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Counter-terrorism police among Met officers handing in weapons after colleague charged with murder

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  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    Met firearms officers ‘anxious’ after Chris Kaba murder charge, says Sir Mark Rowley


    https://uk.yahoo.com/news/met-firearms-officers-anxious-chris-140601365.html
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,767
    A charge of Murder should only be brought where a firearms officer has acted deliberately.
    And a charge of Manslaughter should only be brought where a Firearms Officer has acted recklessly or with gross negligence.
    I'm not saying people should not be compensated where mistakes are made-they should. And that is not primarily costing the Officer money-that is the Police/State's cost.
    But we cannot expect forearms officers both to make split second decisions and accuse them of Murder when they (with the benefit of hindsight) get it wrong.

    The alternative is firearms officers being unable to make split second decisions when they need to. And that will cost lives. Lots of lives.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    Essexphil said:

    A charge of Murder should only be brought where a firearms officer has acted deliberately.
    And a charge of Manslaughter should only be brought where a Firearms Officer has acted recklessly or with gross negligence.
    I'm not saying people should not be compensated where mistakes are made-they should. And that is not primarily costing the Officer money-that is the Police/State's cost.
    But we cannot expect forearms officers both to make split second decisions and accuse them of Murder when they (with the benefit of hindsight) get it wrong.

    The alternative is firearms officers being unable to make split second decisions when they need to. And that will cost lives. Lots of lives.

    I was surprised by the murder charge.
    I couldnt see the CPS opting for a murder charge, unless the evidence was clear cut.
    That is not to say that he is guilty.
    Many people would expect the other officers present to protect one of their own, and at least muddy the waters, when it came to the investigation.
    I would agree that these officers have to make split second decisions, and occasionally one of them will be wrong, with fatal consequences.
    I can also understand why some officers may be reluctant to carry guns, in the light of the murder charge.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,767
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    A charge of Murder should only be brought where a firearms officer has acted deliberately.
    And a charge of Manslaughter should only be brought where a Firearms Officer has acted recklessly or with gross negligence.
    I'm not saying people should not be compensated where mistakes are made-they should. And that is not primarily costing the Officer money-that is the Police/State's cost.
    But we cannot expect forearms officers both to make split second decisions and accuse them of Murder when they (with the benefit of hindsight) get it wrong.

    The alternative is firearms officers being unable to make split second decisions when they need to. And that will cost lives. Lots of lives.

    I was surprised by the murder charge.
    I couldnt see the CPS opting for a murder charge, unless the evidence was clear cut.
    That is not to say that he is guilty.
    Many people would expect the other officers present to protect one of their own, and at least muddy the waters, when it came to the investigation.
    I would agree that these officers have to make split second decisions, and occasionally one of them will be wrong, with fatal consequences.
    I can also understand why some officers may be reluctant to carry guns, in the light of the murder charge.
    We certainly don't know all the facts. But we do know enough to know it was not clear cut.
    The evidence released before everything was hushed up was that the guy was driving someone else's car, that car had been used in the commission of a serious offence the previous day, and that armed police and a marksman were instructed to follow the car.

    There may well be Criminal Charges and a Civil case, but Murder?

    As per usual, the Army instruct serving soldiers to plug the gaps.

    I wonder what would happen if a soldier (who is likely to have to make rather more such split-second decisions of this nature) would ever be charged with Murder?
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    A charge of Murder should only be brought where a firearms officer has acted deliberately.
    And a charge of Manslaughter should only be brought where a Firearms Officer has acted recklessly or with gross negligence.
    I'm not saying people should not be compensated where mistakes are made-they should. And that is not primarily costing the Officer money-that is the Police/State's cost.
    But we cannot expect forearms officers both to make split second decisions and accuse them of Murder when they (with the benefit of hindsight) get it wrong.

    The alternative is firearms officers being unable to make split second decisions when they need to. And that will cost lives. Lots of lives.

    I was surprised by the murder charge.
    I couldnt see the CPS opting for a murder charge, unless the evidence was clear cut.
    That is not to say that he is guilty.
    Many people would expect the other officers present to protect one of their own, and at least muddy the waters, when it came to the investigation.
    I would agree that these officers have to make split second decisions, and occasionally one of them will be wrong, with fatal consequences.
    I can also understand why some officers may be reluctant to carry guns, in the light of the murder charge.
    We certainly don't know all the facts. But we do know enough to know it was not clear cut.
    The evidence released before everything was hushed up was that the guy was driving someone else's car, that car had been used in the commission of a serious offence the previous day, and that armed police and a marksman were instructed to follow the car.

