down my street that are going elsewhere.
    I am not aware of any cars that have been stolen, or damaged during the 22 years that I have lived here.

    My premium has gone up 50% from last year to this.
    I havent committed any driving offences in the last 20 years.
    I have made one claim in the last 30 years, and that was for a windscreen, 17 years ago.
    This damage was caused by a stone on the motorway, and not necessarily my fault.
    I live in a decent area, and park the car on my drive.
    I would be surprised if the stats on stolen/damaged cars in my area have increased, or changed in the last 30 years.
    I had a company car leading up to my retirement.
    So I should have an eight year no claims bonus, they are actually giving me seven years, I havent quibbled over this as it only makes a difference of 1%.
    The value of my car will have decreased.
    My no claims bonus has increased slightly.
    I am only doing around 1,000 miles per year.

    I therefore cant see anything that has happened in the last 12 months that would warrant a 50% increase in my premium.
    Car insurance has gone up, on average, by 20% this year. In part, this has been because of a return to normality-car insurance went down substantially during the pandemic.

    https://www.confused.com/car-insurance/guides/has-car-insurance-gone-up

    You need to know what your motor insurer regards as "your area"-it could be anywhere from the first 3 to the first 5 letters/numbers of your postcode, which will have a major impact.

    Any insurer will tell you that 30 years largely claim free may just mean you are now due ;)

    Finally, you mention lots of factors. But you do not mention one very important one-age. It's not just the increased risk associated with age. The retired are driving far more than during the pandemic, and consequently the risk has risen substantially.

    1 amusing fact relating to insurance for the retired. When a House insurer asks if you are at home all day, retired people say yes, believing that that will reduce the premium. Whereas it actually increases it. Insured people tend to think of burglaries-whereas insurers think of the damage we can cause while in the house.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    edited June 2023
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Bean81 said:

    Admiral just bumped up our multi-car insurance from £500 to £700, despite another year of no claims and the cars being one-year older. Unfortunately, they are still the cheapest.

    When asked why the premium went up by 40% when we expected it to be level or go down a bit, they said it could be because people with similar characteristics in the area have made some claims recently. I get that my driving history, mileage, gender, age and city I live in are really important, but this seems a bit off - it's a bit like the police doing a stop and search based upon some biased thinking.

    Postcodes can be vital in this sort of thing. As can increased computer data.

    I remember a time when premiums were set using (to use a random postcode) TW. Then TW7. Then TW7 5. Now some even rate you on TW7 5Q. Each time the effects on premium are massive, as better or worse areas are no longer counted.

    As an example, a whole County insisted on their Postcode changing some years back. Because the Vale of Glamorgan has both a very affluent area and a very poor one.

    Multi-car insurance has significant problems in relation to no claims discount. Having said that, car insurance has gone up a lot in the last year or so.
    I just thought it would be a little more straightforward.
    I understand that people with a poor driving record will get their premiums increased.
    Thats logical, if you are persistently getting caught for driving offences, you should pay more than someone who doesnt.
    If you live in an area where large numbers of cars are vandalised, or stolen, then you will pay more than those that live in areas where they arent.
    If you make regular claims, you lose your no claims bonus, and will definitely pay more than those that dont claim.
    If you park your car in the street, then it is more at risk, than if you dont.
    There are 17 houses/bungalows in my street.
    It is a cul-de-sac, so there arent loads of people walking down my street that are going elsewhere.
    I am not aware of any cars that have been stolen, or damaged during the 22 years that I have lived here.

    My premium has gone up 50% from last year to this.
    I havent committed any driving offences in the last 20 years.
    I have made one claim in the last 30 years, and that was for a windscreen, 17 years ago.
    This damage was caused by a stone on the motorway, and not necessarily my fault.
    I live in a decent area, and park the car on my drive.
    I would be surprised if the stats on stolen/damaged cars in my area have increased, or changed in the last 30 years.
    I had a company car leading up to my retirement.
    So I should have an eight year no claims bonus, they are actually giving me seven years, I havent quibbled over this as it only makes a difference of 1%.
    The value of my car will have decreased.
    My no claims bonus has increased slightly.
    I am only doing around 1,000 miles per year.

    I therefore cant see anything that has happened in the last 12 months that would warrant a 50% increase in my premium.
    Car insurance has gone up, on average, by 20% this year. In part, this has been because of a return to normality-car insurance went down substantially during the pandemic.

    https://www.confused.com/car-insurance/guides/has-car-insurance-gone-up

    You need to know what your motor insurer regards as "your area"-it could be anywhere from the first 3 to the first 5 letters/numbers of your postcode, which will have a major impact.

