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'Loopy' Liz Truss 'suggested increasing pension age to 80'

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  • Bean81Bean81 Member Posts: 608
    I'm not on the side of thinking pensioners should be able to avoid tax. As somebody that's using pension contributions to avoid a ton of tax right now, I'm okay with paying tax on that money once I reach retirement.

    I do think we need pension reform. A compulsory 5% employee, 10% employer contribution would help, with similar requirements enforced for the self-employed. If we can then figure out a way to prevent the rich from buying up all the houses so that people don't need to pay rental income in retirement, we might be okay.

    We do need a sensible debate on the future of the state pension though. State pension was payable for 10 years on average not so long ago. Now it's 20 years plus all the extra medical and care costs that can come with it. We live in a country where government debt now exceeds government assets, which means public services will become even more strained over time without radical action.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    Bean81 said:

    I'm not on the side of thinking pensioners should be able to avoid tax. As somebody that's using pension contributions to avoid a ton of tax right now, I'm okay with paying tax on that money once I reach retirement.

    I do think we need pension reform. A compulsory 5% employee, 10% employer contribution would help, with similar requirements enforced for the self-employed. If we can then figure out a way to prevent the rich from buying up all the houses so that people don't need to pay rental income in retirement, we might be okay.

    We do need a sensible debate on the future of the state pension though. State pension was payable for 10 years on average not so long ago. Now it's 20 years plus all the extra medical and care costs that can come with it. We live in a country where government debt now exceeds government assets, which means public services will become even more strained over time without radical action.

    I wasnt arguing for that.
    I was only arguing that state pension should be tax free.
    It seems pointless to give money out with one hand, and take it back with the other.
    Or perhaps they should increase the triple lock further, to take account of income tax.
    Any pensioner with just about any additional income, will be paying increasing amounts of tax on the additional income since 2021.
    And if nothing changes, all pensioners that receive the maximum payment, will be paying some tax on the state pension from 2025, or 2026.

    I dont have a clue what benefits are available to pensioners, but I think that retiring while having to pay rent would be very difficult, particularly if you were single.

    The reasons for the state pension scheme being in trouble, are obvious.
    Yet the Tories are intent on reducing, and doing away with NI contributions in the longer term.
    Surely the reductions in contributions, can only lead to further increases in the qualifying age for the state pension.

    Given a choice, I am not sure that young people would today vote for relatively small reductions in NI, and having to wait until they are in their 70s to qualify for the state pension.
    If I was a youngster today, I would favour slightly higher contributions, and being able to qualify earlier.

    The triple lock was put in place to protect pensioners.
    Yet the freezing of the tax thresholds has had the opposite effect.
    The effect of this has made people in a similar position to me around £700 per year worse off.
    The personal allowance was frozen in 2021.
    I accept that pensioners are not the only people affected by this.
    The increase in state pension in 2021 was £229.
    In 2022 it was increased by £289.
    So the £700 I am worse off by, has wiped out both these increases, as well as part of the 2023 increase.
    I suppose that suspending the triple lock in 2022, when inflation was running at 11.1%, didnt help much either.
  • DoublemeDoubleme Member Posts: 2,189
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    edited March 27
    Bean81 said:

    I'm not on the side of thinking pensioners should be able to avoid tax. As somebody that's using pension contributions to avoid a ton of tax right now, I'm okay with paying tax on that money once I reach retirement.

    I do think we need pension reform. A compulsory 5% employee, 10% employer contribution would help, with similar requirements enforced for the self-employed. If we can then figure out a way to prevent the rich from buying up all the houses so that people don't need to pay rental income in retirement, we might be okay.

    We do need a sensible debate on the future of the state pension though. State pension was payable for 10 years on average not so long ago. Now it's 20 years plus all the extra medical and care costs that can come with it. We live in a country where government debt now exceeds government assets, which means public services will become even more strained over time without radical action.

    Bean81 said:

    I'm not on the side of thinking pensioners should be able to avoid tax. As somebody that's using pension contributions to avoid a ton of tax right now, I'm okay with paying tax on that money once I reach retirement.