    There may well be Criminal Charges and a Civil case, but Murder?

    As per usual, the Army instruct serving soldiers to plug the gaps.

    I wonder what would happen if a soldier (who is likely to have to make rather more such split-second decisions of this nature) would ever be charged with Murder?
    I understand that bit, but he was still in the car, unarmed, and shot through the windscreen.
    The murder charge in respect of a police officer, was surely a massive step for the CPS?
    Would they have gone for this option if they just had some shaky evidence?

  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,767
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    A charge of Murder should only be brought where a firearms officer has acted deliberately.
    And a charge of Manslaughter should only be brought where a Firearms Officer has acted recklessly or with gross negligence.
    I'm not saying people should not be compensated where mistakes are made-they should. And that is not primarily costing the Officer money-that is the Police/State's cost.
    But we cannot expect forearms officers both to make split second decisions and accuse them of Murder when they (with the benefit of hindsight) get it wrong.

    The alternative is firearms officers being unable to make split second decisions when they need to. And that will cost lives. Lots of lives.

    I was surprised by the murder charge.
    I couldnt see the CPS opting for a murder charge, unless the evidence was clear cut.
    That is not to say that he is guilty.
    Many people would expect the other officers present to protect one of their own, and at least muddy the waters, when it came to the investigation.
    I would agree that these officers have to make split second decisions, and occasionally one of them will be wrong, with fatal consequences.
    I can also understand why some officers may be reluctant to carry guns, in the light of the murder charge.
    We certainly don't know all the facts. But we do know enough to know it was not clear cut.
    The evidence released before everything was hushed up was that the guy was driving someone else's car, that car had been used in the commission of a serious offence the previous day, and that armed police and a marksman were instructed to follow the car.

    There may well be Criminal Charges and a Civil case, but Murder?

    As per usual, the Army instruct serving soldiers to plug the gaps.

    I wonder what would happen if a soldier (who is likely to have to make rather more such split-second decisions of this nature) would ever be charged with Murder?
    I understand that bit, but he was still in the car, unarmed, and shot through the windscreen.
    The murder charge in respect of a police officer, was surely a massive step for the CPS?
    Would they have gone for this option if they just had some shaky evidence?

    There may well be more to this. We don't know. And we are probably not going to know for a long time.

    Worth noting that quite a lot of the relevant officers have now decided to continue.

    Although I do wonder whether, in the pursuit of expediency, a news blackout to the general public for fear of prejudicing a trial can simultaneously be circumvented for his work colleagues without doing exactly the same thing.
  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 3,517
    This may shed some light on things....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-65352683.amp

    Maybe the CPS have charged the officer with murder as they can then pass the buck onto the jury and legal system to decide whether the officer is guilty of murder and at the same time appease those baying for 'justice'.

    I find it very difficult to see how the officer can be guilty of murder as surely that has to be premeditated? I can't see how that can apply in this case, unless of course the argument is that all armed officers are just looking for someone to kill.

    My father was an armed response officer (or whatever the equivalent was 30-40 years ago), I'm pretty sure he will be turning in his grave now.
  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 3,517
    Apparently murder does not need to be premeditated. It requires only that there is an intention to kill or cause serious injury. Knowledge is the same as intent.

    Found this elsewhere, yep, by that definition it looks like any armed officer that has to use their weapon and does so effectively (after all they are trained to shoot to kill, not injure, or disarm) should be charged with murder, no wonder they are all handing their weapons in.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    edited September 2023
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    A charge of Murder should only be brought where a firearms officer has acted deliberately.
    And a charge of Manslaughter should only be brought where a Firearms Officer has acted recklessly or with gross negligence.
    I'm not saying people should not be compensated where mistakes are made-they should. And that is not primarily costing the Officer money-that is the Police/State's cost.
    But we cannot expect forearms officers both to make split second decisions and accuse them of Murder when they (with the benefit of hindsight) get it wrong.

    The alternative is firearms officers being unable to make split second decisions when they need to. And that will cost lives. Lots of lives.

    I was surprised by the murder charge.
    I couldnt see the CPS opting for a murder charge, unless the evidence was clear cut.
    That is not to say that he is guilty.
    Many people would expect the other officers present to protect one of their own, and at least muddy the waters, when it came to the investigation.
    I would agree that these officers have to make split second decisions, and occasionally one of them will be wrong, with fatal consequences.
    I can also understand why some officers may be reluctant to carry guns, in the light of the murder charge.
    We certainly don't know all the facts. But we do know enough to know it was not clear cut.
    The evidence released before everything was hushed up was that the guy was driving someone else's car, that car had been used in the commission of a serious offence the previous day, and that armed police and a marksman were instructed to follow the car.