    Any insurer will tell you that 30 years largely claim free may just mean you are now due ;)

    Finally, you mention lots of factors. But you do not mention one very important one-age. It's not just the increased risk associated with age. The retired are driving far more than during the pandemic, and consequently the risk has risen substantially.

    1 amusing fact relating to insurance for the retired. When a House insurer asks if you are at home all day, retired people say yes, believing that that will reduce the premium. Whereas it actually increases it. Insured people tend to think of burglaries-whereas insurers think of the damage we can cause while in the house.
    It just seems quite mad.
    When I was working, I did 1,000 miles per week, and my premiums were much higher.
    I still cant see any difference between last year, and this, that would warrant a 50% increase.
  • Options
    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 33,366
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Bean81 said:

    Admiral just bumped up our multi-car insurance from £500 to £700, despite another year of no claims and the cars being one-year older. Unfortunately, they are still the cheapest.

    When asked why the premium went up by 40% when we expected it to be level or go down a bit, they said it could be because people with similar characteristics in the area have made some claims recently. I get that my driving history, mileage, gender, age and city I live in are really important, but this seems a bit off - it's a bit like the police doing a stop and search based upon some biased thinking.

    Postcodes can be vital in this sort of thing. As can increased computer data.

    I remember a time when premiums were set using (to use a random postcode) TW. Then TW7. Then TW7 5. Now some even rate you on TW7 5Q. Each time the effects on premium are massive, as better or worse areas are no longer counted.

    As an example, a whole County insisted on their Postcode changing some years back. Because the Vale of Glamorgan has both a very affluent area and a very poor one.

    Multi-car insurance has significant problems in relation to no claims discount. Having said that, car insurance has gone up a lot in the last year or so.
    I just thought it would be a little more straightforward.
    I understand that people with a poor driving record will get their premiums increased.
    Thats logical, if you are persistently getting caught for driving offences, you should pay more than someone who doesnt.
    If you live in an area where large numbers of cars are vandalised, or stolen, then you will pay more than those that live in areas where they arent.
    If you make regular claims, you lose your no claims bonus, and will definitely pay more than those that dont claim.
    If you park your car in the street, then it is more at risk, than if you dont.
    There are 17 houses/bungalows in my street.
    It is a cul-de-sac, so there arent loads of people walking down my street that are going elsewhere.
    I am not aware of any cars that have been stolen, or damaged during the 22 years that I have lived here.

    My premium has gone up 50% from last year to this.
    I havent committed any driving offences in the last 20 years.
    I have made one claim in the last 30 years, and that was for a windscreen, 17 years ago.
    This damage was caused by a stone on the motorway, and not necessarily my fault.
    I live in a decent area, and park the car on my drive.
    I would be surprised if the stats on stolen/damaged cars in my area have increased, or changed in the last 30 years.
    I had a company car leading up to my retirement.
    So I should have an eight year no claims bonus, they are actually giving me seven years, I havent quibbled over this as it only makes a difference of 1%.
    The value of my car will have decreased.
    My no claims bonus has increased slightly.
    I am only doing around 1,000 miles per year.

    I therefore cant see anything that has happened in the last 12 months that would warrant a 50% increase in my premium.
    Car insurance has gone up, on average, by 20% this year. In part, this has been because of a return to normality-car insurance went down substantially during the pandemic.

    https://www.confused.com/car-insurance/guides/has-car-insurance-gone-up

    You need to know what your motor insurer regards as "your area"-it could be anywhere from the first 3 to the first 5 letters/numbers of your postcode, which will have a major impact.

    Any insurer will tell you that 30 years largely claim free may just mean you are now due ;)

    Finally, you mention lots of factors. But you do not mention one very important one-age. It's not just the increased risk associated with age. The retired are driving far more than during the pandemic, and consequently the risk has risen substantially.

    1 amusing fact relating to insurance for the retired. When a House insurer asks if you are at home all day, retired people say yes, believing that that will reduce the premium. Whereas it actually increases it. Insured people tend to think of burglaries-whereas insurers think of the damage we can cause while in the house.
    It just seems quite mad.
    When I was working, I did 1,000 miles per week, and my premiums were much higher.
    I still cant see any difference between last year, and this, that would warrant a 50% increase.
    The other relevant factor is that I bought the car I have now when I retired for 20k, it is probably now worth 6k.
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