    I do think we need pension reform. A compulsory 5% employee, 10% employer contribution would help, with similar requirements enforced for the self-employed. If we can then figure out a way to prevent the rich from buying up all the houses so that people don't need to pay rental income in retirement, we might be okay.

    We do need a sensible debate on the future of the state pension though. State pension was payable for 10 years on average not so long ago. Now it's 20 years plus all the extra medical and care costs that can come with it. We live in a country where government debt now exceeds government assets, which means public services will become even more strained over time without radical action.

    These are the bits that dont make sense to me.
    Everyone knows that people are living longer.
    Therefore the numbers drawing a state pension are forever increasing.
    This makes state pension increasingly less affordable
    The solution to this seems to be that this government seems h ell bent on regularly increasing the age that people are able to draw the state pension.
    While at the same time, maintaining the triple lock, which increases state pensions generously, but at the same time freezing income tax thresholds.
    The freezing of tax thresholds increases the tax burden on any additional income, which devalues the additional income, and therefore undermines the generous increases.
    The government has also recently reduced NI contributions twice.
    This is of no benefit to pensioners.
    I listened to a report the other night that maintained that 80% of NI contributions were used to fund the state pension and benefits, and 20% fund the NHS.

    So to summarise.
    The state pension is unaffordable.
    Therefore the qualifying age is regularly increased.
    They have sworn to continue with the triple lock, to provide pensioners with protection, and generous increases.
    These generous increases are being offset by an increasing tax burden for those with an additional income.
    They have recently reduced the receipts from NI contributions twice.
    This is despite the fact that the state pension was already unaffordable, and the NHS is already a bottomless pit, with record waiting lists.

    It just doesnt seem like joined up thinking.

  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    Triple lock increase all but wiped out by Hunt’s stealth tax raid


    https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/triple-lock-increase-wiped-hunt-060000779.html
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,845
    Poor pensioners.

    Or, more accurately, the richer 60% of pensioners-as at least 40% pay no tax at all. And will continue to pay no tax at all. Something that article completely ignored.

    Wealthier pensioners used to have to pay 20% tax on income over and above £12,500. Whereas everyone else had to pay 30%. And this is being adjusted to 20% v 26%.

    Meanwhile, everyone else has to work longer and receive pensions later to pay for current pensioners.

    Who still manage to claim this is somehow unfair. To them. While banging on about frozen tax thresholds. Conveniently forgetting that it applies to everyone else, too.

    The privileged generation. Who steadfastly fail to recognise it.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    Essexphil said:

    Poor pensioners.

    Or, more accurately, the richer 60% of pensioners-as at least 40% pay no tax at all. And will continue to pay no tax at all. Something that article completely ignored.

    Wealthier pensioners used to have to pay 20% tax on income over and above £12,500. Whereas everyone else had to pay 30%. And this is being adjusted to 20% v 26%.

    Meanwhile, everyone else has to work longer and receive pensions later to pay for current pensioners.

    Who still manage to claim this is somehow unfair. To them. While banging on about frozen tax thresholds. Conveniently forgetting that it applies to everyone else, too.

    The privileged generation. Who steadfastly fail to recognise it.

    I was only arguing that state pension should be tax free.
    It seems pointless to give money out with one hand, and take it back with the other.
    Or perhaps they should increase the triple lock further, to take account of income tax.
    Any pensioner with just about any additional income, will be paying increasing amounts of tax on the additional income since 2021.
    And if nothing changes, all pensioners that receive the maximum payment, will be paying some tax on the state pension from 2025, or 2026.

    I dont have a clue what benefits are available to pensioners, but I think that retiring while having to pay rent would be very difficult, particularly if you were single.

    The reasons for the state pension scheme being in trouble, are obvious.
    Yet the Tories are intent on reducing, and doing away with NI contributions in the longer term.
    Surely the reductions in contributions, can only lead to further increases in the qualifying age for the state pension.

    Given a choice, I am not sure that young people would today vote for relatively small reductions in NI, and having to wait until they are in their 70s to qualify for the state pension.
    If I was a youngster today, I would favour slightly higher contributions, and being able to qualify earlier.