    There may well be Criminal Charges and a Civil case, but Murder?

    As per usual, the Army instruct serving soldiers to plug the gaps.

    I wonder what would happen if a soldier (who is likely to have to make rather more such split-second decisions of this nature) would ever be charged with Murder?
    I understand that bit, but he was still in the car, unarmed, and shot through the windscreen.
    The murder charge in respect of a police officer, was surely a massive step for the CPS?
    Would they have gone for this option if they just had some shaky evidence?

    There may well be more to this. We don't know. And we are probably not going to know for a long time.

    Worth noting that quite a lot of the relevant officers have now decided to continue.

    Although I do wonder whether, in the pursuit of expediency, a news blackout to the general public for fear of prejudicing a trial can simultaneously be circumvented for his work colleagues without doing exactly the same thing.
    Decision to charge officer with Chris Kaba murder ‘should be reviewed’




    Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, the former director of public prosecutions, said: “It’s been referred to the CPS, the evidence has been considered and the CPS has made their decision.

    https://uk.yahoo.com/style/decision-charge-officer-chris-kaba-200000350.html
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,767
    I was aware of the above.

    This is not the fault of the CPS-they are there to deal with the law as it currently stands. Not what it should be.

    It has always previously been the case that it is for the Prosecution to prove the Defendant Guilty beyond reasonable doubt. For all serious crimes, including Murder. That is why we say "innocent until proven guilty"

    The problem is that some wassock has introduced a totally different test for Police Officers. As the article above rightly says, the current position is that

    "If they shoot someone, an officer must show they had an honestly held belief they were doing so to protect themselves, their colleagues or the public".

    In addition, an armed officer is "responsible for his own actions, and must be able to show that what they did was necessary proportionate and reasonable."

    This is most certainly not treating armed officers like the general public. For everyone else, it is for the Prosecution to prove Guilt, not for the Defendant to prove innocence. Particularly for Murder. There is a world of difference between proving someone did not have an honest belief and the Defendant proving that they did.

    No other employee is "responsible for their own actions". If you make a mistake at work that costs your employer a lot of money, he cannot usually sue you for it. People don't get made bankrupt because of mistakes in employment. That is what Employers have Employers Liability insurance for.

    I would be most surprised if the anonymity order is removed. Because that is going to place that policeman's life in grave danger.

    Finally, Sir Mark Rowley is totally wrong to claim there should be consistency between the civil and criminal systems. There are many occasions when an employee has committed no criminal act but could still rightly face dismissal.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    Essexphil said:

    I was aware of the above.

    This is not the fault of the CPS-they are there to deal with the law as it currently stands. Not what it should be.

    It has always previously been the case that it is for the Prosecution to prove the Defendant Guilty beyond reasonable doubt. For all serious crimes, including Murder. That is why we say "innocent until proven guilty"

    The problem is that some wassock has introduced a totally different test for Police Officers. As the article above rightly says, the current position is that

    "If they shoot someone, an officer must show they had an honestly held belief they were doing so to protect themselves, their colleagues or the public".

    This bit goes on to say,
    If it is accepted that they had this honest belief, even if it was mistaken, they are not guilty of a criminal offence.
    Doesnt that make it extremely difficult to justify a murder charge?


    In addition, an armed officer is "responsible for his own actions, and must be able to show that what they did was necessary proportionate and reasonable."

    I thought this bit was to protect the officer, as they cant be ordered to pull the trigger.

    This is most certainly not treating armed officers like the general public. For everyone else, it is for the Prosecution to prove Guilt, not for the Defendant to prove innocence. Particularly for Murder. There is a world of difference between proving someone did not have an honest belief and the Defendant proving that they did.

    No other employee is "responsible for their own actions". If you make a mistake at work that costs your employer a lot of money, he cannot usually sue you for it. People don't get made bankrupt because of mistakes in employment. That is what Employers have Employers Liability insurance for.

    I would be most surprised if the anonymity order is removed. Because that is going to place that policeman's life in grave danger.

    Finally, Sir Mark Rowley is totally wrong to claim there should be consistency between the civil and criminal systems. There are many occasions when an employee has committed no criminal act but could still rightly face dismissal.

  • goldongoldon Member Posts: 9,045
    They are not " James Bond Licensed to kill " We can all Speculate what happened in the split second before pulling the trigger. The fact the shot was fired through the front windscreen and not the drivers window / did he think he was going to be run over.
    Only the Officers there know how it all played out and any jury will get that evidence.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    goldon said:

    They are not " James Bond Licensed to kill " We can all Speculate what happened in the split second before pulling the trigger. The fact the shot was fired through the front windscreen and not the drivers window / did he think he was going to be run over.
    Only the Officers there know how it all played out and any jury will get that evidence.

    My point is that the rules clearly state that even if the officer is mistaken in his honestly held belief that he is taking the shot in order to protect himself, his colleagues or the public, he is not guilty of a criminal offence.
    So what evidence could the CPS have been given, that would result in a murder charge?
    What other possible reason could he have for taking the shot?
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,767
    edited September 2023
    HAYSIE said:

    goldon said:

    They are not " James Bond Licensed to kill " We can all Speculate what happened in the split second before pulling the trigger. The fact the shot was fired through the front windscreen and not the drivers window / did he think he was going to be run over.
    Only the Officers there know how it all played out and any jury will get that evidence.

    My point is that the rules clearly state that even if the officer is mistaken in his honestly held belief that he is taking the shot in order to protect himself, his colleagues or the public, he is not guilty of a criminal offence.
    So what evidence could the CPS have been given, that would result in a murder charge?
    What other possible reason could he have for taking the shot?
    You make a perfectly valid point.

    But there are 2 things on the other side of that particular coin:-

    1. The fact remains that the onus is placed upon the Officer to show he had an honestly-held belief. Whereas the burden of proof should be on the Prosecution to show beyond reasonable doubt that he did not
    2. It is equally valid to ask questions as to why the armed marksman was following the car in the first place. Because that does not happen routinely-it happens because of a planned operation and/or surveillance. And not a typical surveillance-one that requires the presence of armed police
  • goldongoldon Member Posts: 9,045
    HAYSIE said:

    goldon said:

    They are not " James Bond Licensed to kill " We can all Speculate what happened in the split second before pulling the trigger. The fact the shot was fired through the front windscreen and not the drivers window / did he think he was going to be run over.
    Only the Officers there know how it all played out and any jury will get that evidence.

    My point is that the rules clearly state that even if the officer is mistaken in his honestly held belief that he is taking the shot in order to protect himself, his colleagues or the public, he is not guilty of a criminal offence.
    So what evidence could the CPS have been given, that would result in a murder charge?
    What other possible reason could he have for taking the shot?
    They are all briefed before and up too the event about what they are going to be dealing with, they know guns could be involved why they are responding and not unarmed officers. If the officer had red mist moment it may show on his body cam so jurors will view that evidence to make any decision. It's a wait and see .... I wish him proved innocent time will tell, but only if he is innocent as we need to support the Police Officer that fight crime for us the public.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    goldon said:

    They are not " James Bond Licensed to kill " We can all Speculate what happened in the split second before pulling the trigger. The fact the shot was fired through the front windscreen and not the drivers window / did he think he was going to be run over.
    Only the Officers there know how it all played out and any jury will get that evidence.

    My point is that the rules clearly state that even if the officer is mistaken in his honestly held belief that he is taking the shot in order to protect himself, his colleagues or the public, he is not guilty of a criminal offence.
    So what evidence could the CPS have been given, that would result in a murder charge?
    What other possible reason could he have for taking the shot?
    You make a perfectly valid point.

    But there are 2 things on the other side of that particular coin:-

    1. The fact remains that the onus is placed upon the Officer to show he had an honestly-held belief. Whereas the burden of proof should be on the Prosecution to show beyond reasonable doubt that he did not
    2. It is equally valid to ask questions as to why the armed marksman was following the car in the first place. Because that does not happen routinely-it happens because of a planned operation and/or surveillance. And not a typical surveillance-one that requires the presence of armed police
    Wouldnt it follow that as the CPS charged him with murder, that they didnt believe that he had an honest belief that he was protecting himself, his colleagues, or the public?
  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 3,517
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    goldon said:

    They are not " James Bond Licensed to kill " We can all Speculate what happened in the split second before pulling the trigger. The fact the shot was fired through the front windscreen and not the drivers window / did he think he was going to be run over.
    Only the Officers there know how it all played out and any jury will get that evidence.