    The triple lock was put in place to protect pensioners.
    Yet the freezing of the tax thresholds has had the opposite effect.
    The effect of this has made people in a similar position to me around £700 per year worse off.
    The personal allowance was frozen in 2021.
    I accept that pensioners are not the only people affected by this.
    The increase in state pension in 2021 was £229.
    In 2022 it was increased by £289.
    So the £700 I am worse off by, has wiped out both these increases, as well as part of the 2023 increase.
    I suppose that suspending the triple lock in 2022, when inflation was running at 11.1%, didnt help much either.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    Essexphil said:

    Poor pensioners.

    Or, more accurately, the richer 60% of pensioners-as at least 40% pay no tax at all. And will continue to pay no tax at all. Something that article completely ignored.

    Wealthier pensioners used to have to pay 20% tax on income over and above £12,500. Whereas everyone else had to pay 30%. And this is being adjusted to 20% v 26%.

    Meanwhile, everyone else has to work longer and receive pensions later to pay for current pensioners.

    Who still manage to claim this is somehow unfair. To them. While banging on about frozen tax thresholds. Conveniently forgetting that it applies to everyone else, too.

    The privileged generation. Who steadfastly fail to recognise it.

    Unless you earn over 125k.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    Essexphil said:

    Poor pensioners.

    Some are.

    Or, more accurately, the richer 60% of pensioners-as at least 40% pay no tax at all. And will continue to pay no tax at all. Something that article completely ignored.

    For a minute.

    Wealthier pensioners used to have to pay 20% tax on income over and above £12,500. Whereas everyone else had to pay 30%. And this is being adjusted to 20% v 26%.

    As did the pensioners while they were working, and bigger earners dont get a personal allowance.

    Meanwhile, everyone else has to work longer and receive pensions later to pay for current pensioners.

    Both me and my wife had to wait longer than we expected.
    That is a difficult argument to stand up, as people will be working longer in future, long after I am dead and stopped drawing a state pension.
    You could argue that they will be working longer to fund their own pensions.


    Who still manage to claim this is somehow unfair. To them. While banging on about frozen tax thresholds. Conveniently forgetting that it applies to everyone else, too.

    I have said this in previous posts.
    I am just maintaining that it is stupid to give it out with one hand, and question how reducing NI contributions can possibly help an already screwed up state pension scheme.


    The privileged generation. Who steadfastly fail to recognise it.

    The next generation arent doing so bad.

  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,845
    edited March 28
    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Poor pensioners.

    Or, more accurately, the richer 60% of pensioners-as at least 40% pay no tax at all. And will continue to pay no tax at all. Something that article completely ignored.

    Wealthier pensioners used to have to pay 20% tax on income over and above £12,500. Whereas everyone else had to pay 30%. And this is being adjusted to 20% v 26%.

    Meanwhile, everyone else has to work longer and receive pensions later to pay for current pensioners.

    Who still manage to claim this is somehow unfair. To them. While banging on about frozen tax thresholds. Conveniently forgetting that it applies to everyone else, too.

    The privileged generation. Who steadfastly fail to recognise it.

    I was only arguing that state pension should be tax free.
    It seems pointless to give money out with one hand, and take it back with the other.
    Or perhaps they should increase the triple lock further, to take account of income tax.
    Any pensioner with just about any additional income, will be paying increasing amounts of tax on the additional income since 2021.
    And if nothing changes, all pensioners that receive the maximum payment, will be paying some tax on the state pension from 2025, or 2026.

    I dont have a clue what benefits are available to pensioners, but I think that retiring while having to pay rent would be very difficult, particularly if you were single.

    The reasons for the state pension scheme being in trouble, are obvious.
    Yet the Tories are intent on reducing, and doing away with NI contributions in the longer term.
    Surely the reductions in contributions, can only lead to further increases in the qualifying age for the state pension.

    Given a choice, I am not sure that young people would today vote for relatively small reductions in NI, and having to wait until they are in their 70s to qualify for the state pension.
    If I was a youngster today, I would favour slightly higher contributions, and being able to qualify earlier.