    My point is that the rules clearly state that even if the officer is mistaken in his honestly held belief that he is taking the shot in order to protect himself, his colleagues or the public, he is not guilty of a criminal offence.
    So what evidence could the CPS have been given, that would result in a murder charge?
    What other possible reason could he have for taking the shot?
    You make a perfectly valid point.

    But there are 2 things on the other side of that particular coin:-

    1. The fact remains that the onus is placed upon the Officer to show he had an honestly-held belief. Whereas the burden of proof should be on the Prosecution to show beyond reasonable doubt that he did not
    2. It is equally valid to ask questions as to why the armed marksman was following the car in the first place. Because that does not happen routinely-it happens because of a planned operation and/or surveillance. And not a typical surveillance-one that requires the presence of armed police
    Wouldnt it follow that as the CPS charged him with murder, that they didnt believe that he had an honest belief that he was protecting himself, his colleagues, or the public?
    Or maybe the CPS don't want to take the blame from Kaba's fans for 'whitewashing' the whole thing.

    Kaba had previous for gun possession (albeit imitation), was a member of a notorious gang, affiliated with people who went on to be charged with plotting to murder, GBH and shooting and Kaba was there at the time and would probably have stood trial too had he been alive to do so. He was driving a car with a firearms marker on it.

    The CPS have brought a number of murder charges against police officers for similar situations before, apparently all have been dropped due to lack of evidence before reaching court.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 35,813
    Enut said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    goldon said:

    They are not " James Bond Licensed to kill " We can all Speculate what happened in the split second before pulling the trigger. The fact the shot was fired through the front windscreen and not the drivers window / did he think he was going to be run over.
    Only the Officers there know how it all played out and any jury will get that evidence.

    My point is that the rules clearly state that even if the officer is mistaken in his honestly held belief that he is taking the shot in order to protect himself, his colleagues or the public, he is not guilty of a criminal offence.
    So what evidence could the CPS have been given, that would result in a murder charge?
    What other possible reason could he have for taking the shot?
    You make a perfectly valid point.

    But there are 2 things on the other side of that particular coin:-

    1. The fact remains that the onus is placed upon the Officer to show he had an honestly-held belief. Whereas the burden of proof should be on the Prosecution to show beyond reasonable doubt that he did not
    2. It is equally valid to ask questions as to why the armed marksman was following the car in the first place. Because that does not happen routinely-it happens because of a planned operation and/or surveillance. And not a typical surveillance-one that requires the presence of armed police
    Wouldnt it follow that as the CPS charged him with murder, that they didnt believe that he had an honest belief that he was protecting himself, his colleagues, or the public?
    Or maybe the CPS don't want to take the blame from Kaba's fans for 'whitewashing' the whole thing.

    Does that mean you would expect the CPS to charge a police officer with murder, and jeopardise the rest of his life, merely to avoid a backlash in the media, or outrage from the victims friends, and family?
    Surely not.


    Kaba had previous for gun possession (albeit imitation), was a member of a notorious gang, affiliated with people who went on to be charged with plotting to murder, GBH and shooting and Kaba was there at the time and would probably have stood trial too had he been alive to do so. He was driving a car with a firearms marker on it.

    He was shot while unarmed, and sitting in the car.
    You surely cant shoot on sight someone that has previously held a firearm, whether it was imitation or not?
    He surely must have done something to provoke the officer into shooting.
    Clearly the CPS arent happy with the shooting, hence the murder charge.




    The CPS have brought a number of murder charges against police officers for similar
    to situations before, apparently all have been dropped due toIt surely cant be ok lack of evidence before reaching court.
    There seems to be a high bar.
    There are two cases from 2015 referred to above.
    In both cases the suspects were shot.
    One was bending down, the other was reaching.
    In both cases the officer assumed they were reaching for a gun.
    In both cases the officer was wrong.
    One was found to be not guilty the other wasnt charged.
    Although I agree that these are split second decisions, with lives at risk, but I also think that just moving your arm could be considered reaching.



  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 3,517
    edited September 2023
    He was shot while, it later turned out, unarmed and driving a 2 tonne high speed metal box that is quite capable of killing the police officer concerned and any others that happen to be in the way, or any innocent members of the public if he managed to escape the police blockade.

    If someone is trying to kill you by driving a car at you should you, as an armed police officer, stop that threat or jump out of the way and wave cheerily at him as he escapes. I know what I would prefer our police to do.

    Of course none of us know exactly what happened but it is quite telling that his family, who were baying for blood, apparently went quiet after being shown video footage of the event.
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