    The triple lock was put in place to protect pensioners.
    Yet the freezing of the tax thresholds has had the opposite effect.
    The effect of this has made people in a similar position to me around £700 per year worse off.
    The personal allowance was frozen in 2021.
    I accept that pensioners are not the only people affected by this.
    The increase in state pension in 2021 was £229.
    In 2022 it was increased by £289.
    So the £700 I am worse off by, has wiped out both these increases, as well as part of the 2023 increase.
    I suppose that suspending the triple lock in 2022, when inflation was running at 11.1%, didnt help much either.
    Should the "state pension be tax free"? IMO, short answer, yes.

    It is only the extra pensions that should attract tax. I think it is extremely likely that the state pension will become 100% of the tax-free slice. But not over and above that. For a whole variety of reasons. Practical (the cost of deducting) as well as political.

    I know that this Government has announced it intends to freeze tax thresholds for years. But this cretinous Government fails to appreciate that that is not its decision. That will be for the new Government to determine.

    Other Parties than Labour can promise all sorts. Safe in the knowledge that they will never have to deliver. Which is why the Lib Dems will be promising a free unicorn for every voter. And Reform will promise that Johnny Foreigner will be stopped from entering the UK via a force field.

    Either the threshold will rise to keep pace with full State Pension. Or there will be a concession exempting State Pension from exceeding the 0 rate band. My money is on the latter-because it is cheaper.

    And today's pensioners will continue to have advantages that no-one else has had. Or will have. And will continue to claim they are hard done by.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Poor pensioners.

    Or, more accurately, the richer 60% of pensioners-as at least 40% pay no tax at all. And will continue to pay no tax at all. Something that article completely ignored.

    Wealthier pensioners used to have to pay 20% tax on income over and above £12,500. Whereas everyone else had to pay 30%. And this is being adjusted to 20% v 26%.

    Meanwhile, everyone else has to work longer and receive pensions later to pay for current pensioners.

    Who still manage to claim this is somehow unfair. To them. While banging on about frozen tax thresholds. Conveniently forgetting that it applies to everyone else, too.

    The privileged generation. Who steadfastly fail to recognise it.

    I was only arguing that state pension should be tax free.
    It seems pointless to give money out with one hand, and take it back with the other.
    Or perhaps they should increase the triple lock further, to take account of income tax.
    Any pensioner with just about any additional income, will be paying increasing amounts of tax on the additional income since 2021.
    And if nothing changes, all pensioners that receive the maximum payment, will be paying some tax on the state pension from 2025, or 2026.

    I dont have a clue what benefits are available to pensioners, but I think that retiring while having to pay rent would be very difficult, particularly if you were single.

    The reasons for the state pension scheme being in trouble, are obvious.
    Yet the Tories are intent on reducing, and doing away with NI contributions in the longer term.
    Surely the reductions in contributions, can only lead to further increases in the qualifying age for the state pension.

    Given a choice, I am not sure that young people would today vote for relatively small reductions in NI, and having to wait until they are in their 70s to qualify for the state pension.
    If I was a youngster today, I would favour slightly higher contributions, and being able to qualify earlier.

    The triple lock was put in place to protect pensioners.
    Yet the freezing of the tax thresholds has had the opposite effect.
    The effect of this has made people in a similar position to me around £700 per year worse off.
    The personal allowance was frozen in 2021.
    I accept that pensioners are not the only people affected by this.
    The increase in state pension in 2021 was £229.
    In 2022 it was increased by £289.
    So the £700 I am worse off by, has wiped out both these increases, as well as part of the 2023 increase.
    I suppose that suspending the triple lock in 2022, when inflation was running at 11.1%, didnt help much either.
    Should the "state pension be tax free"? IMO, short answer, yes.

    It is only the extra pensions that should attract tax. I think it is extremely likely that the state pension will become 100% of the tax-free slice. But not over and above that. For a whole variety of reasons. Practical (the cost of deducting) as well as political.

    I know that this Government has announced it intends to freeze tax thresholds for years. But this cretinous Government fails to appreciate that that is not its decision. That will be for the new Government to determine.

    Other Parties than Labour can promise all sorts. Safe in the knowledge that they will never have to deliver. Which is why the Lib Dems will be promising a free unicorn for every voter. And Reform will promise that Johnny Foreigner will be stopped from entering the UK via a force field.

    Either the threshold will rise to keep pace with full State Pension. Or there will be a concession exempting State Pension from exceeding the 0 rate band. My money is on the latter-because it is cheaper.

    And today's pensioners will continue to have advantages that no-one else has had. Or will have. And will continue to claim they are hard done by.
    Why would you say that?
    And there are a number of two generations currently claiming state pension, I assume that you are referring to the younger ones, ie those in their late sixties.

  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 36,445
    Essexphil said:

    HAYSIE said:

    Essexphil said:

    Poor pensioners.

    Or, more accurately, the richer 60% of pensioners-as at least 40% pay no tax at all. And will continue to pay no tax at all. Something that article completely ignored.

    Wealthier pensioners used to have to pay 20% tax on income over and above £12,500. Whereas everyone else had to pay 30%. And this is being adjusted to 20% v 26%.

    Meanwhile, everyone else has to work longer and receive pensions later to pay for current pensioners.

    Who still manage to claim this is somehow unfair. To them. While banging on about frozen tax thresholds. Conveniently forgetting that it applies to everyone else, too.

    The privileged generation. Who steadfastly fail to recognise it.

    I was only arguing that state pension should be tax free.
    It seems pointless to give money out with one hand, and take it back with the other.
    Or perhaps they should increase the triple lock further, to take account of income tax.
    Any pensioner with just about any additional income, will be paying increasing amounts of tax on the additional income since 2021.
    And if nothing changes, all pensioners that receive the maximum payment, will be paying some tax on the state pension from 2025, or 2026.

    I dont have a clue what benefits are available to pensioners, but I think that retiring while having to pay rent would be very difficult, particularly if you were single.

    The reasons for the state pension scheme being in trouble, are obvious.
    Yet the Tories are intent on reducing, and doing away with NI contributions in the longer term.
    Surely the reductions in contributions, can only lead to further increases in the qualifying age for the state pension.

    Given a choice, I am not sure that young people would today vote for relatively small reductions in NI, and having to wait until they are in their 70s to qualify for the state pension.
    If I was a youngster today, I would favour slightly higher contributions, and being able to qualify earlier.

    The triple lock was put in place to protect pensioners.
    Yet the freezing of the tax thresholds has had the opposite effect.
    The effect of this has made people in a similar position to me around £700 per year worse off.
    The personal allowance was frozen in 2021.
    I accept that pensioners are not the only people affected by this.
    The increase in state pension in 2021 was £229.
    In 2022 it was increased by £289.
    So the £700 I am worse off by, has wiped out both these increases, as well as part of the 2023 increase.
    I suppose that suspending the triple lock in 2022, when inflation was running at 11.1%, didnt help much either.
    Should the "state pension be tax free"? IMO, short answer, yes.

    It is only the extra pensions that should attract tax. I think it is extremely likely that the state pension will become 100% of the tax-free slice. But not over and above that. For a whole variety of reasons. Practical (the cost of deducting) as well as political.

    I know that this Government has announced it intends to freeze tax thresholds for years. But this cretinous Government fails to appreciate that that is not its decision. That will be for the new Government to determine.

    Other Parties than Labour can promise all sorts. Safe in the knowledge that they will never have to deliver. Which is why the Lib Dems will be promising a free unicorn for every voter. And Reform will promise that Johnny Foreigner will be stopped from entering the UK via a force field.

    Either the threshold will rise to keep pace with full State Pension. Or there will be a concession exempting State Pension from exceeding the 0 rate band. My money is on the latter-because it is cheaper.

    And today's pensioners will continue to have advantages that no-one else has had. Or will have. And will continue to claim they are hard done by.
    That is an assumption that you are making.
    Yet I believe some people already pay tax on their state pension.
    The article below was updated in 2020.

    Why is my friend on a much bigger £250 a week state pension, though I earned more? Steve Webb replies



    For example, in February this year there were nearly 400,000 people with weekly state pensions of more than £250 per week, of whom nearly 70,000 were on more than £300 per week.

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-8627327/Why-does-friend-bigger-state-pension-earned-more.html
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